Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

[Grumblenuts]

zaangalewa has posted more than 27 times.
My pet is a dog.
Therefore, zaangalewa has fleas.

 

[sealybobo]

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I do not have any such memory, However, my grandmother who lived a hundred years ago told us a very different story. She was a strong Catholic who did live both in fairly large cities and then in a very small town. In other words, she experienced Catholic teachings in both environments. Guess what, kids weren't thrown out of the home for being gay. Many became known as bachelors or maiden aunts. (Same grandmother who taught us evolution began with us being something like a fish.) Neither evolution nor homosexuality was regarded as that big of a deal, perhaps because no one made it a big deal. It was what it was. Even so, probably because of my grandmother, I was a big believer in government giving ALL couples the same rights while at the same time being vehemently against government involving itself in marriage.

Where Grandma and society seemed to disagree at that time, is that Grandma was not in favor of a couple having to get married because they had created a baby.

Was she allowed to get a divorce?

 

[sealybobo]

Isn't that odd that most of the people you know don't hold the same religious beliefs that you do?

For the record, when I was a theist, I was very much like you. A very liberal theist.

A liberal is someone in favor of reform, not someone who encourages a traditional way. The way I follow goes back over two thousand years.

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I know that this post was to Meriweather, but I just wanted to say.... true Christianity has not changed. It has never changed.

Just in case this needs to be stated....as politically incorrect as this may be, homosexuality is just as much a sin today as it was 3000 years ago. That has not and will never change.

But since the time of Jesus, we are under the covenant of Grace, which means there is forgiveness for ANY sins, but that forgiveness isn't automatic. What I mean by that is that one must receive it and choose to follow Jesus and live life in a different way...God's way, not the ways of this corrupt, fallen world.

As for how one should take the bible, it's not a one size fits all. The bible is a collection of 66 books, and there are many different types (or genres) of writing. Meriweather and I might part ways on this, but some of it is to be taken literally, and other parts are poetry or parables or figures of speech, etc.

As for evolution, I used to agree with it but I've since realized that evolution is one of the biggest lies ever perpetuated on mankind. So I strongly disagree with Meriweather on that. But I don't want to get sidetracked here, plus I am just popping in from time to time when I have a bit of time.

Well the bible may say homosexual acts are a sin but you are correct, since all humans sin why should that sin send them to hell but straight people sin all the time and they go to heaven?

I don't think gay sex is a sin but I do like it that you guys don't tell gays they are going to hell.

 

[sealybobo]

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I do not have any such memory, However, my grandmother who lived a hundred years ago told us a very different story. She was a strong Catholic who did live both in fairly large cities and then in a very small town. In other words, she experienced Catholic teachings in both environments. Guess what, kids weren't thrown out of the home for being gay. Many became known as bachelors or maiden aunts. (Same grandmother who taught us evolution began with us being something like a fish.) Neither evolution nor homosexuality was regarded as that big of a deal, perhaps because no one made it a big deal. It was what it was. Even so, probably because of my grandmother, I was a big believer in government giving ALL couples the same rights while at the same time being vehemently against government involving itself in marriage.

Where Grandma and society seemed to disagree at that time, is that Grandma was not in favor of a couple having to get married because they had created a baby.

My neighbor across the hall struggled with homosexuality. His catholic parents guilted him with the bible. So he tried to find a woman and he had this great girlfriend and one night he just blew his brains out.

This I'm sure is because he was guilty and who made him feel guilty? His catholic parents and his catholic church.

Maybe if those catholics were more like you he wouldn't have killed himself.

BTW I was the one to go in and find the body because his best friends parents who had the key couldn't walk in. Neither could his girlfriend.

 

[sealybobo]

And i can say yes to most of those things you asked me. Did I ever go out of my way to make a jew, black or gay feel accepted? Yes I have. And I also support diversity programs where companies go out of their way to find gay black mexican women and jews to fill roles because right now 95% of those jobs are filled by us white straight christian men.

We do disagree here. I believe each job should be filled by the most qualified. For example, each applicant would be an initial followed by a last name; interviewed behind screens with voices also masked so that no one could determine race or gender.

Diversity "programs" have been tried...and they have failed. My thought is that we stop treating each other as victims, but as worthwhile human beings who can be hired on their own merits rather than become a pity hireling. There is always another "victim" to take the place of the current one. No wonder we all want to start slapping each other--and the first person we want to slap is someone who sees us as a victim unable to support and stand up for ourselves. Do you seriously want someone to hire you, not on your merits, but because you fit into the class of victim?

Diversity programs have not failed. Blacks and women wouldn't be where they are today without them.

And diversity programs are still happening as we speak so how have you determined they have failed?

Aren't you a woman? My brother's company wanted a new VP of HR. They kept finding these white guys. Finally my brothers said, "do you want a woman or minority or not?" And the big boss said yes so my brother chose Maria to be VP. In 1 year another company who was looking for a diversity candidate paid her twice as much. Sounds successful to me.

 

[Blues Man]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

The impulse to destroy is your interpretation.

I have no impulse to destroy anything. I do not condemn existence I just know that it the cosmic scope of things our lives are meaningless.

And yes I am an extreme cynic and pessimist. I would rather expect something bad to happen and be ready for it ( realist) than expect only good things to happen and then be sucker punched by the bad shit.

Good fortune is nothing but random luck just like tragedy is nothing but random bad luck.

There is no meaning in the good or bad that happens to anyone.

Not my interpretation, bro. Straight out of the link I provided.

FYI, a cynic and pessimist is not a realist.

Of course they can be realists.

Expecting the worst as a pessimist does fits right in with realism.

Cynicism is a school of thought that one should live in virtue and reject desires for wealth power and fame.

Now being cynical is not in any way opposed to being realistic either as there has never been a being as deceitful and treacherous as the humans that we no of so nothing humans do can be accepted at face value. That is the epitome of realism

If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst. ATTITUDE is one of the most important things in life, that is why successful people are usually people who are positive and don't hold themselves back with negative thoughts and a limiting mindset.

As ding said, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

The reality is that there is good AND bad in life. There is BOTH. But it's possible to live life in a way that brings about more GOOD. So why go through life expecting the worst, when you can just accept the reality that there is both good and bad, but we can make things so much better if we simply do things the right way.

That said, I want to repeat something I said to LA RAM earlier on the thread. Well, I'll just link to the post, here it is: Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

I realize of course that you're not a believer, so you'll probably just dismiss that post I just linked to. But I wanted to bring up that point again because when you learn that there is more to life than just this current existence in this corrupted world, everything makes so much more sense, and you can live life with true HOPE and understanding that truth, meaning and a true GOOD exists. Those things have a source, the same source of the physical world and all of existence. The Creator, the living God, who is infinitely more than just an impersonal "force."

There are no words that adequately express how amazing it is to finally see and believe, and live your life in a way that has true meaning, purpose, faith, love and HOPE!

There's so much more to be said here, but I could go on and on, so I'll refrain, haha! I'll leave it at this. Coming to Christ was the best decision I ever made, by far. It doesn't just change your life, you literally become a new creation and you have a whole new life. One that is infinitely better than life apart from God. In just about every way.

That's new age bullshit.

And there is nothing to learn about some afterlife because there is no afterlife.

What is? I already acknowledged that you wouldn't believe the latter part of my post, so I never expected you to believe that. But point out anything I said in the first 3 paragraphs that is false. And back yourself up. Saying something is bs is not an argument.

The very first line is new age bull.

Just because a person always prepares for the worst in no way indicates a poor attitude. In fact I'll say it's the more rational and mature thing to do.

It's better to be prepared for the worst that way you can be surprised when things go perfectly. It doesn't work very well the other way around.

You're slightly changing what I said. I wasn't talking about "preparing" for the worst. Of course it's good to be prepared for anything. My exact words were, "If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst." - In other words, if you go through life with a negative attitude always expecting bad things to happen, then they are more likely to happen. That is not just a "New Age" thing, the bible clearly teaches that our thoughts are very important, because our actions start with what is inside our mind/heart.

But you can't just dismiss that as a spiritual thing, because it is simply true, it's the way life works. There are certain things people learn through experience, going through different experiences and trials in life. We learn what works and what doesn't work. I think it's safe to say that it's a universal truth that our actions are preceded by our thoughts.

So getting back to what I actually said, (as opposed to what you changed it to) I simply said that if we always expect the worse, we are more likely to end up getting what we expect. Again, this is not just a "spiritual" thing, there are logical common sense reasons why this is the case.

For example, if you have a skill or talent that you can make a career out of, but you have a negative attitude and you tell yourself, "I will never be able to get a job as a ______" (whatever the case may be) and always expect the worst to happen, then you're probably not going to put yourself out there confidently and go for it. That "expecting the worst" attitude prevents you from doing certain things that you otherwise would do, if you had a positive attitude.

I really don't see how that can be denied.

As I said earlier (which you did not address), there is good and bad in this life. There is BOTH. Of course we are supposed to be aware and awake in regard to the fact that there is bad in this world, and the bible clearly states that. But it also says to control our thoughts and think about GOOD things.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things.​

​

-Philippians 4:8​

Still don't buy it.

What I expect and what actually happens are in no way related. There is no cause and effect at work.

My mere thoughts cannot influence the happenings of the world.

That is only partially true. I agree that truth itself is not dependent on what we believe or disbelieve. It just is what it is. That is precisely why truth is so important.

But in my previous post I wasn't talking about our thoughts affecting things that are completely out of our control, like major things about the world.

I was talking about how our thoughts and beliefs affect our OWN experiences and our own life. There absolutely IS a cause and effect at work, when it comes to our thoughts and actions and how those things lead to certain outcomes.

That idea is summed up in: "you reap what you sow." That is a universal truth. I have seen it in my own life over and over and over, and I have seen that truth in the lives of countless others.

You reap what you sow. The sooner you accept that, the better.

The fact that I may expect the worst has no bearing on my personal experience of life. It has no bearing on what will or will not happen to me. and there is no evidence that says otherwise.

In fact I think I am stronger during adversity because I always expect that there will be some occurrence that will interfere with my plans.

The fact that I think that in no way makes anything happen that would not have happened anyway.

The farmer who only sows what he thinks will be just enough to feed himself inevitably ends up going hungry because nothing ever goes as planned and shit happens.

That is so wrong, and I think it's very sad that you have that mindset. You are not really refuting anything I'm saying, you're just replying with very general "I don't buy it" replies.

But I'm not going to press the point, because it appears that your mind is made up and closed very tightly.

Your moral judgements on the way I live my life are wrong according to your bible right?

The Stoic Art of Premeditated Pessimism | Modern Mojo

Learn about the Stoic practice of occasionally thinking negatively, and always living positively, so you can be prepared for the inevitable crises of life.

modern-mojo.com

“Begin each day by telling yourself : Today I will be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness–all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good and what is evil.” – Marcus Aurelius

 

[Blues Man]

It's not "valid" here in any case since the premises are always found to be flawed.

No, you have your terms confused. "Valid" logic (arguments) can have false or dubious premises. "Sound" arguments are valid arguments for which the premises are "always true".

Valid argument:

Dogs have 27 legs.
My pet is a dog.
Therefore, my pet has 27 legs.

can an argument be called true if the first premise is false?

 

[Grumblenuts]

The first premise is false
The second is true
I know I'm valid
How about you?

 

[Grumblenuts]

Dogs have 27 legs.

Never even thought about that.. Doh!
Fort Fun:

"Sound" arguments are valid arguments for which the premises are "always true".

27 legs doesn't sound too good.
From my link:

A sound argument is one that is not only valid, but begins with premises that are actually true.

Fort Fun just caught me saying "valid" instead of "sound" is all.

 

[Meriweather]

Was she allowed to get a divorce?

Who?

 

[buttercup]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

The impulse to destroy is your interpretation.

I have no impulse to destroy anything. I do not condemn existence I just know that it the cosmic scope of things our lives are meaningless.

And yes I am an extreme cynic and pessimist. I would rather expect something bad to happen and be ready for it ( realist) than expect only good things to happen and then be sucker punched by the bad shit.

Good fortune is nothing but random luck just like tragedy is nothing but random bad luck.

There is no meaning in the good or bad that happens to anyone.

Not my interpretation, bro. Straight out of the link I provided.

FYI, a cynic and pessimist is not a realist.

Of course they can be realists.

Expecting the worst as a pessimist does fits right in with realism.

Cynicism is a school of thought that one should live in virtue and reject desires for wealth power and fame.

Now being cynical is not in any way opposed to being realistic either as there has never been a being as deceitful and treacherous as the humans that we no of so nothing humans do can be accepted at face value. That is the epitome of realism

If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst. ATTITUDE is one of the most important things in life, that is why successful people are usually people who are positive and don't hold themselves back with negative thoughts and a limiting mindset.

As ding said, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

The reality is that there is good AND bad in life. There is BOTH. But it's possible to live life in a way that brings about more GOOD. So why go through life expecting the worst, when you can just accept the reality that there is both good and bad, but we can make things so much better if we simply do things the right way.

That said, I want to repeat something I said to LA RAM earlier on the thread. Well, I'll just link to the post, here it is: Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

I realize of course that you're not a believer, so you'll probably just dismiss that post I just linked to. But I wanted to bring up that point again because when you learn that there is more to life than just this current existence in this corrupted world, everything makes so much more sense, and you can live life with true HOPE and understanding that truth, meaning and a true GOOD exists. Those things have a source, the same source of the physical world and all of existence. The Creator, the living God, who is infinitely more than just an impersonal "force."

There are no words that adequately express how amazing it is to finally see and believe, and live your life in a way that has true meaning, purpose, faith, love and HOPE!

There's so much more to be said here, but I could go on and on, so I'll refrain, haha! I'll leave it at this. Coming to Christ was the best decision I ever made, by far. It doesn't just change your life, you literally become a new creation and you have a whole new life. One that is infinitely better than life apart from God. In just about every way.

That's new age bullshit.

And there is nothing to learn about some afterlife because there is no afterlife.

What is? I already acknowledged that you wouldn't believe the latter part of my post, so I never expected you to believe that. But point out anything I said in the first 3 paragraphs that is false. And back yourself up. Saying something is bs is not an argument.

The very first line is new age bull.

Just because a person always prepares for the worst in no way indicates a poor attitude. In fact I'll say it's the more rational and mature thing to do.

It's better to be prepared for the worst that way you can be surprised when things go perfectly. It doesn't work very well the other way around.

You're slightly changing what I said. I wasn't talking about "preparing" for the worst. Of course it's good to be prepared for anything. My exact words were, "If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst." - In other words, if you go through life with a negative attitude always expecting bad things to happen, then they are more likely to happen. That is not just a "New Age" thing, the bible clearly teaches that our thoughts are very important, because our actions start with what is inside our mind/heart.

But you can't just dismiss that as a spiritual thing, because it is simply true, it's the way life works. There are certain things people learn through experience, going through different experiences and trials in life. We learn what works and what doesn't work. I think it's safe to say that it's a universal truth that our actions are preceded by our thoughts.

So getting back to what I actually said, (as opposed to what you changed it to) I simply said that if we always expect the worse, we are more likely to end up getting what we expect. Again, this is not just a "spiritual" thing, there are logical common sense reasons why this is the case.

For example, if you have a skill or talent that you can make a career out of, but you have a negative attitude and you tell yourself, "I will never be able to get a job as a ______" (whatever the case may be) and always expect the worst to happen, then you're probably not going to put yourself out there confidently and go for it. That "expecting the worst" attitude prevents you from doing certain things that you otherwise would do, if you had a positive attitude.

I really don't see how that can be denied.

As I said earlier (which you did not address), there is good and bad in this life. There is BOTH. Of course we are supposed to be aware and awake in regard to the fact that there is bad in this world, and the bible clearly states that. But it also says to control our thoughts and think about GOOD things.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things.​

​

-Philippians 4:8​

Still don't buy it.

What I expect and what actually happens are in no way related. There is no cause and effect at work.

My mere thoughts cannot influence the happenings of the world.

That is only partially true. I agree that truth itself is not dependent on what we believe or disbelieve. It just is what it is. That is precisely why truth is so important.

But in my previous post I wasn't talking about our thoughts affecting things that are completely out of our control, like major things about the world.

I was talking about how our thoughts and beliefs affect our OWN experiences and our own life. There absolutely IS a cause and effect at work, when it comes to our thoughts and actions and how those things lead to certain outcomes.

That idea is summed up in: "you reap what you sow." That is a universal truth. I have seen it in my own life over and over and over, and I have seen that truth in the lives of countless others.

You reap what you sow. The sooner you accept that, the better.

The fact that I may expect the worst has no bearing on my personal experience of life. It has no bearing on what will or will not happen to me. and there is no evidence that says otherwise.

In fact I think I am stronger during adversity because I always expect that there will be some occurrence that will interfere with my plans.

The fact that I think that in no way makes anything happen that would not have happened anyway.

The farmer who only sows what he thinks will be just enough to feed himself inevitably ends up going hungry because nothing ever goes as planned and shit happens.

That is so wrong, and I think it's very sad that you have that mindset. You are not really refuting anything I'm saying, you're just replying with very general "I don't buy it" replies.

But I'm not going to press the point, because it appears that your mind is made up and closed very tightly.

Your moral judgements on the way I live my life are wrong according to your bible right?

The Stoic Art of Premeditated Pessimism | Modern Mojo

Learn about the Stoic practice of occasionally thinking negatively, and always living positively, so you can be prepared for the inevitable crises of life.

modern-mojo.com

“Begin each day by telling yourself : Today I will be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness–all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good and what is evil.” – Marcus Aurelius

What are you talking about? We were having a discussion on pessimism, and my disagreement with that was coming from a practical standpoint. It is nothing against you personally, I don’t even know you, I was simply talking about how our thoughts and attitude are important because they lead to certain actions or inactions.

So I don’t know why you’re being so defensive, it’s possible to disagree with a particular philosophy or outlook without being against the person. If I felt judged and personally offended every time someone disagrees with Christianity, I would be constantly feeling that way because it happens all the time on these threads. But that would be pointless and counterproductive.

 

[Grumblenuts]

can an argument be called true if the first premise is false?

I gather the answer is neither. An argument can be called sound or unsound, while premises can be true, valid, false, or invalid. Which makes arguments much likelier to be unsound since only one combination out of the four works for sound.

Sound = T + V
Unsound = T + I, F + V, F + I

Seems the unlikelihood then of an argument being sound increases exponentially by a power factor of 2 as the number of premises increases.

 

[Blues Man]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

The impulse to destroy is your interpretation.

I have no impulse to destroy anything. I do not condemn existence I just know that it the cosmic scope of things our lives are meaningless.

And yes I am an extreme cynic and pessimist. I would rather expect something bad to happen and be ready for it ( realist) than expect only good things to happen and then be sucker punched by the bad shit.

Good fortune is nothing but random luck just like tragedy is nothing but random bad luck.

There is no meaning in the good or bad that happens to anyone.

Not my interpretation, bro. Straight out of the link I provided.

FYI, a cynic and pessimist is not a realist.

Of course they can be realists.

Expecting the worst as a pessimist does fits right in with realism.

Cynicism is a school of thought that one should live in virtue and reject desires for wealth power and fame.

Now being cynical is not in any way opposed to being realistic either as there has never been a being as deceitful and treacherous as the humans that we no of so nothing humans do can be accepted at face value. That is the epitome of realism

If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst. ATTITUDE is one of the most important things in life, that is why successful people are usually people who are positive and don't hold themselves back with negative thoughts and a limiting mindset.

As ding said, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

The reality is that there is good AND bad in life. There is BOTH. But it's possible to live life in a way that brings about more GOOD. So why go through life expecting the worst, when you can just accept the reality that there is both good and bad, but we can make things so much better if we simply do things the right way.

That said, I want to repeat something I said to LA RAM earlier on the thread. Well, I'll just link to the post, here it is: Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

I realize of course that you're not a believer, so you'll probably just dismiss that post I just linked to. But I wanted to bring up that point again because when you learn that there is more to life than just this current existence in this corrupted world, everything makes so much more sense, and you can live life with true HOPE and understanding that truth, meaning and a true GOOD exists. Those things have a source, the same source of the physical world and all of existence. The Creator, the living God, who is infinitely more than just an impersonal "force."

There are no words that adequately express how amazing it is to finally see and believe, and live your life in a way that has true meaning, purpose, faith, love and HOPE!

There's so much more to be said here, but I could go on and on, so I'll refrain, haha! I'll leave it at this. Coming to Christ was the best decision I ever made, by far. It doesn't just change your life, you literally become a new creation and you have a whole new life. One that is infinitely better than life apart from God. In just about every way.

That's new age bullshit.

And there is nothing to learn about some afterlife because there is no afterlife.

What is? I already acknowledged that you wouldn't believe the latter part of my post, so I never expected you to believe that. But point out anything I said in the first 3 paragraphs that is false. And back yourself up. Saying something is bs is not an argument.

The very first line is new age bull.

Just because a person always prepares for the worst in no way indicates a poor attitude. In fact I'll say it's the more rational and mature thing to do.

It's better to be prepared for the worst that way you can be surprised when things go perfectly. It doesn't work very well the other way around.

You're slightly changing what I said. I wasn't talking about "preparing" for the worst. Of course it's good to be prepared for anything. My exact words were, "If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst." - In other words, if you go through life with a negative attitude always expecting bad things to happen, then they are more likely to happen. That is not just a "New Age" thing, the bible clearly teaches that our thoughts are very important, because our actions start with what is inside our mind/heart.

But you can't just dismiss that as a spiritual thing, because it is simply true, it's the way life works. There are certain things people learn through experience, going through different experiences and trials in life. We learn what works and what doesn't work. I think it's safe to say that it's a universal truth that our actions are preceded by our thoughts.

So getting back to what I actually said, (as opposed to what you changed it to) I simply said that if we always expect the worse, we are more likely to end up getting what we expect. Again, this is not just a "spiritual" thing, there are logical common sense reasons why this is the case.

For example, if you have a skill or talent that you can make a career out of, but you have a negative attitude and you tell yourself, "I will never be able to get a job as a ______" (whatever the case may be) and always expect the worst to happen, then you're probably not going to put yourself out there confidently and go for it. That "expecting the worst" attitude prevents you from doing certain things that you otherwise would do, if you had a positive attitude.

I really don't see how that can be denied.

As I said earlier (which you did not address), there is good and bad in this life. There is BOTH. Of course we are supposed to be aware and awake in regard to the fact that there is bad in this world, and the bible clearly states that. But it also says to control our thoughts and think about GOOD things.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things.​

​

-Philippians 4:8​

Still don't buy it.

What I expect and what actually happens are in no way related. There is no cause and effect at work.

My mere thoughts cannot influence the happenings of the world.

That is only partially true. I agree that truth itself is not dependent on what we believe or disbelieve. It just is what it is. That is precisely why truth is so important.

But in my previous post I wasn't talking about our thoughts affecting things that are completely out of our control, like major things about the world.

I was talking about how our thoughts and beliefs affect our OWN experiences and our own life. There absolutely IS a cause and effect at work, when it comes to our thoughts and actions and how those things lead to certain outcomes.

That idea is summed up in: "you reap what you sow." That is a universal truth. I have seen it in my own life over and over and over, and I have seen that truth in the lives of countless others.

You reap what you sow. The sooner you accept that, the better.

The fact that I may expect the worst has no bearing on my personal experience of life. It has no bearing on what will or will not happen to me. and there is no evidence that says otherwise.

In fact I think I am stronger during adversity because I always expect that there will be some occurrence that will interfere with my plans.

The fact that I think that in no way makes anything happen that would not have happened anyway.

The farmer who only sows what he thinks will be just enough to feed himself inevitably ends up going hungry because nothing ever goes as planned and shit happens.

That is so wrong, and I think it's very sad that you have that mindset. You are not really refuting anything I'm saying, you're just replying with very general "I don't buy it" replies.

But I'm not going to press the point, because it appears that your mind is made up and closed very tightly.

Your moral judgements on the way I live my life are wrong according to your bible right?

The Stoic Art of Premeditated Pessimism | Modern Mojo

Learn about the Stoic practice of occasionally thinking negatively, and always living positively, so you can be prepared for the inevitable crises of life.

modern-mojo.com

“Begin each day by telling yourself : Today I will be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness–all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good and what is evil.” – Marcus Aurelius

What are you talking about? We were having a discussion on pessimism, and my disagreement with that was coming from a practical standpoint. It is nothing against you personally, I don’t even know you, I was simply talking about how our thoughts and attitude are important because they lead to certain actions or inactions.

So I don’t know why you’re being so defensive, it’s possible to disagree with a particular philosophy or outlook without being against the person. If I felt judged and personally offended every time someone disagrees with Christianity, I would be constantly feeling that way because it happens all the time on these threads. But that would be pointless and counterproductive.

And i quote

"That is so wrong"

What were you referring to if not what we were talking about which was my choice to be pessimistic?

I don't throw moral judgements by telling other people what they believe is right or wrong.

That's what you religious people do even though the bible tells you not to judge.

I can give example after example where my brand of pessimism has actually strengthened my resolve. You assume pessimism works against resolve and results in poor outcomes.

I know it doesn't.

 

[Grumblenuts]

I now just say "Horrible." and leave it to the reader to figure out how serious I'm being
"Terrible." works too
(Full credit to David Feldman)

 

[buttercup]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

The impulse to destroy is your interpretation.

I have no impulse to destroy anything. I do not condemn existence I just know that it the cosmic scope of things our lives are meaningless.

And yes I am an extreme cynic and pessimist. I would rather expect something bad to happen and be ready for it ( realist) than expect only good things to happen and then be sucker punched by the bad shit.

Good fortune is nothing but random luck just like tragedy is nothing but random bad luck.

There is no meaning in the good or bad that happens to anyone.

Not my interpretation, bro. Straight out of the link I provided.

FYI, a cynic and pessimist is not a realist.

Of course they can be realists.

Expecting the worst as a pessimist does fits right in with realism.

Cynicism is a school of thought that one should live in virtue and reject desires for wealth power and fame.

Now being cynical is not in any way opposed to being realistic either as there has never been a being as deceitful and treacherous as the humans that we no of so nothing humans do can be accepted at face value. That is the epitome of realism

If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst. ATTITUDE is one of the most important things in life, that is why successful people are usually people who are positive and don't hold themselves back with negative thoughts and a limiting mindset.

As ding said, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

The reality is that there is good AND bad in life. There is BOTH. But it's possible to live life in a way that brings about more GOOD. So why go through life expecting the worst, when you can just accept the reality that there is both good and bad, but we can make things so much better if we simply do things the right way.

That said, I want to repeat something I said to LA RAM earlier on the thread. Well, I'll just link to the post, here it is: Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

I realize of course that you're not a believer, so you'll probably just dismiss that post I just linked to. But I wanted to bring up that point again because when you learn that there is more to life than just this current existence in this corrupted world, everything makes so much more sense, and you can live life with true HOPE and understanding that truth, meaning and a true GOOD exists. Those things have a source, the same source of the physical world and all of existence. The Creator, the living God, who is infinitely more than just an impersonal "force."

There are no words that adequately express how amazing it is to finally see and believe, and live your life in a way that has true meaning, purpose, faith, love and HOPE!

There's so much more to be said here, but I could go on and on, so I'll refrain, haha! I'll leave it at this. Coming to Christ was the best decision I ever made, by far. It doesn't just change your life, you literally become a new creation and you have a whole new life. One that is infinitely better than life apart from God. In just about every way.

That's new age bullshit.

And there is nothing to learn about some afterlife because there is no afterlife.

What is? I already acknowledged that you wouldn't believe the latter part of my post, so I never expected you to believe that. But point out anything I said in the first 3 paragraphs that is false. And back yourself up. Saying something is bs is not an argument.

The very first line is new age bull.

Just because a person always prepares for the worst in no way indicates a poor attitude. In fact I'll say it's the more rational and mature thing to do.

It's better to be prepared for the worst that way you can be surprised when things go perfectly. It doesn't work very well the other way around.

You're slightly changing what I said. I wasn't talking about "preparing" for the worst. Of course it's good to be prepared for anything. My exact words were, "If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst." - In other words, if you go through life with a negative attitude always expecting bad things to happen, then they are more likely to happen. That is not just a "New Age" thing, the bible clearly teaches that our thoughts are very important, because our actions start with what is inside our mind/heart.

But you can't just dismiss that as a spiritual thing, because it is simply true, it's the way life works. There are certain things people learn through experience, going through different experiences and trials in life. We learn what works and what doesn't work. I think it's safe to say that it's a universal truth that our actions are preceded by our thoughts.

So getting back to what I actually said, (as opposed to what you changed it to) I simply said that if we always expect the worse, we are more likely to end up getting what we expect. Again, this is not just a "spiritual" thing, there are logical common sense reasons why this is the case.

For example, if you have a skill or talent that you can make a career out of, but you have a negative attitude and you tell yourself, "I will never be able to get a job as a ______" (whatever the case may be) and always expect the worst to happen, then you're probably not going to put yourself out there confidently and go for it. That "expecting the worst" attitude prevents you from doing certain things that you otherwise would do, if you had a positive attitude.

I really don't see how that can be denied.

As I said earlier (which you did not address), there is good and bad in this life. There is BOTH. Of course we are supposed to be aware and awake in regard to the fact that there is bad in this world, and the bible clearly states that. But it also says to control our thoughts and think about GOOD things.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things.​

​

-Philippians 4:8​

Still don't buy it.

What I expect and what actually happens are in no way related. There is no cause and effect at work.

My mere thoughts cannot influence the happenings of the world.

That is only partially true. I agree that truth itself is not dependent on what we believe or disbelieve. It just is what it is. That is precisely why truth is so important.

But in my previous post I wasn't talking about our thoughts affecting things that are completely out of our control, like major things about the world.

I was talking about how our thoughts and beliefs affect our OWN experiences and our own life. There absolutely IS a cause and effect at work, when it comes to our thoughts and actions and how those things lead to certain outcomes.

That idea is summed up in: "you reap what you sow." That is a universal truth. I have seen it in my own life over and over and over, and I have seen that truth in the lives of countless others.

You reap what you sow. The sooner you accept that, the better.

The fact that I may expect the worst has no bearing on my personal experience of life. It has no bearing on what will or will not happen to me. and there is no evidence that says otherwise.

In fact I think I am stronger during adversity because I always expect that there will be some occurrence that will interfere with my plans.

The fact that I think that in no way makes anything happen that would not have happened anyway.

The farmer who only sows what he thinks will be just enough to feed himself inevitably ends up going hungry because nothing ever goes as planned and shit happens.

That is so wrong, and I think it's very sad that you have that mindset. You are not really refuting anything I'm saying, you're just replying with very general "I don't buy it" replies.

But I'm not going to press the point, because it appears that your mind is made up and closed very tightly.

Your moral judgements on the way I live my life are wrong according to your bible right?

The Stoic Art of Premeditated Pessimism | Modern Mojo

Learn about the Stoic practice of occasionally thinking negatively, and always living positively, so you can be prepared for the inevitable crises of life.

modern-mojo.com

“Begin each day by telling yourself : Today I will be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness–all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good and what is evil.” – Marcus Aurelius

What are you talking about? We were having a discussion on pessimism, and my disagreement with that was coming from a practical standpoint. It is nothing against you personally, I don’t even know you, I was simply talking about how our thoughts and attitude are important because they lead to certain actions or inactions.

So I don’t know why you’re being so defensive, it’s possible to disagree with a particular philosophy or outlook without being against the person. If I felt judged and personally offended every time someone disagrees with Christianity, I would be constantly feeling that way because it happens all the time on these threads. But that would be pointless and counterproductive.

And i quote

"That is so wrong"

What were you referring to if not what we were talking about which was my choice to be pessimistic?

I don't throw moral judgements by telling other people what they believe is right or wrong.

That's what you religious people do even though the bible tells you not to judge.

I can give example after example where my brand of pessimism has actually strengthened my resolve. You assume pessimism works against resolve and results in poor outcomes.

I know it doesn't.

I was talking about that viewpoint and your assertion that there is no cause and effect. Again, I was coming from a practical standpoint. It actually has nothing to do with morality, there’s a difference between wisdom and morality. The former has to do with what works best in life, and generally speaking people learn what works best in life through life experience, and also seeing what has worked for other people, over thousands of years.

Again, there’s no need to feel personally judged or offended, for my disagreement with Pessimism.

But I see that this conversation is kinda pointless, so we can agree to disagree. Don’t worry, I won’t post to you anymore.

 

[Grumblenuts]

Just happened upon this. Seemed fitting. Not directing at anyone in particular:

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”
― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

 

[Blues Man]

You can't be an agnostic atheist.

I would say you are an agnostic secularist

• Atheist - There is no god.
• Nihilistic - Life has no meaning.
• Secular - Lack of religion.
• Agnostic - There may or may not be a god, but open to know more.
• Gnostic - Belief that the God (or gods) we worship are in fact evil tricksters and that a secret knowledge is preventing us from the true God.
• Animistic - Belief that all things contain spirits.
• Deist - There is a God who created life, but just watches and does not intervene.
• Theist - Belief in a higher power and at least one god.
• Polytheist - Belief in more than one god.
• Monotheist -believing in a single God - ie. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
• Apostate - A person who leaves a religion.
• Misotheist - A person that hates God or the Gods.
• Dustheism - Belief that God or the Gods are not totally good.
• Macioism - Belief that God is a Demiurge and wrathful, malicious evil creator. Similar to Gnostic.
• Euthesim - Belief in a totally good God.

What do you mean life has meaning? What is the meaning? What is our purpose? I think we could master the universe if we weren’t so primitive. Still warring with each other rather than working as one planet to get to mars and mine the meteor belt. Then build a ship the size of a planet that can also survive interstellar travel. Then we might have a purpose.

If we stay on this Rock eventually we will die of some natural cause. The planet will still have other creatures who survive this mass global extinction but even they too will die when the water goes or the sun burns out. If we go with the planet, what was our purpose?

We are a way for the universe to know itself. Amazing.

There is no purpose to life.

And if the universe is trying to know itself through humans it could do better since we only have an understanding of about 5% of it.

Sure there is... to become the best version of yourself and to pass it on. There's your meaning.

Simply put, evolution is when anything moves from a less advanced state to a more advanced state; a less complex state to a more complex state. Since the beginning of time matter has evolved and will continue to do so. Your purpose, your meaning in life is to evolve in consciousness and pass it on to the next generation.

That's your meaning.

You have no business telling my what mine is.

According to you, you don’t have one, right?

But according to Darwin the meaning of life is to pass down functional advantage to the next generation.

No not really

I know that what I do here while I'm alive will have little effect in the grand scheme of things.

And again that's Darwin and he has no more right to tell me what my purpose is than you do.

The human race has been here for but a blink in cosmological time and less than a minute in the earth's geological time.

We will be gone in but another few blinks of time as far as the cosmos is concerned.

Nothing anyone has ever done or will ever do will matter.

Yep, you're a nihilist alright.

As i said.

You have a fatalistic attitude, my friend.

I know.

Better a realist than some naive idealistic Pollyanna

No. A realist isn't a fatalist. A realist does not believe that life is without meaning. A realists accepts situations as they are and deals with them. Whereas a fatalist believes nothing matters (i.e. life is without meaning).

realist: a person who accepts a situation as it is and is prepared to deal with it accordingly.

fatalist: a person who believes all events are predetermined and therefore inevitable.

nihilist: a person who believes that life is meaningless.

I'm not a fatalist I do not think anything is predetermined. In fact I am just the opposite as I think events are totally random and chaotic.

And I can be a realist and a nihilist as the 2 are not mutually exclusive.

A realist is not able to say "everything is an illusion". Something has to produce this illusion. Cogito ergo sum.

In fact I do accept things the way they and deal with the way things are on a daily basis but in the really big picture I can also accept that those same things are meaningless

It's meaningless to say things are meaningless. Nothing what's real is unimportant. A minimal cause is able to produce a maximal effect. Example: A mutation of a virus starts a pandemic.

Where did I ever use the word "illusion"?

You used the word "nihilist" and a nihilist thinks everything is an illusion - that's why it is meaningless what we think and do.

And all that man does, feels, thinks or believes in the cosmic scope is meaningless.

So you are a nihilist - but not a realist. To be a realist excludes it to be a nihilist.

No a nihilist thinks life is meaningless.

Definition of NIHILISM

a viewpoint that traditional values and beliefs are unfounded and that existence is senseless and useless; a doctrine that denies any objective ground of truth and especially of moral truths… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com

You'll notice in the definition there is nothing about nihilism thinking life is an illusion.

So yes I can think life is meaningless and therefore be a nihilist and I can also be a realist and accept things the way they are

Nihilism | Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy

www.iep.utm.edu

It is often associated with extreme pessimism and a radical skepticismthat condemns existence. A true nihilist would believe in nothing, have no loyalties, and no purpose other than, perhaps, an impulse to destroy.

The impulse to destroy is your interpretation.

I have no impulse to destroy anything. I do not condemn existence I just know that it the cosmic scope of things our lives are meaningless.

And yes I am an extreme cynic and pessimist. I would rather expect something bad to happen and be ready for it ( realist) than expect only good things to happen and then be sucker punched by the bad shit.

Good fortune is nothing but random luck just like tragedy is nothing but random bad luck.

There is no meaning in the good or bad that happens to anyone.

Not my interpretation, bro. Straight out of the link I provided.

FYI, a cynic and pessimist is not a realist.

Of course they can be realists.

Expecting the worst as a pessimist does fits right in with realism.

Cynicism is a school of thought that one should live in virtue and reject desires for wealth power and fame.

Now being cynical is not in any way opposed to being realistic either as there has never been a being as deceitful and treacherous as the humans that we no of so nothing humans do can be accepted at face value. That is the epitome of realism

If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst. ATTITUDE is one of the most important things in life, that is why successful people are usually people who are positive and don't hold themselves back with negative thoughts and a limiting mindset.

As ding said, it doesn't have to be one extreme or the other.

The reality is that there is good AND bad in life. There is BOTH. But it's possible to live life in a way that brings about more GOOD. So why go through life expecting the worst, when you can just accept the reality that there is both good and bad, but we can make things so much better if we simply do things the right way.

That said, I want to repeat something I said to LA RAM earlier on the thread. Well, I'll just link to the post, here it is: Open Minded Agnostic Atheist

I realize of course that you're not a believer, so you'll probably just dismiss that post I just linked to. But I wanted to bring up that point again because when you learn that there is more to life than just this current existence in this corrupted world, everything makes so much more sense, and you can live life with true HOPE and understanding that truth, meaning and a true GOOD exists. Those things have a source, the same source of the physical world and all of existence. The Creator, the living God, who is infinitely more than just an impersonal "force."

There are no words that adequately express how amazing it is to finally see and believe, and live your life in a way that has true meaning, purpose, faith, love and HOPE!

There's so much more to be said here, but I could go on and on, so I'll refrain, haha! I'll leave it at this. Coming to Christ was the best decision I ever made, by far. It doesn't just change your life, you literally become a new creation and you have a whole new life. One that is infinitely better than life apart from God. In just about every way.

That's new age bullshit.

And there is nothing to learn about some afterlife because there is no afterlife.

What is? I already acknowledged that you wouldn't believe the latter part of my post, so I never expected you to believe that. But point out anything I said in the first 3 paragraphs that is false. And back yourself up. Saying something is bs is not an argument.

The very first line is new age bull.

Just because a person always prepares for the worst in no way indicates a poor attitude. In fact I'll say it's the more rational and mature thing to do.

It's better to be prepared for the worst that way you can be surprised when things go perfectly. It doesn't work very well the other way around.

You're slightly changing what I said. I wasn't talking about "preparing" for the worst. Of course it's good to be prepared for anything. My exact words were, "If you expect the worst, you're far more likely to end up getting the worst." - In other words, if you go through life with a negative attitude always expecting bad things to happen, then they are more likely to happen. That is not just a "New Age" thing, the bible clearly teaches that our thoughts are very important, because our actions start with what is inside our mind/heart.

But you can't just dismiss that as a spiritual thing, because it is simply true, it's the way life works. There are certain things people learn through experience, going through different experiences and trials in life. We learn what works and what doesn't work. I think it's safe to say that it's a universal truth that our actions are preceded by our thoughts.

So getting back to what I actually said, (as opposed to what you changed it to) I simply said that if we always expect the worse, we are more likely to end up getting what we expect. Again, this is not just a "spiritual" thing, there are logical common sense reasons why this is the case.

For example, if you have a skill or talent that you can make a career out of, but you have a negative attitude and you tell yourself, "I will never be able to get a job as a ______" (whatever the case may be) and always expect the worst to happen, then you're probably not going to put yourself out there confidently and go for it. That "expecting the worst" attitude prevents you from doing certain things that you otherwise would do, if you had a positive attitude.

I really don't see how that can be denied.

As I said earlier (which you did not address), there is good and bad in this life. There is BOTH. Of course we are supposed to be aware and awake in regard to the fact that there is bad in this world, and the bible clearly states that. But it also says to control our thoughts and think about GOOD things.

Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things.​

​

-Philippians 4:8​

Still don't buy it.

What I expect and what actually happens are in no way related. There is no cause and effect at work.

My mere thoughts cannot influence the happenings of the world.

That is only partially true. I agree that truth itself is not dependent on what we believe or disbelieve. It just is what it is. That is precisely why truth is so important.

But in my previous post I wasn't talking about our thoughts affecting things that are completely out of our control, like major things about the world.

I was talking about how our thoughts and beliefs affect our OWN experiences and our own life. There absolutely IS a cause and effect at work, when it comes to our thoughts and actions and how those things lead to certain outcomes.

That idea is summed up in: "you reap what you sow." That is a universal truth. I have seen it in my own life over and over and over, and I have seen that truth in the lives of countless others.

You reap what you sow. The sooner you accept that, the better.

The fact that I may expect the worst has no bearing on my personal experience of life. It has no bearing on what will or will not happen to me. and there is no evidence that says otherwise.

In fact I think I am stronger during adversity because I always expect that there will be some occurrence that will interfere with my plans.

The fact that I think that in no way makes anything happen that would not have happened anyway.

The farmer who only sows what he thinks will be just enough to feed himself inevitably ends up going hungry because nothing ever goes as planned and shit happens.

That is so wrong, and I think it's very sad that you have that mindset. You are not really refuting anything I'm saying, you're just replying with very general "I don't buy it" replies.

But I'm not going to press the point, because it appears that your mind is made up and closed very tightly.

Your moral judgements on the way I live my life are wrong according to your bible right?

The Stoic Art of Premeditated Pessimism | Modern Mojo

Learn about the Stoic practice of occasionally thinking negatively, and always living positively, so you can be prepared for the inevitable crises of life.

modern-mojo.com

“Begin each day by telling yourself : Today I will be meeting with interference, ingratitude, insolence, disloyalty, ill-will, and selfishness–all of them due to the offenders’ ignorance of what is good and what is evil.” – Marcus Aurelius

What are you talking about? We were having a discussion on pessimism, and my disagreement with that was coming from a practical standpoint. It is nothing against you personally, I don’t even know you, I was simply talking about how our thoughts and attitude are important because they lead to certain actions or inactions.

So I don’t know why you’re being so defensive, it’s possible to disagree with a particular philosophy or outlook without being against the person. If I felt judged and personally offended every time someone disagrees with Christianity, I would be constantly feeling that way because it happens all the time on these threads. But that would be pointless and counterproductive.

And i quote

"That is so wrong"

What were you referring to if not what we were talking about which was my choice to be pessimistic?

I don't throw moral judgements by telling other people what they believe is right or wrong.

That's what you religious people do even though the bible tells you not to judge.

I can give example after example where my brand of pessimism has actually strengthened my resolve. You assume pessimism works against resolve and results in poor outcomes.

I know it doesn't.

I was talking about that viewpoint and your assertion that there is no cause and effect. Again, I was coming from a practical standpoint. It actually has nothing to do with morality, there’s a difference between wisdom and morality. The former has to do with what works best in life, and generally speaking people learn what works best in life through life experience, and also seeing what has worked for other people, over thousands of years.

Again, there’s no need to feel personally judged or offended, for my disagreement with Pessimism.

But I see that this conversation is kinda pointless, so we can agree to disagree. Don’t worry, I won’t post to you anymore.

There is no cause and effect because your thoughts do not control other people or the world around you.

The only thing we

Just happened upon this. Seemed fitting. Not directing at anyone in particular:

“To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.”
― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

I don't hold humanity in contempt. In fact I live and let live more than most people.

To quote Charles Bukowski

" I don't hate people, I just feel better when they are not around."

 

[Grumblenuts]

can an argument be called true if the first premise is false?

I gather the answer is neither. An argument can be called sound or unsound, while premises can be true, valid, false, or invalid. Which makes arguments much likelier to be unsound since only one combination out of the four works for sound.

Sound = T + V
Unsound = T + I, F + V, F + I

Seems the unlikelihood then of an argument being sound increases exponentially by a power factor of 2 as the number of premises increases.

Needs a little correcting after reading some more..

Seems no one says "unsound." They use "invalid" for both arguments and premises.
So corrected:

An argument can be called sound or unsound invalid, while premises can be true, valid, false, or invalid. Which makes arguments much likelier to be unsound invalid since only one combination out of the four works for sound.

Sound = T + V
Unsound Invalid = T + I, F + V, F + I

Seems the unlikelihood then of an argument being sound increases exponentially by a power factor of 2 as the number of premises increases.

Also, I see "true" being used interchangeably with "sound." So arguments are said to be true or sound, same thing. Therefore, the correct answer to your question is "No, an argument can't be true if a premise is false." Wait,.. can arguments be false now too?.. Ahem.. What - a - mess.. Well..

Thanks for your attention regarding this crucial matter. Now back to your regularly scheduled speechifying whilst gesticulating wildly

 

[sealybobo]

Was she allowed to get a divorce?

Who?

Any catholics back then. Catholics I thought it was very difficult to get a divorce 20 or 40 years ago. Is it still that way? And if you do are you kicked out of the church?

 

[sealybobo]

Isn't that odd that most of the people you know don't hold the same religious beliefs that you do?

For the record, when I was a theist, I was very much like you. A very liberal theist.

A liberal is someone in favor of reform, not someone who encourages a traditional way. The way I follow goes back over two thousand years.

Well the way we all remember Christianity 100 years ago is people took the bible literally and they would throw their kids out of the home for being gay. Or tell non christians they are going to hell.

Christians seem a lot more liberal today don't you think? Like gays getting married.

I know that this post was to Meriweather, but I just wanted to say.... true Christianity has not changed. It has never changed.

Just in case this needs to be stated....as politically incorrect as this may be, homosexuality is just as much a sin today as it was 3000 years ago. That has not and will never change.

But since the time of Jesus, we are under the covenant of Grace, which means there is forgiveness for ANY sins, but that forgiveness isn't automatic. What I mean by that is that one must receive it and choose to follow Jesus and live life in a different way...God's way, not the ways of this corrupt, fallen world.

As for how one should take the bible, it's not a one size fits all. The bible is a collection of 66 books, and there are many different types (or genres) of writing. Meriweather and I might part ways on this, but some of it is to be taken literally, and other parts are poetry or parables or figures of speech, etc.

As for evolution, I used to agree with it but I've since realized that evolution is one of the biggest lies ever perpetuated on mankind. So I strongly disagree with Meriweather on that. But I don't want to get sidetracked here, plus I am just popping in from time to time when I have a bit of time.

Sorry if this is too personal but have you ever given or received oral or anal sex? If you have, you probably committed a sin.

So I don't really care what the bible says about lust and adultary. It's probably so strict that today EVERYONE has sinned sexually according to the bible.

But today we all know that what two loving people do in privacy is not a sin especially if they are safe and love each other.

Is it a sin to have pre marital sex? I'm sure the bible says so but how many Christians have had pre marital sex and are not sorry about it? Don't you have to truly be sorry to be forgiven? I don't think most christians feel too guilty about this so how is that going to work when they meet god?

See? This proves my point that Christians think they get a free pass on sin just because they believe in Jesus. They can sin, not feel guilty about it one bit, and god will forgive them when they die.

And if you really believe that then I guess god will forgive two guys for having butt sex right?