Recharging your car in twenty minutes

[flacaltenn]

We have the big engineering picture. In it, you are full of shit.

Musk has already developed the charging stations. They are a fact. And some are already in use. In the meantime, you hydrogen powered vehicle is still largely a pipedream powered by prototypes without the range of the Tesla.

What happens if a large percentage of people have a Tesla? Thousands of people charging at the same time, especially in the summer. Wouldn't it overload the grid?

Of course. The zealots -- no matter how much money they con out of govt for their ill-conceived engineering can't discern the diff between Musk/Tesla charging 2 cars a day and what the result on the grid capacity would be if their plan succeeds and there are 10,000 EVs charging a day in 20 minutes. Each sucking the electrical demand of 180 homes.

It's a moral issue to correct false representations like this and the related false expectation that Musk/Tesla is gonna get all this energy from solar panels slightly bigger than a ONE HOME installation.

In the end -- we will have wasted a ton of cash that the Fed doesn't have to try and push a less effective solution to the finish line.. But the MARKET will pick the winner..

 

[Old Rocks]

Well now, Fecal, in case you haven't noticed, Tesla is operating on its own money. The money borrowed from the government was paid back with full interest 9 years early. So what you are railing against is the free enterprise system.

 

[LoneLaugher]

I'm not going to wade into a bunch of numbers with the forum nuclear scientist........that shit will prove itself out. But the idea that a 20 minute delay in a 300 mile trip is going to prevent an intelligent person from using electric for long trips is stupid.

 

[jwoodie]

This is starting to get seriously funny. Just how long do you think it will take some restuarant chain to realize the advantage of having one of these fast charge stations on their property? For hotel and motel chains to have overnight charging?

The "Conservatives" here will tell you they are the people who support business and innovation. Yet here we have an American businessman building the very best EV in the world, with the longest range, installing charging stations across the nation, and all they can do is stand in right field and do the Neener-neener act.

Political paranoia at its finest. Just who do you believe is opposed to longer life batteries or shorter recharging times?

 

[flacaltenn]

This is starting to get seriously funny. Just how long do you think it will take some restuarant chain to realize the advantage of having one of these fast charge stations on their property? For hotel and motel chains to have overnight charging?

The "Conservatives" here will tell you they are the people who support business and innovation. Yet here we have an American businessman building the very best EV in the world, with the longest range, installing charging stations across the nation, and all they can do is stand in right field and do the Neener-neener act.

Political paranoia at its finest. Just who do you believe is opposed to longer life batteries or shorter recharging times?

No one is opposed to longer life batteries.. But BIGGER batteries and SHORTER recharging times are gonna violate some practical concerns about cable sizes and safety and MAINLY the ENORMOUS load that fast-charging puts on the grid generators.

I suppose then -- YOU wouldn't be opposed to adding 100 nuclear power plants to support this good idea ---- Would Ya?? And THAT wouldn't have ANYTHING to do with your "politics" --- Would it??

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Major corporations are starting to have recharging stations in their parking lots for their employees with electric cars. Tesla's stock price is climbing. If the market and the corporate environment are beginning to sustain the electric car, then mainstream acceptance is already upon us.

This is a bad thing for what reason, exactly?

 

[flacaltenn]

Major corporations are starting to have recharging stations in their parking lots for their employees with electric cars. Tesla's stock price is climbing. If the market and the corporate environment are beginning to sustain the electric car, then mainstream acceptance is already upon us.

This is a bad thing for what reason, exactly?

Because we're not thinking thru the implications of pushing "fast charge" grid loading?

And there's much corporate bull getting pitched that is being anxiously inhaled by all those "anti-corporate" types buying EVs as political symbols?

Especially in an era dominated by infinite agitating public service messages asking folks to pull 1Watt chargers out of the wall when not in use --- the folks pushing the NegaWatt, make electricity RARE and EXPENSIVE public policy seem to be the same folks that don't see a problem with a 20minute EV fill-up taking the same amount of generation capability as 180 homes.

It NEEDS some analysis. The market prevents anarchy. And it will eventually order all this.
But thinking ahead and applying common sense and reason would get us there faster.

I'm just a miniscule part of that process.. Trying to provide a minor amount of "consumer awareness" so that folks can separate facts from fantasies...

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Major corporations are starting to have recharging stations in their parking lots for their employees with electric cars. Tesla's stock price is climbing. If the market and the corporate environment are beginning to sustain the electric car, then mainstream acceptance is already upon us.

This is a bad thing for what reason, exactly?

Because we're not thinking thru the implications of pushing "fast charge" grid loading?

And there's much corporate bull getting pitched that is being anxiously inhaled by all those "anti-corporate" types buying EVs as political symbols?

Especially in an era dominated by infinite agitating public service messages asking folks to pull 1Watt chargers out of the wall when not in use --- the folks pushing the NegaWatt, make electricity RARE and EXPENSIVE public policy seem to be the same folks that don't see a problem with a 20minute EV fill-up taking the same amount of generation capability as 180 homes.

It NEEDS some analysis. The market prevents anarchy. And it will eventually order all this.
But thinking ahead and applying common sense and reason would get us there faster.

I'm just a miniscule part of that process.. Trying to provide a minor amount of "consumer awareness" so that folks can separate facts from fantasies...

Perhaps. It just seems that this is something that is moving from the early adopter phase into the early majority phase of the technology adoption lifecycle. Marketing 101 kind of stuff. If the market will bear it, it will happen, despite whatever mistakes might happen along the way. Left alone instead of politicized might be better.

 

[Old Rocks]

Right now, at the main mill, two of our electricians have Leaf's. They both have about a 40 mile daily commute. They love the cars. One has solar on his roof, so now his fuel bill for commuting is zero. The other does not, but says that his increase in electrical has been less than a quarter of what he was spending on fuel.

The EV is a very doable vehicle in an urban setting with its present range. Quadruple that range, and you have a vehicle that can do it all.

 

[flacaltenn]

Major corporations are starting to have recharging stations in their parking lots for their employees with electric cars. Tesla's stock price is climbing. If the market and the corporate environment are beginning to sustain the electric car, then mainstream acceptance is already upon us.

This is a bad thing for what reason, exactly?

Because we're not thinking thru the implications of pushing "fast charge" grid loading?

And there's much corporate bull getting pitched that is being anxiously inhaled by all those "anti-corporate" types buying EVs as political symbols?

Especially in an era dominated by infinite agitating public service messages asking folks to pull 1Watt chargers out of the wall when not in use --- the folks pushing the NegaWatt, make electricity RARE and EXPENSIVE public policy seem to be the same folks that don't see a problem with a 20minute EV fill-up taking the same amount of generation capability as 180 homes.

It NEEDS some analysis. The market prevents anarchy. And it will eventually order all this.
But thinking ahead and applying common sense and reason would get us there faster.

I'm just a miniscule part of that process.. Trying to provide a minor amount of "consumer awareness" so that folks can separate facts from fantasies...

Perhaps. It just seems that this is something that is moving from the early adopter phase into the early majority phase of the technology adoption lifecycle. Marketing 101 kind of stuff. If the market will bear it, it will happen, despite whatever mistakes might happen along the way. Left alone instead of politicized might be better.

So -- it moves into mass adoption phase and NOTHING is done or anticipated about these EXCESSIVE fast-charging demands on the grid.. What do you think is gonna happen? Think the grid generation capacity is gonna greatly increase instantaneously once these cars are in garages? I don't think we have to go thru that expensive mistake of STRANDING ALL electrical consumers with skyrocketing pricing..

These battery EVs will have a purpose to refine the motors, drivetrains and innovative features. But the EV car of the future will have a LOWER OVERALL cost to society and the market. AND it will bring with it -- it's own SUSTAINABLE, ZERO Emission, and storable fuel --- which is Hydrogen. Made by renewals -- off grid. Like renewables OUGHT to be used.

And the consumer won't face Time of Day pricing, or "fast charge" surtaxes or astronomical rates for an emergency build-out of the generation cap. and grid.

Enjoy them while they last.. But PLEASE... Be AWARE of corporate hype and consumer hysteria.. Big EV --- is just as full of it as Big Fast Food.

 

[ScienceRocks]

1. Rebuild the grid to be able to handle such a strain! Some parts of it is very old.
2. Build more nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, thermal, wave power stations to handle the load.

Simple. Instead of rebuilding Afghastan or Syria..How about rebuilding our own nation? Of course within your mind , we can't, and this is why I can no longer side with you any longer on such issues. You're wrong and backwards within your beliefs.

 

[flacaltenn]

1. Rebuild the grid to be able to handle such a strain! Some parts of it is very old.
2. Build more nuclear, hydro, wind, solar, thermal, wave power stations to handle the load.

Simple. Instead of rebuilding Afghastan or Syria..How about rebuilding our own nation? Of course within your mind , we can't, and this is why I can no longer side with you any longer on such issues. You're wrong and backwards within your beliefs.

Matthew.. I deeply respect your admiration for technology and science and your command of the fields. You DO help a LOT in promulgating important events and knowledge. I DREAM about money staying in R&D and the private sector rather than going to projections of American force and colonial like occupations.

If you actually LISTEN to what I'm saying -- I'm proposing a BETTER application for those renewables than putting them on an expensive expanded grid that has to cover every podunk crevice of the country. And -- having to back them up with 100% of some other RELIABLE generation?? Parts of the US north of Tenn are NOT gonna be flush with year-round solar.. Likewise wind has severe siting and delivery problems.

BUT --- if you SITE those 2 renewables where they do the best job and don't care that they can't deliver CONSTANT RELIABLE load generation (only good AVERAGE power generation), they can be used to make hydrogen in remote areas and cover almost the entire CONUS with a hydrogen storage infrastructure. Solves the "buffering and storage" of renewables AND also DOESN'T require a coast to coast expansion of grid and generation.

I can tell you with certitude that the price tag for doing this WRONG --- is much higher than doing it right. And the market will not ever contend with the footdragging and dependence on waiting for govt actions and regulations of the electricity grid expansion.

And I'm 95% certain that the BIG auto manufacturers are getting this and shifting their EV work to fuel cells. Plug-in EVs are part of the evolution of technology, just like the Stanley Steamer.. Their branch will end at massive public infrastructure build-out, but hydrogen is a TRULY new RENEWABLE that can change the game.

WHY --- would society EVER do this the hard way?

This isn't MY invention.. This is a basic undercurrent going on in technology and the free market. And I'm not the only one "that gets it".. I suspect you will soon see Boone Pickens or George Soros coming up with a NEW plan for a Hydrogen infrastructure

 

[Old Rocks]

Because we're not thinking thru the implications of pushing "fast charge" grid loading?

And there's much corporate bull getting pitched that is being anxiously inhaled by all those "anti-corporate" types buying EVs as political symbols?

Especially in an era dominated by infinite agitating public service messages asking folks to pull 1Watt chargers out of the wall when not in use --- the folks pushing the NegaWatt, make electricity RARE and EXPENSIVE public policy seem to be the same folks that don't see a problem with a 20minute EV fill-up taking the same amount of generation capability as 180 homes.

It NEEDS some analysis. The market prevents anarchy. And it will eventually order all this.
But thinking ahead and applying common sense and reason would get us there faster.

I'm just a miniscule part of that process.. Trying to provide a minor amount of "consumer awareness" so that folks can separate facts from fantasies...

Perhaps. It just seems that this is something that is moving from the early adopter phase into the early majority phase of the technology adoption lifecycle. Marketing 101 kind of stuff. If the market will bear it, it will happen, despite whatever mistakes might happen along the way. Left alone instead of politicized might be better.

So -- it moves into mass adoption phase and NOTHING is done or anticipated about these EXCESSIVE fast-charging demands on the grid.. What do you think is gonna happen? Think the grid generation capacity is gonna greatly increase instantaneously once these cars are in garages? I don't think we have to go thru that expensive mistake of STRANDING ALL electrical consumers with skyrocketing pricing..

These battery EVs will have a purpose to refine the motors, drivetrains and innovative features. But the EV car of the future will have a LOWER OVERALL cost to society and the market. AND it will bring with it -- it's own SUSTAINABLE, ZERO Emission, and storable fuel --- which is Hydrogen. Made by renewals -- off grid. Like renewables OUGHT to be used.

And the consumer won't face Time of Day pricing, or "fast charge" surtaxes or astronomical rates for an emergency build-out of the generation cap. and grid.

Enjoy them while they last.. But PLEASE... Be AWARE of corporate hype and consumer hysteria.. Big EV --- is just as full of it as Big Fast Food.

So you like hydrogen. OK. I thought we would go that way, several years back. But the battery technology is pretty well blowing that idea away. And hydrogen still has not solved it's own fuel capacity problems.

The EV's are here to stay. The fuel cell technology and hydrogen storage technology has not kept up with the battery technology. People like Elon Musk would have gone with that Tech, were there a real future in it.

 

[Old Rocks]

Grid scale batteries makes the siting of renewable power irrelevant.

 

[flacaltenn]

Grid scale batteries makes the siting of renewable power irrelevant.

Grid scale batteries would easily DOUBLE the cost of a significant Solar or Wind farm build.. And they would represent TONS of toxic material siting on the farm.. Not already expensive enough for you?

The Japanese are doing SOME of this because they are BETTER engineers and won't ALLOW wind or solar on their grids without a MINIMUM of local storage. But that's the equivalent of 10 or 20 MINUTES of typical capacity..

But when the wind don't blow most of Wednesday -- those batteries become useless expensive "feature"...

EVEN IF I BELIEVED that "grid scale batteries ... makes siting irrelevent".. YOU'D STILL BE WRONG. Because NOBODY is planning significant Solar Capacity above the Mason Dixon Line. And WIND leaves large portions of the CONUS bare. Don't even know why you would make such a wrong sweeping statement like that..

You keep repeating this lie about HFCVehicles having a "capacity" problem. No such thing exists.. It's largely a PRICE problem right now. NO problem to match a full Tesla range and no SOCIETAL CRISIS generated from fueling it in less than 10 minutes. That's today.

VP of Toyota development says you're wrong. Hyundai and BMW says you're wrong. The adults are in charge -- I guess..

 

[Old Rocks]

Grid scale batteries makes the siting of renewable power irrelevant.

Grid scale batteries would easily DOUBLE the cost of a significant Solar or Wind farm build.. And they would represent TONS of toxic material siting on the farm.. Not already expensive enough for you?

The Japanese are doing SOME of this because they are BETTER engineers and won't ALLOW wind or solar on their grids without a MINIMUM of local storage. But that's the equivalent of 10 or 20 MINUTES of typical capacity..

But when the wind don't blow most of Wednesday -- those batteries become useless expensive "feature"...

EVEN IF I BELIEVED that "grid scale batteries ... makes siting irrelevent".. YOU'D STILL BE WRONG. Because NOBODY is planning significant Solar Capacity above the Mason Dixon Line. And WIND leaves large portions of the CONUS bare. Don't even know why you would make such a wrong sweeping statement like that..

You keep repeating this lie about HFCVehicles having a "capacity" problem. No such thing exists.. It's largely a PRICE problem right now. NO problem to match a full Tesla range and no SOCIETAL CRISIS generated from fueling it in less than 10 minutes. That's today.

VP of Toyota development says you're wrong. Hyundai and BMW says you're wrong. The adults are in charge -- I guess..

Amazing how you make stupid comments in total ignorance.

Ontario Solar Farms ? Canada ? First Solar


Amherstburg

10 MW solar farm planned for development on a 196 acre (79 ha) parcel of land located in the Town of Amherstburg (north of Middle Sideroad, east of Concession 2 North and west of Concession 3 North).

Belmont

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 448 acre s(181 ha) of land located northwest of the Town of Belmont (north of 7th Avenue, south of Scotland Drive and east of Old Victoria Road).


St Clair: Moore Solar Farm

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 297 acres (120 ha) located northeast of Mooretown in the Township of St. Clair (north of Rokeby Line, west of Highway 40).


St Clair: Sombra Solar Farm

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 347 acres (140 ha) of land located east of Sombra Village in Township of St. Clair (south of Bentpath Line, east of Baseline Road).


Walpole

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 344 acres (139 ha) of land located in the eastern portion of the former City of Nanticoke (north of Army Camp Road, south of Mud Street and east of County Line 74).

Thus far, I have seen 3 differant Tesla S's, all kinds of Leaf's and Volt's, and even a Thing or two, and EV Scions, also. With owners driving them. The only hydrogen fuel cell car I have seen was at a car show, a prototype that I never saw actually driven.

Whatever advantages you claim, the market apparently isn't buying the claims.

 

[flacaltenn]

Grid scale batteries makes the siting of renewable power irrelevant.

Grid scale batteries would easily DOUBLE the cost of a significant Solar or Wind farm build.. And they would represent TONS of toxic material siting on the farm.. Not already expensive enough for you?

The Japanese are doing SOME of this because they are BETTER engineers and won't ALLOW wind or solar on their grids without a MINIMUM of local storage. But that's the equivalent of 10 or 20 MINUTES of typical capacity..

But when the wind don't blow most of Wednesday -- those batteries become useless expensive "feature"...

EVEN IF I BELIEVED that "grid scale batteries ... makes siting irrelevent".. YOU'D STILL BE WRONG. Because NOBODY is planning significant Solar Capacity above the Mason Dixon Line. And WIND leaves large portions of the CONUS bare. Don't even know why you would make such a wrong sweeping statement like that..

You keep repeating this lie about HFCVehicles having a "capacity" problem. No such thing exists.. It's largely a PRICE problem right now. NO problem to match a full Tesla range and no SOCIETAL CRISIS generated from fueling it in less than 10 minutes. That's today.

VP of Toyota development says you're wrong. Hyundai and BMW says you're wrong. The adults are in charge -- I guess..

Amazing how you make stupid comments in total ignorance.

Ontario Solar Farms ? Canada ? First Solar


Amherstburg

10 MW solar farm planned for development on a 196 acre (79 ha) parcel of land located in the Town of Amherstburg (north of Middle Sideroad, east of Concession 2 North and west of Concession 3 North).

Belmont

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 448 acre s(181 ha) of land located northwest of the Town of Belmont (north of 7th Avenue, south of Scotland Drive and east of Old Victoria Road).


St Clair: Moore Solar Farm

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 297 acres (120 ha) located northeast of Mooretown in the Township of St. Clair (north of Rokeby Line, west of Highway 40).


St Clair: Sombra Solar Farm

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 347 acres (140 ha) of land located east of Sombra Village in Township of St. Clair (south of Bentpath Line, east of Baseline Road).


Walpole

20 MW solar farm planned for development on 344 acres (139 ha) of land located in the eastern portion of the former City of Nanticoke (north of Army Camp Road, south of Mud Street and east of County Line 74).

Thus far, I have seen 3 differant Tesla S's, all kinds of Leaf's and Volt's, and even a Thing or two, and EV Scions, also. With owners driving them. The only hydrogen fuel cell car I have seen was at a car show, a prototype that I never saw actually driven.

Whatever advantages you claim, the market apparently isn't buying the claims.

You poor deluded soul.. Bless your heart (old southern comfort saying pal)..

Firm sells solar panels - to itself, taxpayers pay | WashingtonExaminer.com

Firm sells solar panels - to itself, taxpayers pay
BY: TIMOTHY P. CARNEY MARCH 18, 2012 | MODIFIED: MARCH 22, 2012 AT 11:57 AM

A heavily subsidized solar company received a U.S. taxpayer loan guarantee to sell solar panels to itself.

First Solar is the company. The subsidy came from the Export-Import Bank, which President Obama and Harry Reid are currently fighting to extend and expand. The underlying issue is how Obama's insistence on green-energy subsidies and export subsidies manifests itself as rank corporate welfare.

Here's the road of subsidies these solar panels followed from Perrysburg, Ohio, to St. Clair, Ontario.

In September 2011, Ex-Im approved $455.7 million in loan guarantees to subsidize the sale of solar panels to two solar farms in Canada. That means if the solar farm ever defaults, the taxpayers pick up the tab, ensuring First Solar gets paid.

But the buyer, in this case, was First Solar.

A small corporation called St. Clair Solar owned the solar farm and was the Canadian company buying First Solar's panels. But St. Clair Solar was a wholly owned subsidiary of First Solar. So, basically, First Solar was shipping its own solar panels from Ohio to a solar farm it owned in Canada, and the U.S. taxpayers were subsidizing this "export."

First Solar spokesman Alan Bernheimer defended this maneuver, saying this really was an export, pointing out that First Solar paid sales taxes on the transaction.

But this subsidy undermines the arguments for Ex-Im's existence. Ex-Im, whose authorization expires May 31, is supposed to be a job creator, helping U.S. manufacturers beat foreign manufacturers by having U.S. taxpayers backstop the financing.

That company is LIVING off the taxpayers and their benefactor Barack Obama. Here they get double subsidies to build the panels, AND export them to THEMSELVES in Canada of all places. This is in addition to whatever subsidies they are getting from Canada.

Boosting their stock by selling their product to themselves. All subsidized NOT BY THE MARKET --- but by governments.

IN CANADA????

What kind of production are they gonna get on shorter days from October to March with 6 inches of snow load on the panels? It'll create jobs all right. It'll look something like this.

How many acres of broom sweepers do we need??

 

[whitehall]

Watch out for the qualifiers like "imagine" and "later this year". If the crap worked and was cheap enough "later this year" or next year or in 30 years we might use it. You almost gotta laugh that the industry is raving about a total of around 9,000 units sold in a year between the entire electric car industry. Ford sold 60,000 Edsel's the first year of production and we consider the model to be a failure today.

 

[Jimmy_Jam]

Because we're not thinking thru the implications of pushing "fast charge" grid loading?

And there's much corporate bull getting pitched that is being anxiously inhaled by all those "anti-corporate" types buying EVs as political symbols?

Especially in an era dominated by infinite agitating public service messages asking folks to pull 1Watt chargers out of the wall when not in use --- the folks pushing the NegaWatt, make electricity RARE and EXPENSIVE public policy seem to be the same folks that don't see a problem with a 20minute EV fill-up taking the same amount of generation capability as 180 homes.

It NEEDS some analysis. The market prevents anarchy. And it will eventually order all this.
But thinking ahead and applying common sense and reason would get us there faster.

I'm just a miniscule part of that process.. Trying to provide a minor amount of "consumer awareness" so that folks can separate facts from fantasies...

Perhaps. It just seems that this is something that is moving from the early adopter phase into the early majority phase of the technology adoption lifecycle. Marketing 101 kind of stuff. If the market will bear it, it will happen, despite whatever mistakes might happen along the way. Left alone instead of politicized might be better.

So -- it moves into mass adoption phase and NOTHING is done or anticipated about these EXCESSIVE fast-charging demands on the grid.. What do you think is gonna happen? Think the grid generation capacity is gonna greatly increase instantaneously once these cars are in garages? I don't think we have to go thru that expensive mistake of STRANDING ALL electrical consumers with skyrocketing pricing..

These battery EVs will have a purpose to refine the motors, drivetrains and innovative features. But the EV car of the future will have a LOWER OVERALL cost to society and the market. AND it will bring with it -- it's own SUSTAINABLE, ZERO Emission, and storable fuel --- which is Hydrogen. Made by renewals -- off grid. Like renewables OUGHT to be used.

And the consumer won't face Time of Day pricing, or "fast charge" surtaxes or astronomical rates for an emergency build-out of the generation cap. and grid.

Enjoy them while they last.. But PLEASE... Be AWARE of corporate hype and consumer hysteria.. Big EV --- is just as full of it as Big Fast Food.

I'm not saying it's not a legitimate concern, I just don't know if it is as "gloom and doom" as you are saying.

 

[mamooth]

Elon Musk just demonstrated battery swapping for the Tesla, done in a minute. The Tesla is now the best selling EV in the USA. Consumer Reports gave it the best rating they've ever given for any car.

'Course, at $90k, it better be good.