Pro-choice at record low...41 percent.

[uscitizen]

From your link:

"Comprehensive sex education may help"


Do you know what may means? It means it isn't proven.

50 years, and it isn't proven.

Society keeps on changing. We had a female VP candidate flaunting her unwed pregnant daughter on stage. That would not have happend a decade or so ago now would it?
And the daughter was rewarded with 1/4 million $ for her unwed pregnancy by conservatives.
That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

Perhaps both sides are progressive?

 

[sealybobo]

The way righties word it, everyone is pro life. But ask the women questions about different scenerios they might find themselves in and most of them realize they are actually pro choice. Personally no one likes abortion. Liberals just understand it is a necessary evil. And really what is "evil"? Going to war for oil and killing millions of arabs in the process?

Notice Republicans care about private sin but not public sin. Getting an abortion which is no one elses business but your own? Having man on man sex in the privacy of your own bedroom? Republicans want to legislate morality.

But they don't mind public sins. Polluting our lakes and rivers, discriminating, wars, cutting off funding that helps the poor, stealing elections, letting the rich take over our democracy.

P.S. The worst thing the GOP privatized was our vote. We need to stop with these corporate owned/controlled, hackable electronic voting machines. Why do you think Canada rejected them? I don't even think Republicans care if the GOP rig our elections. They believe in letting the rich rule anyways. They don't want everyone to have a say. Especiallly poor stupid democratic voters.

 

[sealybobo]

From your link:

"Comprehensive sex education may help"


Do you know what may means? It means it isn't proven.

50 years, and it isn't proven.

Society keeps on changing. We had a female VP candidate flaunting her unwed pregnant daughter on stage. That would not have happend a decade or so ago now would it?
And the daughter was rewarded with 1/4 million $ for her unwed pregnancy by conservatives.
That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

Perhaps both sides are progressive?

Would Rush consider her a whore? I do. Her mom too. She fucked Glen Rice the black basketball player. That's hot.

 

[koshergrl]

From your link:

"Comprehensive sex education may help"


Do you know what may means? It means it isn't proven.

50 years, and it isn't proven.

Society keeps on changing. We had a female VP candidate flaunting her unwed pregnant daughter on stage. That would not have happend a decade or so ago now would it?
And the daughter was rewarded with 1/4 million $ for her unwed pregnancy by conservatives.
That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

Perhaps both sides are progressive?

Oh look, more irrelevant crap to divert away from the truth.

 

[koshergrl]

From your link:

"Comprehensive sex education may help"


Do you know what may means? It means it isn't proven.

50 years, and it isn't proven.

Society keeps on changing. We had a female VP candidate flaunting her unwed pregnant daughter on stage. That would not have happend a decade or so ago now would it?
And the daughter was rewarded with 1/4 million $ for her unwed pregnancy by conservatives.
That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

Perhaps both sides are progressive?

Would Rush consider her a whore? I do. Her mom too. She fucked Glen Rice the black basketball player. That's hot.

And more.

"Pro-life sucks because the teen daughters of proponents are whores!"

Beautiful, and truly shows the disgusting minds and misogyny of the people who REALLY want women to kill their babies.

And funny, it's always guys who claim to be all about what's best for women who revert to this shit.

Boob..who's neg reps to me say things like "whore". And US citizen, who is desperately throwing out any shit he can to discredit women who choose to have children instead of killing them. Palin is a marked woman because she gave birth to a Down's Syndrom child instead of killing it in utero, and her daughter because she's a teenager who dared to give birth instead of being bundled off for a uterine scraping instead of dealing with the consequences of irresponsible sex.

 

[uscitizen]

From your link:

"Comprehensive sex education may help"


Do you know what may means? It means it isn't proven.

50 years, and it isn't proven.

Society keeps on changing. We had a female VP candidate flaunting her unwed pregnant daughter on stage. That would not have happend a decade or so ago now would it?
And the daughter was rewarded with 1/4 million $ for her unwed pregnancy by conservatives.
That would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

Perhaps both sides are progressive?

Oh look, more irrelevant crap to divert away from the truth.

The truth is that American society is changing both sides are changing and this impacts teen preganacy and unwed births.

 

[koshergrl]

And you certainly demonstrated that effectively with your stupid comments about Bristol Palin being a slut.

"Look, conservative teens are hos! That's why we must kill babies!"

 

[BDBoop]

They're not killing their children.

Of course they’re not.

This is typical rightist demagoguery, to ignore the facts and the law of the issue and make a shameful emotional attack.

It’s a concession on her part her ‘argument’ has failed.

No, it's not. My argument hasn't failed at all. The only way you can win the argument is to lie about the humanity of the unborn, to deny the science.

You guys are very committed to killing off minority children.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_eZmEiyTo0]Memorable Movie Death #3: Vizzini From Princess Bride - YouTube[/ame]

 

[koshergrl]

Troll.

 

[JoeB131]

It's kind of meaningless, other than showing that "pro-life" is a warmer, fuzzier term than "pro-choice".

But attempts to actually restrict abortion still go down in defeat in even the reddest of states, such as silly "personhood laws" in places like Mississippi.

Why?

Because when push comes to shove, Conservative, Christian, REpublican women are just as fast to get an abortion to rid themselves of an unwanted pregenancy as a Liberal, Secularist, Democrat.

 

[BDBoop]

Troll.

U haz a sad? I hit the nail on the head, and you didn't like it.

 

[JoeB131]

Time to lay some sanity down on this issue.

First, whatevery you call yourself, Pro-Life or Pro-Choice, is kind of meaningless. There is almost universal agreement that it would be desirable for there to be less abortions, not more of them.

So the question is, how do we get there?

The folks who call themselves Pro-Life have their scheme. Overturn Roe vs. Wade and then get the states to pass laws against abortion. Then women will stop getting abortions, really.

Ummm. Nope. First, even though 8 of the last 12 SCOTUS appointments since Roe have been made by Republicans, the reality is that these justices have upheld Roe at every juncture. But even if they did, it is unlikely you'd get the blue states to pass any meaningful restrictions or even a lot of the red states.

But even in the unlikely event that happens, how effective would those laws be? if we look at the status of such prosecutions before Roe, the answer would be "not very". Women were never convicted of having abortions and the people who provided them were rarely convicted, either. Ruth Barnett, the notorious abortionist who operated between 1918 and 1968 in the Portland area performed 40,000 abortions. She was breifly jailed in 1951. She even published a book entitled "They weep at my doorstep".

It's unlikely laws passed after women have enjoyed abortion rights for 40 years would be any more effective than they were in the 1950's.

The "Pro-Choice" side would also like to see there be less abortions, but they'd like to see it be done in a pragmatic way.

You want less abortions, you do all the things that the Plutocrats and Theocrats that run the GOP don't want.

You have comprehensive sex education training, including teaching about contraception.

You have universal health care including reproductive health services.

You have complete family and medical leave- paid and mandated by law.

That way, you'd have less women getting unwanted pregnancies, and women who do find themselves pregnant earlier than planned will find it easier to keep them.

You know. Makes sense. A solution from the real world people live in.

 

[koshergrl]

Oh yawn, how many times has this crap been regurgitated.

The truth of the matter is, when abortion is illegal, THERE ARE FEWER ABORTIONS. There's no question about it. Nobody denies it, except idealogues who just bulldoze over the truth while constantly trumpeting "WE NEED ABORTION TO PREVENT ABORTION!!! LEGAL ABORTION MEANS FEWER ABORTIONS!!! ABORTION PREVENTS CHILD ABUSE!!!" All of which is proven to be nonsense.

Yes women will still get abortions...there will be the occasional idiot who for whatever reason finds herself in desperate straits and has the number of someone who will do it. That happens now, too. Women who are raped, women who have medical issues..they've always been able to get abortions legally.

I get sick of the dishonesty of people who claim to be "anti-abortion" but who lie about the reality. The reality is when there is legal abortion, there are exponentially more abortions. Women take greater risks if they know they can go to the corner and get an abortion...but really, the ones who rely the heaviest upon legalized abortion are MEN.

They are the ones who fight the hardest to keep it legal, and they are the ones who have the most to lose if abortion is made illegal. Men who coerce women into getting abortions to cover crimes, to cover incest, to accomodate the prostitution and slave industries.

But please, PLEASE quit pretending that abortion reduces the numbers of abortions. It's nonsense, and it's absolutely not true. Quit lying about abortions and child abuse...children are being abused at an alarming rate now, far more severely and more often than ever before. And THOSE numbers coincide with the advent of legal abortion.

And don't insult those of us who really do know the numbers and the topic by saying that *everybody knows* that abortion numbers were greater, even though we have no evidence whatever of that being true, BEFORE Roe v. Wade. That's a lie, and a piss poor one at that.
And while you're at it, stop with the attitude that women are slaves to their sex drive, and criminal besides...because that's what you're saying when you say that "women will still get abortions if abortion is illegal". Yes, a few will. But the majority not only can control themselves when it comes to sex...they are also law abiding.

 

[JoeB131]

Here's the problem with that whole contention.

We don't know how many abortions were happening before they were legal. Because no one involved really talked about it.

I'm old enough to remember what things were like before Roe v. Wade, and yeah, back in those days, there was always "someone who could take care of that problem".

The fact is, the law didn't work before Roe, and any new law would be less effective.

Again, look at the prostitution laws. Prostitution is illegal in every state except Nevada. Yet there's no shortage of massage parlors, strip joints, escort services etc. where you can buy sex. The cops know who is doing it, and they might make a show of busting it, but then it just moves somewhere else.

 

[koshergrl]

Yeah, you effectively dodged that, didn't you.

If you want fewer abortions, then you want abortion illegal. Otherwise, stop lying and using the argument. Even if we didn't know what the numbers were prior to RvW, we know that every year for the next 25 years, abortion numbers increased.

They have leveled off somewhat, and they're still exponentially higher than they were in the early days of RvW.

I find people who claim to be pro-life, but who lie about the reasons we *need* abortion to be even more nauseating than the straight up, proud proponents of baby killing and euthanasia. At least those people come right out and say what their motivation is, they don't hide behind lies to protect their alleged "pro-life" stance.

 

[JoeB131]

I also have to take exception to the contention that men are conspiring to keep abortion legal to avoid responsibility.

Really?

Frankly, that's never been my experience. Most men I know don't even want to talk about the subject much less get the whole "Shut up, you've never had a baby" screamdown.

 

[koshergrl]

Yes, well you're a liar who likes to perpetuate the myth that there were more abortions before RvW than after, so it really doesn't matter what you say.

Do a little research on abortion coercion, and spend some time in an abortion clinic, then get back to me.

 

[JoeB131]

Yeah, you effectively dodged that, didn't you.

If you want fewer abortions, then you want abortion illegal. Otherwise, stop lying and using the argument. Even if we didn't know what the numbers were prior to RvW, we know that every year for the next 25 years, abortion numbers increased.

They have leveled off somewhat, and they're still exponentially higher than they were in the early days of RvW.

I find people who claim to be pro-life, but who lie about the reasons we *need* abortion to be even more nauseating than the straight up, proud proponents of baby killing and euthanasia. At least those people come right out and say what their motivation is, they don't hide behind lies to protect their alleged "pro-life" stance.

I didn't dodge anything.

On a personal level, I just don't care. I know Abortion laws don't work. They don't work in countries like the Philippines, where they are very Catholic and abortion is illegal, but women still get them.

Abortion in the Philippines: a national secret | Reuters

Frankly, read the article... it's not a place where I'd want this country to go.

 

[koshergrl]

And that's a lie. Abortion laws do work, which is why so few got abortions before RvW.

And you do care, because you always end up opining on these threads.

There's also a story about abortion in Africa on Guttmacher's that bemoans the fact that legalized abortion doesn't mean safe abortion, btw. They're killing them like crazy there.

 

[JoeB131]

Yes, well you're a liar who likes to perpetuate the myth that there were more abortions before RvW than after, so it really doesn't matter what you say..

Actually, I've already proven this in previous discussions.

After Roe v. Wade, there was no dramatic drop in the birth rate. In 1972, the last year before Roe, there were 3.2 million live births. In 1974, the first year after Roe, there were 3.1 million.


Live Births and Birth Rates, by Year — Infoplease.com


(True, there was a dramatic drop in the birth rate at the end of the early 1960's, when birth control became available, but after 1970, it was pretty stable.)

so statistically, something was happening to those unwanted pregnancies pre-1972.

Do a little research on abortion coercion, and spend some time in an abortion clinic, then get back to me.

Right. Abortion coercion. Okay.

Never saw that.

Did see a case where a gal stopped taking the pill in the hope she could get her boyfriend to marry her. When he didn't. Right into the sink that went. Then a year later, they got back together and did it again.

If were were logical robots, we wouldn't have an abortion issue. We're not. We're flawed human beings that make mistakes. You can't outlaw mistakes, only legislate how to deal with them.