Nice people can choose to reject god and go to hell

[Osomir]

So my take on Christian theology is a little controversial in terms of orthodoxy. However, I would disagree with the premise of the thread. Within Christianity (accepting for a moment that the bible is the word of god), I tend to be much more of a universalist. I don't think anyone goes to hell for ever, and find our english translation of the Greek word "aeon" into forever as misleading and irreconcilable with the rest of the Bible.

A couple of premises based on this notion:

1.) I don't find free will Biblical. I think that while we have a will, as humans, we cannot choose good without God's grace, which is why belief in God is a gift and not something that we earn through our actions. I also think that this is why Christians should be incredibly humble and not self-righteous about their faith. Sometimes I think that some may take their gift from God for granted and stray into the realm of thinking that they actually did something to deserve it. You didn't. It wasn't your choice, it was Gods.

2.) While those who don't make it into the book of life will suffer a loss, I feel that they will be save through fire, there are two main elements of cleansing in the bible: Fire and water and the lake of fire in which they are cast into utilizes both (Hell is thrown in there in the Bible too).

3.) Kind of going with the lack of free will thing the Bible does say that God will do all his pleasure, and later on it says that he wills all mankind to be saved, the Bible also states that every knee shall bow and all tongues shall swear that Jesus is God, so that rather also takes care of the OP's concern with people not recognizing Jesus and God. Really what the premise of an infinite Hell for non-believers rests on within Christianity is that: A.) We as humans have the power to frustrate Gods will and prevent him from carrying it out; and B.) That there is some magical point in which accepting Jesus comes too late to matter. Since no one can say that Jesus is God except through the Holy Ghost and all will acknowledge Jesus as God I don't think that constitutes as being "too late".

A pretty quick overview of things given the scriptural complexities of the universalist argument, but it has always been very appealing to me scripturally.

 

[LuckyDuck01!]

Well, LittleNipper, I don't and never have, believed in deities (despite many trying to shove it down my throat as a kid, teen and adult) and I have been quite happy in my life. One doesn't need an invisible deity to be happy, only be happy with yourself and those around you.

 

[hobelim]

No worries!!!! Those that reject god and god's love will understand hell all to well for all eternity the split second after they die and open their eyes and see and feel the flames!!! Far too late then.

It always amuses me the obvious joy so-called Christians like you get out of imagining other people in hell.

Gism is a mindless worm who made an ass out of himself for over a decade on the US and UK yahoo message boards. He is a pathetic fat old man who fancies himself a son of God and quite the ladies man who is hoarding gold and playing tennis and patiently waiting with deranged anticipation to float up into the sky to rule the earth for an eternity ANY MINUTE with his beloved triune mangod while he watches everyone who ever made fun of him or took the time to point out that he is insane burn in flames forever.


You may not believe in hell, but gism, and everyone whose mind is filled with similar irrational confusion so completely detached from reality is already in it.

What he believes never happened what he hopes for will never come and everything that does exist he either denies or denounces as evil. He is terrified of his own mind and believes that any rational thought or doubt about the garbage that fills his addled head is a satanic attack from the devil himself,

If that isn't a perfect description of hell, what is?

 

[AVG-JOE]

So my take on Christian theology is a little controversial in terms of orthodoxy. However, I would disagree with the premise of the thread. Within Christianity (accepting for a moment that the bible is the word of god), I tend to be much more of a universalist. I don't think anyone goes to hell for ever, and find our english translation of the Greek word "aeon" into forever as misleading and irreconcilable with the rest of the Bible.

A couple of premises based on this notion:

1.) I don't find free will Biblical. I think that while we have a will, as humans, we cannot choose good without God's grace, which is why belief in God is a gift and not something that we earn through our actions. I also think that this is why Christians should be incredibly humble and not self-righteous about their faith. Sometimes I think that some may take their gift from God for granted and stray into the realm of thinking that they actually did something to deserve it. You didn't. It wasn't your choice, it was Gods.

2.) While those who don't make it into the book of life will suffer a loss, I feel that they will be save through fire, there are two main elements of cleansing in the bible: Fire and water and the lake of fire in which they are cast into utilizes both (Hell is thrown in there in the Bible too).

3.) Kind of going with the lack of free will thing the Bible does say that God will do all his pleasure, and later on it says that he wills all mankind to be saved, the Bible also states that every knee shall bow and all tongues shall swear that Jesus is God, so that rather also takes care of the OP's concern with people not recognizing Jesus and God. Really what the premise of an infinite Hell for non-believers rests on within Christianity is that: A.) We as humans have the power to frustrate Gods will and prevent him from carrying it out; and B.) That there is some magical point in which accepting Jesus comes too late to matter. Since no one can say that Jesus is God except through the Holy Ghost and all will acknowledge Jesus as God I don't think that constitutes as being "too late".

A pretty quick overview of things given the scriptural complexities of the universalist argument, but it has always been very appealing to me scripturally.

Uhhhhh...... Sorry, Bro'... You lost me there...

 

[Osomir]

Uhhhhh...... Sorry, Bro'... You lost me there...

Eh, just because we don't believe in it doesn't mean we can't have a discussion concerning it from the standpoint of a few premises.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Hmmmmmmm... Walk a mile in another Monkey's moccasins, eh?




I like it!

 

[Osomir]

Hmmmmmmm... Walk a mile in another Monkey's moccasins, eh?




I like it!

I did the angry atheist thing for a while way back in the early years of high school, but honestly, arguing from a place of anger really limits your ability to understand a thing. It narrows your focus too much and causes you to see exactly what it is you want to see instead of what all is actually there. After I let the anger go and started looking objectively at Biblical scripture with an open mind, I was amazed at how my understanding of Biblical theology changed. I feel much more comfortable with Biblical scripture now than I ever did as a Christian; and to be honest, I like the message that I see in the bible a lot more now than I ever did as a Christian.

I enjoy discussing theology and religion in general, and in order to do that with a wider and more diverse audience (other than only with other angry atheists) it helps to be willing to try to see things from the eyes of the faithful. Genuine and curious vs. bitter and hateful. I'll take the former.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Hmmmmmmm... Walk a mile in another Monkey's moccasins, eh?




I like it!

I did the angry atheist thing for a while way back in the early years of high school, but honestly, arguing from a place of anger really limits your ability to understand a thing. It narrows your focus too much and causes you to see exactly what it is you want to see instead of what all is actually there. After I let the anger go and started looking objectively at Biblical scripture with an open mind, I was amazed at how my understanding of Biblical theology changed. I feel much more comfortable with Biblical scripture now than I ever did as a Christian; and to be honest, I like the message that I see in the bible a lot more now than I ever did as a Christian.

I enjoy discussing theology and religion in general, and in order to do that with a wider and more diverse audience (other than only with other angry atheists) it helps to be willing to try to see things from the eyes of the faithful. Genuine and curious vs. bitter and hateful. I'll take the former.

It is a fallacy to allege that Atheists are "angry". The vast majority are normal people who get on with their lives. In this respect they are similar to everyone else. Granted there is a small vocal minority but it is no different to any other when it comes to advocating for their position. So this "bitterness & hatred" goes both ways. Like you, I prefer discussing issues with sane rational people instead.

 

[Osomir]

It is a fallacy to allege that Atheists are "angry".

Then it's a good thing I didn't do any such thing.

 

[Hollie]

Happier.

And terrified.

Complete control of ones own life, and the responsibility that comes with it, is scary




Worth it, but scary.

Nicely stated.

There is no requirement for gods for there to be a purpose or "meaning" in life. One's purpose in life may be incremental and limited but may be of considerable consequence, both in the present and to posterity. Now that the universe has achieved sentience (assuming for the moment we are the only sentient beings), we may be that which defines "purposefulness" within existence. So our existence certainly does matter, and the answers will be interesting to seek and to find.

But the struggle over questions surrounding our place in the universe -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Maybe in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider exploring that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. Driving into the intellectual cul-de-sac of "the gods did it" and not taking responsibility for our existence is draining of the human need to explore. I applaud taking responsibility and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And really, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).

 

[Derideo_Te]

It is a fallacy to allege that Atheists are "angry".

Then it's a good thing I didn't do any such thing.

Would you care to clarify what you were implying by the follow statement?

I enjoy discussing theology and religion in general, and in order to do that with a wider and more diverse audience (other than only with other angry atheists) it helps to be willing to try to see things from the eyes of the faithful. Genuine and curious vs. bitter and hateful. I'll take the former.

 

[dilloduck]

Happier.

And terrified.

Complete control of ones own life, and the responsibility that comes with it, is scary




Worth it, but scary.

Nicely stated.

There is no requirement for gods for there to be a purpose or "meaning" in life. One's purpose in life may be incremental and limited but may be of considerable consequence, both in the present and to posterity. Now that the universe has achieved sentience (assuming for the moment we are the only sentient beings), we may be that which defines "purposefulness" within existence. So our existence certainly does matter, and the answers will be interesting to seek and to find.

But the struggle over questions surrounding our place in the universe -- in fact, pondering all great mysteries -- is the real thing that sets us above the animals. Maybe in the end, sentient life is the universe's way of trying to understand itself. But I consider exploring that a noble struggle, and don't diminish it in any way. Driving into the intellectual cul-de-sac of "the gods did it" and not taking responsibility for our existence is draining of the human need to explore. I applaud taking responsibility and it makes me feel good about the human condition. And really, what is more courageous than saying, "I want to know the truth?" (wherever it leads).

There is no meaning or purpose. Declaring life to be a mystery only serves to prolong the inevitable. Humans handle the futility by creating drama. Science drama---God drama.

 

[Osomir]

It is a fallacy to allege that Atheists are "angry".

Then it's a good thing I didn't do any such thing.

Would you care to clarify what you were implying by the follow statement?

I enjoy discussing theology and religion in general, and in order to do that with a wider and more diverse audience (other than only with other angry atheists) it helps to be willing to try to see things from the eyes of the faithful. Genuine and curious vs. bitter and hateful. I'll take the former.

That some atheists are militant atheists and that is perfectly true. Obviously I'm not stating that all atheists are angry atheists otherwise I'd be denying my own existence.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Then it's a good thing I didn't do any such thing.

Would you care to clarify what you were implying by the follow statement?

I enjoy discussing theology and religion in general, and in order to do that with a wider and more diverse audience (other than only with other angry atheists) it helps to be willing to try to see things from the eyes of the faithful. Genuine and curious vs. bitter and hateful. I'll take the former.

That some atheists are militant atheists and that is perfectly true. Obviously I'm not stating that all atheists are angry atheists otherwise I'd be denying my own existence.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Corvette]

No worries!!!! Those that reject god and god's love will understand hell all to well for all eternity the split second after they die and open their eyes and see and feel the flames!!! Far too late then.

Doesnt sound like a very good deal nor does it give free will without punishment. Eat your beans or else...........

It all sounds like threats to submit. Have had quite enough of that already in this existence. I choose neither.

 

[hjmick]

No worries!!!! Those that reject god and god's love will understand hell all to well for all eternity the split second after they die and open their eyes and see and feel the flames!!! Far too late then.

So what you're telling me is, though I may lead a life that is honest and righteous and selfless and loving, and I remain an Atheist, I will go to Hell? I mean, should a Hell truly exist this is where I will find myself, is this correct?


And you are also telling me that, were, say... Charles Manson to repent, receive GOD and accept Jesus Christ as his savior, he would find himself a place in Heaven. Is this what you're saying?


If this is the case, you can keep it. I continue to want nothing to do with it...

 

[numan]

No worries!!!! Those that reject god and god's love will understand hell all to well for all eternity the split second after they die and open their eyes and see and feel the flames!!! Far too late then.

It always amuses me the obvious joy so-called Christians like you get out of imagining other people in hell.

I expect that when we die we all go wherever a dead dog goes when it is stark and stiff and cold.

Next question!! · ·

.

 

[Moonglow]

If God is the most powerful entity in the entire universe, why does he let the Devil run about loose causing mayhem, destruction and death?

 

[Derideo_Te]

If God is the most powerful entity in the entire universe, why does he let the Devil run about loose causing mayhem, destruction and death?

The devil is just a convenient excuse for not accepting responsibility for whatever crimes/misdemeanors/sins you might have committed. "The devil made me" cheat on my spouse, rob a bank, become an alcoholic, stalk children, cut down my neighbor's tree, beat up my girlfriend, etc, etc. This is the origin of the saying "religion is the last refuge of the scoundrel". As long as they are willing to blame their crimes on "the devil" there are people who are willing to accept these professional liars at their word and claim that a "miracle" has occurred and the "devil has been vanquished in one more soul".

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I believe everyone is going to be "speechless" as to who is in heaven and who is not. Jesus said the tax collector and the prostitute would enter heaven before the religous folks. God isn't into religion - he is into "relationship".. it's a come as you are invitation. What the world needs to see is Gods Love and that is all they need to see. It is Gods kindness that leads people to him. Mercy triumphs over judgment folks.

Speaking of invitations? If you read Matthew 22 you'll see that the King changed his mind about those he had invited to the wedding banquet ( the church ) because they refused to come so he told His servants to forget about those folks and go out to the highways and byways to invite "the good" and "the bad" people to come in so that his wedding banquet hall would be filled. Guess what? Those were the people who said YES! Oh yeah!!

If you read the first part of Matthew 22 you notice that the church that was invited didn't make it because they were too busy.. with other things. My own husband asked me one day - if none of the church made it then weren't there ANY christians that made it to heaven? I told him yes. Those are the servants the King sent out! Those ARE the christians. The rest were just playing church while a dying world perished around them.

So when you say "the good" didn't make it and went to hell? Ummm.... my bible says differently. You might want to double check that one... thanks. - Jeri

p.s. do you know what time it is right now? It is John 15 time! Those branches are getting cut off and cast into the fire... so make sure you are obeying the Master and going where he sends you! It is no time to be looking back now!!!