More Proof the skeptics are WINNING!!

[flacaltenn]

FCT, I gotta say that the level of response you've made to IfItzMe's calculations just don't hold up. The case he's presented is as solid and as airtight as such things can get. Celebrating cold weather in Europe at this point (and encouraging Skookerasbil in ANYTHING) is more than a little... disappointing.

I didn't and wont' response to a rude phoney jerk who hijacks a thread and then pretends he's solving a climate model..

What he's done is to create a souffle of numbers. His "curve fittting" synthesis add 2 temperature function to 2 power power functions... You can DO THAT? And he used a tool to find ONE CURVE fit when the same techniques can give you MORE THAN ONE..

Mr SnowJob accused me TWICE of not providing a cite that was RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS carrot-like beak.. AND -- refused to acknowledged even that trivial error. THEN he launches into a tangental and non-original cooking demonstration.. What does that say?

Don't spread this little dust-up into EVERY OTHER THREAD and reduce the enjoyment for others. And Quit BADGERING ME when YOU really didn't follow-thru our discussion of the IPCC's lies about forcings either.

This is not a soap opera to me. It IS too confrontational and bloody.. But that's not my fault.

We done???

 

[PMZ]

Intelligent folks will notice what's not given in pontifications like this.

Alternatives.

Burn fossil fuels until they're gone then return to the caves is not an alternative except to conservatives and lower primates who think that cave living was the ultimate in progress.

So, we ignore them. We keep them out of office and separated from responsibility.

While they loudly proclaim that they want to go backwards in time to when their ideas were relevant, we just move forward. Leave them here or whatever.

They are not our problem.

Endangering bird species and aquatic mammals is not the problem of the wind and tides turbine folks, either. They pretend their experimental water turbines did not endanger 2 local fish species and one specie of seals that were confused by all that racket. Local economies were dependent on tourists who came to enjoy their unique fish and see the odd but friendly seals. Not one word of apology has been issued by the Green Industry for its decimation, and in the west, raptors such as the ospreys are increasingly found dead beneath massive wind turbines directly in their food migration paths. Again, no nothing out of the greenies. And PETA? Never been quieter, but they will run naked in the park if you wear your grandmother's mink stole on a blustery cold day.

Endangered species are unfit species. They only get in our way and have cost us thousands of jobs and the revenue from the resources they restrict. Repeal this act. It's all about hoarding. The spoiled sissy treehuggers are upper-class mutants who hate the human race out of jealousy. Crush these degenerates!

The alarmist scare story that one of these species might provide the only cure for cancer
can be rebutted, if the Greenies want to play that game, with the fact that one of the worthless species they save may be the only host for a mass-killer uncurable virus.

The concern of liberals is to keep homo sapien sapien off of the endangered species list. If we fail, we'll be the first species ever to self extinct.

 

[itfitzme]

FCT, I gotta say that the level of response you've made to IfItzMe's calculations just don't hold up. The case he's presented is as solid and as airtight as such things can get. Celebrating cold weather in Europe at this point (and encouraging Skookerasbil in ANYTHING) is more than a little... disappointing.

I didn't and wont' response to a rude phoney jerk who hijacks a thread and then pretends he's solving a climate model..

What he's done is to create a souffle of numbers. His "curve fittting" synthesis add 2 temperature function to 2 power power functions... You can DO THAT? And he used a tool to find ONE CURVE fit when the same techniques can give you MORE THAN ONE..

Mr SnowJob accused me TWICE of not providing a cite that was RIGHT IN FRONT OF HIS carrot-like beak.. AND -- refused to acknowledged even that trivial error. THEN he launches into a tangental and non-original cooking demonstration.. What does that say?

Don't spread this little dust-up into EVERY OTHER THREAD and reduce the enjoyment for others. And Quit BADGERING ME when YOU really didn't follow-thru our discussion of the IPCC's lies about forcings either.

This is not a soap opera to me. It IS too confrontational and bloody.. But that's not my fault.

We done???

Your ignorance knows no bounds. You have yet to produce anything of actual substance and meaning, let alone accuracy and precision.

The reason that your responses are "I won't respond" and "Mr SnowJob" is because you have nothing else to respond with. I'm still waiting for your model. I find the very concept laughable and you so terribly hurt by this. Still, you have nothing, just whining like the little girl you are.

And, anyone can search on mine and your posts and will easily find that at the very beginning, you, like your denialist wacknut buddies, was the first to use the second person pronoun. Basically, you can dish it out but you can't take it. Why is that? Oh, cuz you are a whiny little girl.

Again, curve fitting is what you wanted to do with the Fourier series which I demonstrated as simply being correlation on otherwise irrelevant curves, a series of cosine and sine functions. It is useful in applications like electronic communications because there are definitive frequency responses. It has no place in building a climate model because there are no definitive frequency responses. The closest were gonna get to that is the AMO and other similar oscillations. These are, though, not oscillations that are amenable to a Fourier transform because they have a randomly changing phase.

You obviously can't do actual physics and math calculations as testified by your "add 2 temperature function to 2 power power functions". It is a meaningless comment as the constants have units.

If you can prove otherwise by producing a better model, by all means do so.

Oh, wait, what's that....you can't?

 

[flacaltenn]

Fourier synthesis or analysis is NOT curve-fitting.. It is a reversible transformation in a time/frequency manner. It is an alternate REVERSIBLE description of a data series. And it NOT (again) the same as correlation.

"the constants have units" ---- maybe true, but no model to produce or verify the magnitude or causality. Determining the REAL constants and causality is the diff between models and number souflees...

And only an arrogant phoney would claim to have produced a "climate model" out of some curve fitting exercises.

Just leave it grasshopper... I don't want more bloodshed on this forum.. Not a "whiny little girl" --- I just have more perspective on why I'm here at USMB than you do.. Engaging in more than 1 beat-down a day isn't it...

 

[PMZ]

Fourier synthesis or analysis is NOT curve-fitting.. It is a reversible transformation in a time/frequency manner. It is an alternate REVERSIBLE description of a data series. And it NOT (again) the same as correlation.

"the constants have units" ---- maybe true, but no model to produce or verify the magnitude or causality. Determining the REAL constants and causality is the diff between models and number souflees...

Just leave it grasshopper... I don't want more bloodshed on this forum..

You are saying that Fourier Transforms are not fitting multiple sine curves to a more complex waveform?

What kind of medical devices do you design? I want to make sure that I avoid them.

 

[flacaltenn]

Fourier synthesis or analysis is NOT curve-fitting.. It is a reversible transformation in a time/frequency manner. It is an alternate REVERSIBLE description of a data series. And it NOT (again) the same as correlation.

"the constants have units" ---- maybe true, but no model to produce or verify the magnitude or causality. Determining the REAL constants and causality is the diff between models and number souflees...

Just leave it grasshopper... I don't want more bloodshed on this forum..

You are saying that Fourier Transforms are not fitting multiple sine curves to a more complex waveform?

What kind of medical devices do you design? I want to make sure that I avoid them.

You're missing the part where the transform basis is UNIQUELY CHOSEN for the task. The reason a complement of complex sine/cosine with varying FREQUENCIES compose the basis set is to acheive the goal of transforming the data from the current domain into a UNIQUE alternative domain (time / frequency) . Additionally, they are NOT ARBITRARY components of a fit. They are chosen because they are ORTHOGONAL and MINIMALLY CORRELATED. It is NOT curve fitting.

It is not "curve fitting" when you reassemble all those coefficients. It is true synthesis of the original waveform..

Correlation only produces MAGNITUDE results. Fourier transform yields a complex result that preserves MAGNITUDE and PHASE..

Too late --- you've probably already been diagnosed or treated with one of my designs..

 

[itfitzme]

Fourier synthesis or analysis is NOT curve-fitting.. It is a reversible transformation in a time/frequency manner. It is an alternate REVERSIBLE description of a data series. And it NOT (again) the same as correlation.

"the constants have units" ---- maybe true, but no model to produce or verify the magnitude or causality. Determining the REAL constants and causality is the diff between models and number souflees...

And only an arrogant phoney would claim to have produced a "climate model" out of some curve fitting exercises.

Just leave it grasshopper... I don't want more bloodshed on this forum.. Not a "whiny little girl" --- I just have more perspective on why I'm here at USMB than you do.. Engaging in more than 1 beat-down a day isn't it...

Yes it is, especially in the manner you wan't to fit the curves. You are taking a series of sinusoids of increasing frequency and attempting to fit them to the natural process. This, of course, makes absolutely no sense because there is no underlying reason for doing so.

Your premise was that a Fourier series can create a ramp. The problem is that it creates an oscillating ramp that decreases at the end of the cycle. And, it requires an infinite series to do so.

What I did was to determine the best estimate of the parameters that account for the effect of real processes. The AMO is not some phony sinusoid, it is a real process. The TSI is not some phony sinusoid, it is a real process. CO2 is not some phony sinusoid, it is a real process.

By all means, we are all excitedly waiting to see your model.

Oh, and if you want more precise numbers, I suggest you read the IPCC website.

 

[itfitzme]

Fourier synthesis or analysis is NOT curve-fitting.. It is a reversible transformation in a time/frequency manner. It is an alternate REVERSIBLE description of a data series. And it NOT (again) the same as correlation.

"the constants have units" ---- maybe true, but no model to produce or verify the magnitude or causality. Determining the REAL constants and causality is the diff between models and number souflees...

And only an arrogant phoney would claim to have produced a "climate model" out of some curve fitting exercises.

Just leave it grasshopper... I don't want more bloodshed on this forum.. Not a "whiny little girl" --- I just have more perspective on why I'm here at USMB than you do.. Engaging in more than 1 beat-down a day isn't it...

You claim to be a programmer? Really, are all programmers as dumb as you?

 

[Mertex]

More bad news for the climate crusading nutters.......


Less people than ever believe in global warming!!!


What climate change? Fewer people than EVER believe the world is really warming up | UK | News | Daily Express


As Ive said many times and been 100% accurate......nobody cares about the science!!

Youl'' always have a certain number of people that will ignore the facts....much like they ignored the polls that showed Romney was losing. 95% of scientists surely trump a bunch of know-nothings that rely on weather conditions right at the moment, instead of through the years. Likewise these fools believe the world is only 6 thousand years old.

You can't teach them anything, they'll continue to believe whatever their leaders tell them, however, facts are facts and eventually they will come to the realization that it was indeed true, but it will be too late, like with Romney losing


Some climate-change deniers have looked at 95 percent and scoffed. After all, most people wouldn't get on a plane that had only a 95 percent certainty of landing safely, risk experts say.

But in science, 95 percent certainty is often considered the gold standard for certainty.
What 95% Certainty of Global Warming Means to Scientists - weather.com Melting, or NOT?

 

[PMZ]

More bad news for the climate crusading nutters.......


Less people than ever believe in global warming!!!


What climate change? Fewer people than EVER believe the world is really warming up | UK | News | Daily Express


As Ive said many times and been 100% accurate......nobody cares about the science!!

Youl'' always have a certain number of people that will ignore the facts....much like they ignored the polls that showed Romney was losing. 95% of scientists surely trump a bunch of know-nothings that rely on weather conditions right at the moment, instead of through the years. Likewise these fools believe the world is only 6 thousand years old.

You can't teach them anything, they'll continue to believe whatever their leaders tell them, however, facts are facts and eventually they will come to the realization that it was indeed true, but it will be too late, like with Romney losing


Some climate-change deniers have looked at 95 percent and scoffed. After all, most people wouldn't get on a plane that had only a 95 percent certainty of landing safely, risk experts say.

But in science, 95 percent certainty is often considered the gold standard for certainty.
What 95% Certainty of Global Warming Means to Scientists - weather.com Melting, or NOT?

Ever see Jimmy Kimmel's man on the street? That’s the level of ignorance that we've descended to here.

 

[itfitzme]

Fourier synthesis or analysis is NOT curve-fitting.. It is a reversible transformation in a time/frequency manner. It is an alternate REVERSIBLE description of a data series. And it NOT (again) the same as correlation.

"the constants have units" ---- maybe true, but no model to produce or verify the magnitude or causality. Determining the REAL constants and causality is the diff between models and number souflees...

And only an arrogant phoney would claim to have produced a "climate model" out of some curve fitting exercises.

Just leave it grasshopper... I don't want more bloodshed on this forum.. Not a "whiny little girl" --- I just have more perspective on why I'm here at USMB than you do.. Engaging in more than 1 beat-down a day isn't it...

We can do the same with sinc functions, creating a set of orthogonal functions. We can use any set of orthogonal functions to transfer from time domain to another frequency domain. We can use complex frequency.

The reason for using frequency domain is because in electrical and electronic engineering, it makes calculations much simpler.

And it is still correlations, fitting an infinite set of orthogonal functions (curves) to the original signal.

So? Based on what rational, to achieve what model, are you doing this correlation curve fitting?

The problem you have is you can't bullshit me. You may be able to bullshit yourself, your denialist buddies, and even some of the less experienced. But you can't bullshit me.

Cuz so far, we see no model, just word salad.

 

[freedombecki]

Endangering bird species and aquatic mammals is not the problem of the wind and tides turbine folks, either. They pretend their experimental water turbines did not endanger 2 local fish species and one specie of seals that were confused by all that racket. Local economies were dependent on tourists who came to enjoy their unique fish and see the odd but friendly seals. Not one word of apology has been issued by the Green Industry for its decimation, and in the west, raptors such as the ospreys are increasingly found dead beneath massive wind turbines directly in their food migration paths. Again, no nothing out of the greenies. And PETA? Never been quieter, but they will run naked in the park if you wear your grandmother's mink stole on a blustery cold day.

Endangered species are unfit species. They only get in our way and have cost us thousands of jobs and the revenue from the resources they restrict. Repeal this act. It's all about hoarding. The spoiled sissy treehuggers are upper-class mutants who hate the human race out of jealousy. Crush these degenerates!

The alarmist scare story that one of these species might provide the only cure for cancer
can be rebutted, if the Greenies want to play that game, with the fact that one of the worthless species they save may be the only host for a mass-killer uncurable virus.

The concern of liberals is to keep homo sapien sapien off of the endangered species list. If we fail, we'll be the first species ever to self extinct.

Endangered species are unfit species. They only get in our way and have cost us thousands of jobs and the revenue from the resources they restrict.

The concern of liberals is to keep homo sapien sapien off of the endangered species list. If we fail, we'll be the first species ever to self extinct.

Is that so?

 

[skookerasbil]

More bad news for the climate crusading nutters.......


Less people than ever believe in global warming!!!


What climate change? Fewer people than EVER believe the world is really warming up | UK | News | Daily Express


As Ive said many times and been 100% accurate......nobody cares about the science!!

Youl'' always have a certain number of people that will ignore the facts....much like they ignored the polls that showed Romney was losing. 95% of scientists surely trump a bunch of know-nothings that rely on weather conditions right at the moment, instead of through the years. Likewise these fools believe the world is only 6 thousand years old.

You can't teach them anything, they'll continue to believe whatever their leaders tell them, however, facts are facts and eventually they will come to the realization that it was indeed true, but it will be too late, like with Romney losing


Some climate-change deniers have looked at 95 percent and scoffed. After all, most people wouldn't get on a plane that had only a 95 percent certainty of landing safely, risk experts say.

But in science, 95 percent certainty is often considered the gold standard for certainty.
What 95% Certainty of Global Warming Means to Scientists - weather.com Melting, or NOT?

But nobody cares.......because the political link is inescapable......something the climate crusaders have trouble grasping. The 95% certainty in the scientific community is about as notable as people having the opinion that the show "Mountain Men" is outstanding. Nobody cares. If people cared, the 95% would be having a significant impact on energy production. Its not. Not even in the ballpark.......as has been demonstrated numerous times just within this thread. The fact is......people are already whacked over the head with high energy costs.......they don't want it to double which is exactly what happens with a carbon tax. Which is why Cap and Trade is as dead as a doornail in the United States. People care about global warming......up until its time to open their wallet at which time their attitude becomes "meh". I cant help it if people in the climate change community have the political IQ's of a bunch of small soap dishes. It doesn't wash politically and never will.......imagine the political leader standing up and saying, "Yep.....we MUST do something about climate change.......but ummm.......your electricity rates are going to double!!! I hope you'll give me your vote!!"

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

There is lots of Democratic celebrating going on around the country at the Republican Party's latest shot in their foot. I hope that the short term emotional euphoria doesn't replace in any way the long term rational result that's infinitely more important.

Voting Dixiecrats out of office. They are an extreme danger to democracy and progress and we simply can't afford them.

What you're all celebrating is the demise of the United States. You made it clear that getting control of spending is an impossible task because the parasites are firmly in control. History demonstrates that opportunist politicians will ride the death spiral all the way to the ground. Democracy is a self-limiting disease. This one is headed for extinction.

No. We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

That’s why we're focused on undoing the conservative pathogen by rebuilding an economy robust enough to pay for the government we want, we've built, and we voted for.

We want everyone to win. Not just the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, a concept that's clearly beyond your comprehension.

We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

When did Bush ever practice austerity?
And which mythical European nation practiced austerity that ruined their economy?

Names and numbers, not just your usual silly blather.

 

[polarbear]

Less people than ever believe in global warming!!!
/QUOTE]
Der Spiegel published this article today:
Umbau des Uno-Klimarats: Klimabericht des IPCC Arbeitsgruppe 2 - SPIEGEL ONLINE

IPCC: Uno-Forscher wollen große Klimaberichte abschaffen

Hamburg/Batumi - Zum 25. Geburtstag kamen kaum Gäste, es wurde nur Wasser gereicht. Der Ehrentag des Klimarats der Vereinten Nationen (IPCC) wurde am Freitag mit einer spärlich besuchten Pressekonferenz in der georgischen Stadt Batumi begangen, auf der die Ergebnisse der 37. IPCC-Hauptversammlung vorgestellt wurden. Es wirkte wie ein Abgesang auf jene Organisation, die 2007 immerhin mit dem Friedensnobelpreis geehrt wurde. Einen weiteren großen Klimareport wird es womöglich nicht mehr geben.

It`s a long article and I won`t quote & translate the whole thing, just the main points

The IPCC decided to no longer publish lengthy reports after a disappointing meeting. Because hardly any of the international press and other invited guests showed up at their 25th meeting in Batumi Georgia.
Internal, behind closed doors IPCC discussions have been leaked to the press. In it the IPCC fears that irreparable damage had been done to it`s credibility when it allowed the publication of reports that were largely based on "grey information".
Any future reports will be more limited in scope to minimize the chance of more glaring errors and what critics called the "Muenchausen effect"
In the German language the "Muenchausen" effect is a term borrowed from a children`s fairy tale book about Baron Muenchausen, a liar or somebody that exaggerates.
Turns out that independent scientists had submitted over 55000 papers outlining errors in the last report to the IPCC .

 

[PMZ]

What you're all celebrating is the demise of the United States. You made it clear that getting control of spending is an impossible task because the parasites are firmly in control. History demonstrates that opportunist politicians will ride the death spiral all the way to the ground. Democracy is a self-limiting disease. This one is headed for extinction.

No. We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

That’s why we're focused on undoing the conservative pathogen by rebuilding an economy robust enough to pay for the government we want, we've built, and we voted for.

We want everyone to win. Not just the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, a concept that's clearly beyond your comprehension.

We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

When did Bush ever practice austerity?
And which mythical European nation practiced austerity that ruined their economy?

Names and numbers, not just your usual silly blather.

Good point. He never even considered it. But what he did do is to kill revenue as a gift to friends and family. That was exactly the same effect that European austerity had. To kill revenue by letting the economy remain in recession longer.

Conservative in Europe and here have the same scotoma. All they know is cutting government services. One solution fits all.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

No. We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

That’s why we're focused on undoing the conservative pathogen by rebuilding an economy robust enough to pay for the government we want, we've built, and we voted for.

We want everyone to win. Not just the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, a concept that's clearly beyond your comprehension.

We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

When did Bush ever practice austerity?
And which mythical European nation practiced austerity that ruined their economy?

Names and numbers, not just your usual silly blather.

Good point. He never even considered it. But what he did do is to kill revenue as a gift to friends and family. That was exactly the same effect that European austerity had. To kill revenue by letting the economy remain in recession longer.

Conservative in Europe and here have the same scotoma. All they know is cutting government services. One solution fits all.

But what he did do is to kill revenue as a gift to friends and family.

Increased revenue was killing revenue? How so?

That was exactly the same effect that European austerity had.

Which European countries used austerity? What % of spending did they cut?
Show me, don't just make a baseless claim.
I know the MSM talked about European austerity, but they're really bad with numbers.

All they know is cutting government services.

That's awful. So how much did they cut? Numbers please, not just your feelings that they must have cut.

 

[skookerasbil]

More k00k losing.........

Remember Al Gore and all the hysteria about extreme weather. Some boardmembers in here were also hysterical warning of weirder, wilder and fcukkedupoutofthisworldmessedup weather.


But guess what?


more losing



New Study: ’2013 ranks as one of the least extreme U.S. weather years ever’– Many bad weather events at ‘historically low levels’


New Study: ?2013 ranks as one of the least extreme U.S. weather years ever?? Many bad weather events at ?historically low levels? | Climate Depot




These dopes and their predictions fall flat on their face ALL THE TIME and they are still undaunted!!!

 

[PMZ]

Less people than ever believe in global warming!!!
/QUOTE]
Der Spiegel published this article today:
Umbau des Uno-Klimarats: Klimabericht des IPCC Arbeitsgruppe 2 - SPIEGEL ONLINE

IPCC: Uno-Forscher wollen große Klimaberichte abschaffen

Hamburg/Batumi - Zum 25. Geburtstag kamen kaum Gäste, es wurde nur Wasser gereicht. Der Ehrentag des Klimarats der Vereinten Nationen (IPCC) wurde am Freitag mit einer spärlich besuchten Pressekonferenz in der georgischen Stadt Batumi begangen, auf der die Ergebnisse der 37. IPCC-Hauptversammlung vorgestellt wurden. Es wirkte wie ein Abgesang auf jene Organisation, die 2007 immerhin mit dem Friedensnobelpreis geehrt wurde. Einen weiteren großen Klimareport wird es womöglich nicht mehr geben.

It`s a long article and I won`t quote & translate the whole thing, just the main points

The IPCC decided to no longer publish lengthy reports after a disappointing meeting. Because hardly any of the international press and other invited guests showed up at their 25th meeting in Batumi Georgia.
Internal, behind closed doors IPCC discussions have been leaked to the press. In it the IPCC fears that irreparable damage had been done to it`s credibility when it allowed the publication of reports that were largely based on "grey information".
Any future reports will be more limited in scope to minimize the chance of more glaring errors and what critics called the "Muenchausen effect"
In the German language the "Muenchausen" effect is a term borrowed from a children`s fairy tale book about Baron Muenchausen, a liar or somebody that exaggerates.
Turns out that independent scientists had submitted over 55000 papers outlining errors in the last report to the IPCC .

Big news like this for sure will be reported in legitimate media soon. Can't wait to see it.

 

[PMZ]

We learned from Europe that the austerity pill was exactly the same kind of medicine that the Bushwacker overdosed us on and almost killed us.

When did Bush ever practice austerity?
And which mythical European nation practiced austerity that ruined their economy?

Names and numbers, not just your usual silly blather.

Good point. He never even considered it. But what he did do is to kill revenue as a gift to friends and family. That was exactly the same effect that European austerity had. To kill revenue by letting the economy remain in recession longer.

Conservative in Europe and here have the same scotoma. All they know is cutting government services. One solution fits all.

But what he did do is to kill revenue as a gift to friends and family.

Increased revenue was killing revenue? How so?

That was exactly the same effect that European austerity had.

Which European countries used austerity? What % of spending did they cut?
Show me, don't just make a baseless claim.
I know the MSM talked about European austerity, but they're really bad with numbers.

All they know is cutting government services.

That's awful. So how much did they cut? Numbers please, not just your feelings that they must have cut.

You acting ignorant is a bad act for you. Natural, perhaps, but ineffective.

What was Federal government revenue for fiscal 2001 compared to fiscal 2009?

Are you going to claim that Fox News did not report the response of Greece and Germany and Italy to Bush's Great Recession? What were they thinking?