On the GOP

[Toro]

Also, the $110.9 million payment to Ed Hanway at Cigna is a little deceptive. You can see the breakdown of his compensation here.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...def14a.htm#dy41601_summary_compensation_table

Of that, $28 million was in a pension plan which he built up and will be paid out over time, and deferred compensation of $49 million, which he built up over time. $15 million was in the exercise of stock options that he also built up over time. $14 million is also the exercise of what Cigna calls "SPUs," or Strategic Participating Units, which is also deferred incentive compensation built up over time.

Now, I do think this is excessive, and I do think CEOs are over-paid. However, this is $110.9 million figure is not the firm arbitrarily writing a check to the CEO to go away those enveloped in envy like JoseifB131 would like you to believe.

 

[Seawytch]

uh huh, so what profit margin ( net profit) would you allow them if you could make that call?

Don't know. Less than it is now. It's simply not okay that insurance companies increase their profit margins by denying you the care you've paid for. It's not okay that we can't negotiate drug prices. It's simply not okay that, as a country, we pay the most, but do not have the best outcomes.

What profit margin would you "allow" in education? What profit margin would you "allow" in the Defense of our nation? Not having equal access to our healthcare system kills more Americans every year than terrorists. How much profit should be in saving lives?

you didn't answer my question and asking me questions on other issues ( I don't recognize any analogy here that works either) is a side issue, I didn't bring it up, 1 thing at a time please.

you said-

too much profit built in at every level,

if you cannot or will not quantify that beyond an emotional basis, we cannot have an intelligent conversation.

And I said I didn't know, just not as much as it is now. The health of a nation shouldn't be profit driven in my opinion.

Why isn't health analogous with defense? Aren't you defending against death and disease?

Our healthcare system simply doesn't work. We pay the most so you'd think we have the best outcomes, but we don't. We're talking about something that is a HUGE chunk of our GDP and it isn't working for the consumers or the taxpayers.

Know what would be great for the consumer? A public option available in every state's Exchange...something like...oh...Medicare...with it's super low overhead and no need to advertise every 30 seconds on television. Toss that up there next to some of the other plans and watch prices come down. Mix in the ability for Medicare to negotiate drug prices like the VA does (and the whole frickin' country of Canada) and you have a happier consumer.

 

[Dot Com]

Also, the $110.9 million payment to Ed Hanway at Cigna is a little deceptive. You can see the breakdown of his compensation here.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...def14a.htm#dy41601_summary_compensation_table

Of that, $28 million was in a pension plan which he built up and will be paid out over time, and deferred compensation of $49 million, which he built up over time. $15 million was in the exercise of stock options that he also built up over time. $14 million is also the exercise of what Cigna calls "SPUs," or Strategic Participating Units, which is also deferred incentive compensation built up over time.

Now, I do think this is excessive, and I do think CEOs are over-paid. However, this is $110.9 million figure is not the firm arbitrarily writing a check to the CEO to go away those enveloped in envy like JoseifB131 would like you to believe.

its STILL gag worthy no matter how you paint it. 21st century gilded age

 

[Trajan]

Don't know. Less than it is now. It's simply not okay that insurance companies increase their profit margins by denying you the care you've paid for. It's not okay that we can't negotiate drug prices. It's simply not okay that, as a country, we pay the most, but do not have the best outcomes.

What profit margin would you "allow" in education? What profit margin would you "allow" in the Defense of our nation? Not having equal access to our healthcare system kills more Americans every year than terrorists. How much profit should be in saving lives?

you didn't answer my question and asking me questions on other issues ( I don't recognize any analogy here that works either) is a side issue, I didn't bring it up, 1 thing at a time please.

you said-

too much profit built in at every level,

if you cannot or will not quantify that beyond an emotional basis, we cannot have an intelligent conversation.

And I said I didn't know, just not as much as it is now. The health of a nation shouldn't be profit driven in my opinion.

Why isn't health analogous with defense? Aren't you defending against death and disease?

Our healthcare system simply doesn't work. We pay the most so you'd think we have the best outcomes, but we don't. We're talking about something that is a HUGE chunk of our GDP and it isn't working for the consumers or the taxpayers.

Know what would be great for the consumer? A public option available in every state's Exchange...something like...oh...Medicare...with it's super low overhead and no need to advertise every 30 seconds on television. Toss that up there next to some of the other plans and watch prices come down. Mix in the ability for Medicare to negotiate drug prices like the VA does (and the whole frickin' country of Canada) and you have a happier consumer.

you said there was "too much profit built in at every level" , now, its there should be no profit.....you could have just said so 3 posts ago, or maybe its becasue you've been given proof the mantra of 'insane profits' or "doctors would rather cut off legs for $50,000 than take care of a diabetic" ( thank you Mr. President) is inarguably false.....

I don't need you to tell me what the health care costs are here, or prosing silly emotionally charged questions, your posts are all over the place, I asked you a question, thx for the answer after multiple attempts, even if its a contradiction to your original remark.

 

[Seawytch]

you didn't answer my question and asking me questions on other issues ( I don't recognize any analogy here that works either) is a side issue, I didn't bring it up, 1 thing at a time please.

you said-


if you cannot or will not quantify that beyond an emotional basis, we cannot have an intelligent conversation.

And I said I didn't know, just not as much as it is now. The health of a nation shouldn't be profit driven in my opinion.

Why isn't health analogous with defense? Aren't you defending against death and disease?

Our healthcare system simply doesn't work. We pay the most so you'd think we have the best outcomes, but we don't. We're talking about something that is a HUGE chunk of our GDP and it isn't working for the consumers or the taxpayers.

Know what would be great for the consumer? A public option available in every state's Exchange...something like...oh...Medicare...with it's super low overhead and no need to advertise every 30 seconds on television. Toss that up there next to some of the other plans and watch prices come down. Mix in the ability for Medicare to negotiate drug prices like the VA does (and the whole frickin' country of Canada) and you have a happier consumer.

you said there was "too much profit built in at every level" , now, its there should be no profit.....you could have just said so 3 posts ago, or maybe its becasue you've been given proof the mantra of 'insane profits' or "doctors would rather cut off legs for $50,000 than take care of a diabetic" ( thank you Mr. President) is inarguably false.....

I don't need you to tell me what the health care costs are here, or prosing silly emotionally charged questions, your posts are all over the place, I asked you a question, thx for the answer after multiple attempts, even if its a contradiction to your original remark.

Health Care

Why Our Health Care Lets Prices Run Wild

 

[Trajan]

 

[Derideo_Te]

[

Uhm Joe you do remeber the crap cars of the late 70's and early 80's that were being assembled. Joe your an office guy not a industrial guy like me. I know how the Unions worked in the 80's.biggest lazy ass fucks I have ever seen.

I work in an office, but most of my jobs have been in manufacturing Purchasing, which means I spend about half my day on the line checking quality on incoming parts and talking with assembly line workers about how well the products I bring in work.

And, yes, I do recall those shitty cars. My first car was a Chevy Chevette. Pretty much had a sewing machine for an engine. But the problem wasn't the way it was put together, it was the way it was designed.

as usual you're stuck on 'Marxist' so, I am not sure if even saying tis will matter, but, the decline of OUR auto industry is equally shared amongst management and labor.....

Agreed that BOTH management and labor share the blame but to give both their due they are working together to turn it around these days.

 

[Trajan]

I work in an office, but most of my jobs have been in manufacturing Purchasing, which means I spend about half my day on the line checking quality on incoming parts and talking with assembly line workers about how well the products I bring in work.

And, yes, I do recall those shitty cars. My first car was a Chevy Chevette. Pretty much had a sewing machine for an engine. But the problem wasn't the way it was put together, it was the way it was designed.

as usual you're stuck on 'Marxist' so, I am not sure if even saying tis will matter, but, the decline of OUR auto industry is equally shared amongst management and labor.....

Agreed that BOTH management and labor share the blame but to give both their due they are working together to turn it around these days.

they have little choice and we'll see just how well they work together when they hit the skids again, which, they will.

the labor unions are working to keep a job and were given a cut OF the company......Obama offered a dieing man a lifeline and took care of his constituents that funded him, please huh.

so what if obama abrogated binding contracts and they still owe the gov. over $10Bn ? ( I have seen figures as high as 18, depending no how you count it).



And hey whats up with bailing out a Private Equity Fund along the way ( Cerberus/Chrysler?) I thought they were evil?

 

[Harry Dresden]

In this case, it was Cigna, and I had to fight with them for about a year because they considered the surgeries "elective" even though they had half a dozen doctors telling them otherwise.

This would be the same Cigna that denied Nataline Sarkisyan a liver transplant, but paid Ed Hanaway 82 million to retire.

i have heard how fucked Cigna is....i know a few who had problems with them.....if they are given as a choice with other companies i cant see how anyone would pick them....their rep aint that good....

Cigna had revenues of $29.1 billion 2012 and profits of $1.6 billion, a profit margin of 5.4%.

CI Income Statement | Cigna Corporation Common Stock Stock - Yahoo! Finance

doesn't mean they are any good....if their customer service sucks they suck....

 

[Harry Dresden]

Don't know. Less than it is now. It's simply not okay that insurance companies increase their profit margins by denying you the care you've paid for. It's not okay that we can't negotiate drug prices. It's simply not okay that, as a country, we pay the most, but do not have the best outcomes.

What profit margin would you "allow" in education? What profit margin would you "allow" in the Defense of our nation? Not having equal access to our healthcare system kills more Americans every year than terrorists. How much profit should be in saving lives?

you didn't answer my question and asking me questions on other issues ( I don't recognize any analogy here that works either) is a side issue, I didn't bring it up, 1 thing at a time please.

you said-

too much profit built in at every level,

if you cannot or will not quantify that beyond an emotional basis, we cannot have an intelligent conversation.

And I said I didn't know, just not as much as it is now. The health of a nation shouldn't be profit driven in my opinion.

Why isn't health analogous with defense? Aren't you defending against death and disease?

Our healthcare system simply doesn't work. We pay the most so you'd think we have the best outcomes, but we don't. We're talking about something that is a HUGE chunk of our GDP and it isn't working for the consumers or the taxpayers.

Know what would be great for the consumer? A public option available in every state's Exchange...something like...oh...Medicare...with it's super low overhead and no need to advertise every 30 seconds on television. Toss that up there next to some of the other plans and watch prices come down. Mix in the ability for Medicare to negotiate drug prices like the VA does (and the whole frickin' country of Canada) and you have a happier consumer.

we dont have the best outcomes?......every person i have known that had something wrong and went to the Doctor and had it treated had a good outcome unless the condition was to far gone BECAUSE that person let it go to far or did not know something was wrong.......

 

[Harry Dresden]

And I said I didn't know, just not as much as it is now. The health of a nation shouldn't be profit driven in my opinion.

Why isn't health analogous with defense? Aren't you defending against death and disease?

Our healthcare system simply doesn't work. We pay the most so you'd think we have the best outcomes, but we don't. We're talking about something that is a HUGE chunk of our GDP and it isn't working for the consumers or the taxpayers.

Know what would be great for the consumer? A public option available in every state's Exchange...something like...oh...Medicare...with it's super low overhead and no need to advertise every 30 seconds on television. Toss that up there next to some of the other plans and watch prices come down. Mix in the ability for Medicare to negotiate drug prices like the VA does (and the whole frickin' country of Canada) and you have a happier consumer.

you said there was "too much profit built in at every level" , now, its there should be no profit.....you could have just said so 3 posts ago, or maybe its becasue you've been given proof the mantra of 'insane profits' or "doctors would rather cut off legs for $50,000 than take care of a diabetic" ( thank you Mr. President) is inarguably false.....

I don't need you to tell me what the health care costs are here, or prosing silly emotionally charged questions, your posts are all over the place, I asked you a question, thx for the answer after multiple attempts, even if its a contradiction to your original remark.

Health Care

Why Our Health Care Lets Prices Run Wild

from your first link.......

Doctors and hospitals practice “defensive medicine,” critics charge, ordering extraneous tests and procedures to protect themselves in the event of malpractice claims. This leads to overuse of the health care system.

whose fault is that?.....

 

[Derideo_Te]

as usual you're stuck on 'Marxist' so, I am not sure if even saying tis will matter, but, the decline of OUR auto industry is equally shared amongst management and labor.....

Agreed that BOTH management and labor share the blame but to give both their due they are working together to turn it around these days.

they have little choice and we'll see just how well they work together when they hit the skids again, which, they will.

the labor unions are working to keep a job and were given a cut OF the company......Obama offered a dieing man a lifeline and took care of his constituents that funded him, please huh.

so what if obama abrogated binding contracts and they still owe the gov. over $10Bn ? ( I have seen figures as high as 18, depending no how you count it).



And hey whats up with bailing out a Private Equity Fund along the way ( Cerberus/Chrysler?) I thought they were evil?

Not all unions are bad.

Why Unions Are Going Into the Co-op Business | Alternet

 

[Trajan]

Agreed that BOTH management and labor share the blame but to give both their due they are working together to turn it around these days.

they have little choice and we'll see just how well they work together when they hit the skids again, which, they will.

the labor unions are working to keep a job and were given a cut OF the company......Obama offered a dieing man a lifeline and took care of his constituents that funded him, please huh.

so what if obama abrogated binding contracts and they still owe the gov. over $10Bn ? ( I have seen figures as high as 18, depending no how you count it).



And hey whats up with bailing out a Private Equity Fund along the way ( Cerberus/Chrysler?) I thought they were evil?

Not all unions are bad.

Why Unions Are Going Into the Co-op Business | Alternet

I never said they were.......


anyway, that sounds like organized chaos....*shrugs* if they can make a go of it, and on par with what unions expect here, good for them...

 

[Immanuel]

Agreed that BOTH management and labor share the blame but to give both their due they are working together to turn it around these days.

they have little choice and we'll see just how well they work together when they hit the skids again, which, they will.

the labor unions are working to keep a job and were given a cut OF the company......Obama offered a dieing man a lifeline and took care of his constituents that funded him, please huh.

so what if obama abrogated binding contracts and they still owe the gov. over $10Bn ? ( I have seen figures as high as 18, depending no how you count it).



And hey whats up with bailing out a Private Equity Fund along the way ( Cerberus/Chrysler?) I thought they were evil?

Not all unions are bad.

Why Unions Are Going Into the Co-op Business | Alternet

No, not all unions are bad, but all union bosses are corrupt. Well maybe I should say almost all since I don't know them all.

Immie

 

[JoeB131]

[

Uhm Joe you do remeber the crap cars of the late 70's and early 80's that were being assembled. Joe your an office guy not a industrial guy like me. I know how the Unions worked in the 80's.biggest lazy ass fucks I have ever seen.

I work in an office, but most of my jobs have been in manufacturing Purchasing, which means I spend about half my day on the line checking quality on incoming parts and talking with assembly line workers about how well the products I bring in work.

And, yes, I do recall those shitty cars. My first car was a Chevy Chevette. Pretty much had a sewing machine for an engine. But the problem wasn't the way it was put together, it was the way it was designed.

as usual you're stuck on 'Marxist' so, I am not sure if even saying tis will matter, but, the decline of OUR auto industry is equally shared amongst management and labor.....

NO, it's ENTIRELY on management. Frankly, the mistake labor gave was they kept making concessions, which is like hoping the cannibals eat you last.

 

[JoeB131]

Also, the $110.9 million payment to Ed Hanway at Cigna is a little deceptive. You can see the breakdown of his compensation here.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...def14a.htm#dy41601_summary_compensation_table

Of that, $28 million was in a pension plan which he built up and will be paid out over time, and deferred compensation of $49 million, which he built up over time. $15 million was in the exercise of stock options that he also built up over time. $14 million is also the exercise of what Cigna calls "SPUs," or Strategic Participating Units, which is also deferred incentive compensation built up over time.

Now, I do think this is excessive, and I do think CEOs are over-paid. However, this is $110.9 million figure is not the firm arbitrarily writing a check to the CEO to go away those enveloped in envy like JoseifB131 would like you to believe.

So, you admit that it's excessive, but gosh darn, if I criticize it without making a bunch of moronic qualifications, I must be a "Marxist". Yeah. That's it. Maybe I'm just a person who sees an immorale act and calls people on it.

Here's the thing, regardless of how he broke it down, here's why he got it.

Beause people like Natline Sarkisyan were denied life saving treatments AFTER they had paid good money for premiums. IN short, they paid into a system and were cheated.

Now, yeah, maybe you have to draw lines, but frankly, the line should not be drawn at, "I might not get my Dressage Horsie if she gets her liver transplant."

 

[JoeB131]

[

i have heard how fucked Cigna is....i know a few who had problems with them.....if they are given as a choice with other companies i cant see how anyone would pick them....their rep aint that good....

I agree. Except For Toro, who seems to think they are wonderful people, they are pretty fucked up.

The things is, most of us aren't given a choice. Heck, my company (the one that cured me of Corporatist Bullshit) didn't even offer Cigna when I first joined. They had someone else. And every two years or so, they changed providers and got something just a little worse.

This is why a Public Option would have been wonderful. It would force Cigna and the others to compete against an entity that is just there to provide the service.

 

[Dot Com]

Also, the $110.9 million payment to Ed Hanway at Cigna is a little deceptive. You can see the breakdown of his compensation here.

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/d...def14a.htm#dy41601_summary_compensation_table

Of that, $28 million was in a pension plan which he built up and will be paid out over time, and deferred compensation of $49 million, which he built up over time. $15 million was in the exercise of stock options that he also built up over time. $14 million is also the exercise of what Cigna calls "SPUs," or Strategic Participating Units, which is also deferred incentive compensation built up over time.

Now, I do think this is excessive, and I do think CEOs are over-paid. However, this is $110.9 million figure is not the firm arbitrarily writing a check to the CEO to go away those enveloped in envy like JoseifB131 would like you to believe.

So, you admit that it's excessive, but gosh darn, if I criticize it without making a bunch of moronic qualifications, I must be a "Marxist". Yeah. That's it. Maybe I'm just a person who sees an immorale act and calls people on it.

Here's the thing, regardless of how he broke it down, here's why he got it.

Beause people like Natline Sarkisyan were denied life saving treatments AFTER they had paid good money for premiums. IN short, they paid into a system and were cheated.

Now, yeah, maybe you have to draw lines, but frankly, the line should not be drawn at, "I might not get my Dressage Horsie if she gets her liver transplant."

pos-repped & friend's request sent

 

[The T]

they have little choice and we'll see just how well they work together when they hit the skids again, which, they will.

the labor unions are working to keep a job and were given a cut OF the company......Obama offered a dieing man a lifeline and took care of his constituents that funded him, please huh.

so what if obama abrogated binding contracts and they still owe the gov. over $10Bn ? ( I have seen figures as high as 18, depending no how you count it).



And hey whats up with bailing out a Private Equity Fund along the way ( Cerberus/Chrysler?) I thought they were evil?

Not all unions are bad.

Why Unions Are Going Into the Co-op Business | Alternet

No, not all unions are bad, but all union bosses are corrupt. Well maybe I should say almost all since I don't know them all.

Immie

UNIONS are vehicles for extortion...and have long outlived their usefulness...

 

[Harry Dresden]

Not all unions are bad.

Why Unions Are Going Into the Co-op Business | Alternet

No, not all unions are bad, but all union bosses are corrupt. Well maybe I should say almost all since I don't know them all.

Immie

UNIONS are vehicles for extortion...and have long outlived their usefulness...

depends on where you work.....some places still need it.....the PO for one....