Minimum wage is already “livable”

[Mac1958]

If we get a French Revolution, it’s because the socialist type Americans are driving this entitlement attitude - convincing uneducated, unskilled people that they are entitled to a middle class life.

You’re saying that they are going to revolt because they don’t like that their job collating xerox copies doesn‘t pay enough for them to rent a nice apartment and buy a car? If so, that’s the fault of people like you.

Sure, I'll take the blame. I know that's how it goes.

 

[rightwinger]

How HORRIBLE of us to suggest that poor people who don’t like having to rent a room and would rather have an apartment take advantage of the free Pell Grants (

Yes, because everyone can be a Rocket Scientist if they only apply themselves

 

[Mac1958]

The people in Paris who started that revolution were literally starving and couldn’t even buy bread. No one in America is in a remotely similar situation.

Everything is relative. I'm sure there's nothing to worry about. And if it happens, it will be someone else's fault.

 

[Anomalism]

Left? That’s why I have a hard time figuring you out!

I also consider myself a nationalist to some extent. I want what's best for this country and the people that live in it. I want us to be strong. I want us to be competitive with China in the future.

 

[Lisa558]

I interrupt this fast-moving thread to ask a question, as I am new here.

I need to step out of here for a few hours and work on my side gig. (I’m retired but do freelance writing to earn extra money.) How involved does the OP have to remain? This is a fast-moving thread, and when I log back on this afternoon, there is no way I can respond to every single post.

Also, unrelated question: I see some people say “love,” and “funny” as a response, rather than just the “thanks” that is available. How do I do that?

OK, that said, I am leaving. Play nice.

 

[Crepitus]

I don't think you've adequately addressed my position.

I think I have, what more do you want? Conservatives are fine of the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" but they forget that tides rise from below. A tide that come from above is a catastrophe, and that's what we've had for the last few decades. Wages/income rising for the top few percent while everyone else stands still, steadily losing ground. Which brings up another conservative favorite: "supply side economics" aka trickle down economics. It doesn't trickle.down, it pools at the top, again leaving everyone but the top few percent sliding down an increasingly steep slope into poverty.

We've tried all those things, and ended up with a society that's massively unequal for the vast majority of the population. So bad in fact that most of the people on government assistance actually do have jobs. It's time the employers took on the burden of feeding their employees instead of the taxpayers. Mandate a living wage now.

 

[Anomalism]

I think I have, what more do you want? Conservatives are fine of the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" but they forget that tides rise from below. A tide that come from above is a catastrophe, and that's what we've had for the last few decades. Wages/income rising for the top few percent while everyone else stands still, steadily losing ground. Which brings up another conservative favorite: "supply side economics" aka trickle down economics. It doesn't trickle.down, it pools at the top, again leaving everyone but the top few percent sliding down an increasingly steep slope into poverty.

We've tried all those things, and ended up with a society that's massively unequal for the vast majority of the population. So bad in fact that most of the people on government assistance actually do have jobs. It's time the employers took on the burden of feeding their employees instead of the taxpayers. Mandate a living wage now.

Our poor people are fat and have iPhones. You can find unfortunate anecdotes for sure, but it would be unfair to our nation to not recognize how good we have it here. I don't like this picture some left-wingers paint that suggests that life is hard and unfair in this country. It's really not if you have a realistic view of history and the world. It's great to push for more and believe that we can do better, but let's also be realistic about where we actually are right now and also where we came from.

 

[bendog]

Starvation isn't a deflection, and that's what many people would face without government assistance. Think, man! We are allowing the corporations to line their pockets with our tax money when we make it possible to pay their employees less than a living wage. Why would you want that to continue?

aside from morality issues, taxpayers are forced to accept higher deficits inorder to support higher corp profits largely for the 1% who pay cap gains rather than income tax after not paying workers enough to not get subsidized food and medical care. That's hardly a free market approach, so complaints that the govt interferes with the labor/capital market are simply bullshit.

 

[Anomalism]

I think I have, what more do you want? Conservatives are fine of the phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" but they forget that tides rise from below. A tide that come from above is a catastrophe, and that's what we've had for the last few decades. Wages/income rising for the top few percent while everyone else stands still, steadily losing ground. Which brings up another conservative favorite: "supply side economics" aka trickle down economics. It doesn't trickle.down, it pools at the top, again leaving everyone but the top few percent sliding down an increasingly steep slope into poverty.

We've tried all those things, and ended up with a society that's massively unequal for the vast majority of the population. So bad in fact that most of the people on government assistance actually do have jobs. It's time the employers took on the burden of feeding their employees instead of the taxpayers. Mandate a living wage now.

Let's use some extreme examples just for the sake of conversation. Let's say we raised the minimum wage to $20 an hour. What kind of impact do you think that might have on the many small businesses in this country? Do you think that might cause a lot of jobs to disappear? How many companies would go out of business? How much opportunity would be lost for poor people that need to develop their experience and work skills? What poor people really need is more opportunity to become valuable to the market. You're removing some of that opportunity when you make labor mandates such as the minimum wage.

 

[Crepitus]

You mistakenly believe we can improve the situation by making minimum wage mandates. There are other ways to approach this situation that I'd be open-minded to. I just think it's very clear to anybody that truly understands economics that a minimum wage is not going to reduce poverty or create more opportunities for poor people.

I don't think I'm mistaken at all. Did the first minimum wage, back in 1838, cause the economy to crash?

No, it didn't.

Did Seattle's economy crash when they raised their minimum wage to $15.00?

No, it didn't.


Some businesses will fail. Others will take their place.

From FDR's speech at the siging of the national recovery act in 1933:

"In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living."

Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library and Museum - Our Documents

docs.fdrlibrary.marist.edu

I agree with the bolded text whole heartedly. My America doesn't exist for it's corporations, it exists for it's people.

 

[Crepitus]

aside from morality issues, taxpayers are forced to accept higher deficits inorder to support higher corp profits largely for the 1% who pay cap gains rather than income tax after not paying workers enough to not get subsidized food and medical care. That's hardly a free market approach, so complaints that the govt interferes with the labor/capital market are simply bullshit.

Well said, Sir.

 

[Lisa558]

Yes, because everyone can be a Rocket Scientist if they only apply themselves

More sarcasm - and excuses, of course. Nobody said rocket scientist. There are tons of vocational certificates available, paid for by taxpayers, to the working poor who have the ambition to better themselves. (And with that, I really do have to get to my side gig.)

Top 51 Online Trade Schools | Open Admissions | In Demand Careers

Looking for online trade schools with open admissions? Discover the top 51 schools for 2024. Begin your career journey now!

www.educationconnection.com

 

[Grumblenuts]

I’m just helping you out with your condescending blame the victim rant.
The poor people have it too good screed

It is easy for you to look down on people and sneer that they shouldn’t have children, have any time off, should be happy with three hots and a cot, any enjoyment in life is a travesty

Seriously, what a good-ole-days whiner fest! Limbaugh played 'em like a fiddle. Now Trump as well. Just liberals this and liberals that. Smear, smear, spam, and smear! Not an honest point or clue in sight.

 

[bripat9643]

COMMIES!
Its the COMMIES I say!

Yes, you are.

 

[Crepitus]

Let's use some extreme examples just for the sake of conversation. Let's say we raised the minimum wage to $20 an hour. What kind of impact do you think that might have on the many small businesses in this country? Do you think that might cause a lot of jobs to disappear? How many companies would go out of business? How much opportunity would be lost for poor people that need to develop their experience and work skills? What poor people really need is more opportunity to become valuable to the market. You're removing some of that opportunity when you make labor mandates such as the minimum wage.

Sure, some companies will fail. Others with better busy models will replace them. Most companies will adapt, and the market will be stronger for it. Starvation wages are not an opportunity for anyone.

 

[Anomalism]

I don't think I'm mistaken at all. Did the first minimum wage, back in 1838, cause the economy to crash?

No, it didn't.

Did Seattle's economy crash when they raised their minimum wage to $15.00?

No,

A minimum wage definitely won't destroy our economy. I'm just arguing that the situation is better for poor people looking to develop their skills when they have more opportunities to work wherever they want for whoever they want and for however much money they want.

 

[Independent thinker]

I keep hearing the left say that minimum wage, which is what the lowest 2% of Americans earn, needs to be increased to where it provides a “livable“ wage. The disconnect comes in what is considered livable - even for teens who barely squeaked through high school and have no job skills beyond that which can be taught to a middle schooler in half a day.

The left considers “livable” to be a middle class existence - a decent one-bedroom apartment, a car, a vacation. Where they miss is that is the level to which people should ASPIRE, and the desire to do so is what incentivizes one to get some vocational training (at a minimum).

To me, “livable” is how every member of my family lived when we were first starting out: either renting a room in someone’s house, or sharing a two- or three-bedroom apartment with others. I considered myself “living” doing that - I took the subway to work, did my job, bought groceries, and other basics.

And THAT is the lifestyle of someone right out of college, earning starting wages, or of a new high school graduate who has no real job skills to offer. In the case of the former, it will be temporary; in the case of the latter, it is rarely permanent as most people acquire job skills with experience.

I think it all boils down to jealousy of the rich. As long as there are multi-millionaires, billionaires, and maybe even trillionaires, then the poor aren't making a living wage.

 

[bripat9643]

They will just sell the food you give them and spend the money on cheap whisky and cigarettes. You know how poor people are.

I have a better idea

We lock the dumpsters behind McDonalds. If poor people come and sweep the parking lots and wash the windows, we let them pick out what they want from the dumpster

We can also set up a road kill distribution center where deserving poor people can pick out squashed squirrels, raccoons and possums.
Why let good meat go to waste?

I've read a lot of stories were people went up to some homeless guy with a sign saying "will work for food" and tried to give them a bag of McDonalds, and they just sneered at it. What they really wanted was money for drugs and alcohol.

 

[Anomalism]

Sure, some companies will fail. Others with better busy models will replace them. Most companies will adapt, and the market will be stronger for it. Starvation wages are not an opportunity for anyone.

I think you underestimate how close a lot of small businesses cut their profits. A lot of jobs and opportunity would be lost with a $20 an hour minimum wage.

 

[Crepitus]

Our poor people are fat and have iPhones.

Not really the point of this discussion, but wouldn't you rather the companies they work for paid for these things instead of taxes?