Religion and Ethics 2.0

[emilynghiem]

Dear RWS
Please explain what you mean.
1. which way is incorrect
2. which is the correct way of thinking
3. also what do you mean by what I believe from birth?

The Inquisition and the Crusades

^ Antichrist not Christ ^

RWS just like today's parties and govt
are not following the Constitution.

So if you looked at what is happening in politics,
if you thought THAT was the meaning of Constitutional laws
you'd see the exact opposite instead!

No Emily, this is what you believe from birth. It's incorrect. You have to learn a new way about thinking of things.

PS
RWS
I was born to Vietnamese Buddhist parents.
What do you mean what I believe by birth?

I am more like you, a SECULAR gentile by nature, I think in SECULAR terms that's
why I identify as Constitutionalist because those are based on Natural Laws.
That's how I believe, that all human nature is basically consistent,
and we need to use our free speech and press to communicate to resolve
the sources of corruption and missing or flawed information/perceptions
in order to resolve our own problems by free will and reason by consent.

1. Free will is the basis of free EXERCISE of religion, FREE CHOICE in thought, word and action
2. including Free speech, freedom of written expression and ability to communicate and document
3. Peaceful ASSEMBLY and right to PETITION to REDRESS grievances,
as part of democratic participation and DUE PROCESS of laws
4. CONSENT of the governed, no taxation without representation, and
5. Equal protection of the laws for EQUAL JUSTICE and equal inclusion without "discrimination by creed"

Do YOU understand there are both
A. Natural laws and Scriptural laws that Jesus as Justice fulfills
SO THERE IS BOTH SCIENCE/REASON for the SECULAR GENTILES under NATURAL LAWS
and there is faith based reconciliation through the SPIRITUAL laws and authority for believers
AND BOTH ARE IN THE SAME BIBLE TAUGHT BY THE SAME JESUS

B. THERE IS CORRUPTION OF BOTH THE CHURCH AND THE STATE
AND NEITHER TYPE OF CORRUPT FORM IS THE TRUE INTENDED TEACHINGS BUT
BY DEFINITION IS A CORRUPTION OF THEM.

RWS the difference between you and me
is how much we FORGIVE past conflicts so we can
SEPARATE what is the true teaching from the FALSE CORRUPTION.

You are like throwing out all SCIENCE because of the SCIENCE ERRORS CORRUPTING IT.

When people make MISTAKES ABUSING SCIENCE
WE CORRECT IT USING SCIENCE, NOT THROWING OUT SCIENCE because of bad science!

When people make MISTAKES USING MATH WE CORRECT THEM USING MATH.
We don't throw out ALL MATH just because someone abused it to add and multiply wrong!

You baffle me RWS but I love you anyway.
You are a secular gentile as I am but you speak
a different dialect that doesn't include religion in your vocabulary
so I would like to know what you mean
so I can talk with you without going in circles.
Dizzying but thank you

Please explain 1, 2, 3 above at the top ^
Thank you, sir!

 

[emilynghiem]

The Inquisition and the Crusades

^ Antichrist not Christ ^

RWS just like today's parties and govt
are not following the Constitution.

So if you looked at what is happening in politics,
if you thought THAT was the meaning of Constitutional laws
you'd see the exact opposite instead!

I see religio9n as being a catalyst of evil Throughout history. It has been used as a means of war, and killing, and rape, and abductions, since the creation of religions.

It's an evil tool. It's the most horrific thing humanity has ever created.

And it's why YOU, are here. They killed everybody else.

And you were born into your religion.

It probably wouldn't have been your religion anyways. You're probably of Jewish descent, and now converted to the master's religion.

????

No, RWS I was not born into whatever religion you are citing which I hardly recognize.

My understanding of the meaning of Jesus as RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
is fulfilling the NATURAL LAWS which are universal. I see the Bible more
like Jefferson did, except he went further and dismissed the miracles and
things outside his empirical understanding. I happen to be okay with that
because I know people who do spiritual healing and have spiritual visions
and see things like that on a dream like level of astral dimension so I leave that to them.

I don't see visions like that but I know people who do, it's real for them, so I don't exclude that part. I just don't relate to or require it for me or others, but stick to Natural Laws I do
understand and can explain to others that affects us in relations and in society.

I believe in NATURAL LAWS which I thought you did as well as an Atheist.

I get along fine with my other Atheist friends who believe in Peace and Justice
and Restorative Justice approaches to reforming society and also Govt and criminal justice.

We believe in forgiveness and compassion and inclusion of diversity
as enough to change the world.
I just happen to take that INCLUSION of diverse beliefs to a political extreme
and believe in sharing responsibility for negotiating with political opposition to include
their objections and input in order to solve problems together, not excluding people we have problems with,
but inviting them to address and solve the conflicts we have with each other.

So I take "the right to petition to redress grievances" to an extreme
with free speech and press to RESOLVE CONFLICTS to stop all causes of abuse and oppression.

I believe that PETITIONING to REDRESS conflicts will stop all killing and rape and crime and war
AS A RESULT of resolving conflicts by RESTORATIVE JUSTICE.

Can we talk about my beliefs and yours and not
this other stuff I wasn't born into?

My Buddhist parents also have respected natural laws
and work ethics. I was born into that.

I think you and I have more in common and just
can't understand where you got that I was born into whatever
religion you think is behind the Crusades. Please explain?

 

[emilynghiem]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

??? RWS I think you are talking about the
OT relationship with God that led to genocide.
That is Old School relationship, when people
historically used laws and authority to enforce and
invoke power by "judgement and punishment."

No, I told you already I don't believe in ANY God of "retributive justice."
(But I do see that PEOPLE who DO invoke that God of judgment
on others DO REAP IT ON THEMSELVES! I don't want that for
anyone but I do see it happen, where people who judge and
condemn others gets jumped on the same way right back.)

The point of the NT is RESTORATIVE JUSTICE
that voids the need for judgment for punishment
because the FOCUS IS ON FORGIVENESS AND CORRECTION.

The proper use of JUDGMENT is to "judge righteous judgment"
as we are doing here trying to pinpoint conflicts in communication
and correct them so we can both talk about the same thing
we believe in which is true ethics and true beliefs that don't harm anyone.

We both want to renounce and get away from ANYTHING harmful
and abusive causing war, rape and killing (and profit off false
religious wars abuses etc.).

The language/perception difference is that you use
"religion" to mean a particular ABUSIVE theology of war and dominance
while I use "religion" NEUTRALLY to mean a language or system
that can either be used for good or abused for bad.

We use this term "religion" to mean totally different things.
I apologize and prefer to change terms if this is so offensive
to you that you cannot see how anyone could use it neutrally.

Sorry about that, amibro
But please do not go off and conjecture as to why I am
neutral about the word religion, by assuming I must be
born into some religion? If I were born into it I would
not be neutral about the terms. Part of the reason I am
so DETACHED from it is I WASN'T taught it to begin with.

I study it as a language like math or science, totally NEUTRAL VARIABLES
that have no meaning except what people AGREE to assign to the words!

Sorry again,
are you projecting because you were brought up Catholic?
I was not, is this fear that I was coming from conditioning
that YOU had to change and learn a new way of thinking?
is this what you are referring to?

I'm just glad I wasn't brought up Christian or Catholic
because now I can look at those things objectively and neutrally
because I wasn't conditioned to see them one way or another.
I didn't understand them and still don't quite understand
how people can teach the Bible the way they do except
they make sense to each other. As a secular gentile I think
in NATURAL laws and terms, so I am probably more like Jefferson.

I speak more naturally in terms of Constitutional principles
and process for "redressing grievances" to resolve conflicts
and arrive at common understanding by free choice and mutual consent.

Here are my basic principles
ethics-commission.net

 

[RWS]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

 

[RWS]

How did you find that religion Emily?

Did you discover it one day on your own research, or was it what your parents told you? Be honest.Which I know you will be.

Because I'm the same way.

 

[emilynghiem]

How did you find that religion Emily?

Did you discover it one day on your own research, or was it what your parents told you? Be honest.Which I know you will be.

Dear RWS
1. In 1990 I was in the process of resolving an emotionally abusive relationship where I had suffered
relationship fraud and had been severely traumatized by previous events I had blamed on myself.
When I discovered there had been multiple incidents of fraud, I went into shock and had to realize
the relationship was over.

It was when I FORGAVE all the horrible things that had happened against
my will and without my knowledge and consent, where I had been horribly betrayed and blamed and judged for going along with all this I didn't understand, that's when I had a spiritual revelation about where the KARMA had come from that was repeating in my life and my relationships. It turned out it was connected to spiritual KARMA that both my parents and my ex's parents had been through, they hadn't resolved it, so it was repeating again.

(RWS it was like a calm right before the second half of the storm hits.
I remember after I forgave, I felt such peace, I suddenly realized I was FREE from the past and could start OVER. So I felt no bad feelings at all. I remember being relieved, and looking forward to going on.)

But while meditating on this, and thinking about my family, that's whey the REVELATIONS hit about why my family needed to forgive the past so they could move on. And all my family karma, past and future started flashing before my eyes in a huge "brainstorm."

I went into some kind of accelerated mindset as I started seeing VISIONS of how events from PAST GENERATIONS predict and correlate/influence changes in relationships IN THE FUTURE.

So that was shocking enough.

But the most mindblowing "enlightening" part was recognizing this same process I
could suddenly see happening with me, my relations in connection with my family,
WAS HAPPENING WITH EVERYONE. ALL HUMANITY ALL SOCIETY COLLECTIVELY
goes through this same pattern and process of RESOLVING PAST KARMA.

The revelations I saw flashing through my mind like dreams on fast forward
were not only about my life, past and future, but all humanity and where
church, state, society, world wars and world peace are all heading toward - a final resolution.
Where all past karma is going to be resolved so we all find world peace.

WTFFFFF????

All because I had decided to let go and forgive and start over.
And my brain opened up to the future, and suddenly connected with it on a level that
went far beyond what I thought I was trying to do. I just wanted to make peace
with this very horrible traumatizing series of abuses, and it ended up being all that!

The SAME process it would take me just to make peace with myself, my family
and my friends and relations around me, and SUDDENLY it hits me like Einstein
that this is a microcosm of what the whole world is going through, it's all connected,
and anything I do is "interconnected" with other people around me making peace as well.

The "ripple effect" means we are going to get to world peace by the time I am done,
my family makes peace, the community around me makes peace, that's how world peace comes about.

(and because it's interconnected, as all one co-influencing process, then we "help each other" through it -- where I get stuck with my family, I go help someone else who's stuck with their community problems, and vice versa. The more I help others, the more others help me and my friends and family. We just keep forgiving and correcting, reconciling one relationship at a time, and the process grows until we solve all our problems, individually and collectively)

2. Where this connects with Buddhism, Christianity and Constitutionalism.

Having all these revelations going through my mind 90 mph
I struggled to find spiritual counseling help to understand this "world peace" process
I saw happening all at once, past present and future, like a movie already written and on the reel,
just in process of being played linearly where we can see it step by step. But it's already written as if it's a done deal.

Of COURSE the first place I ask my Mom to take me is to go see the nearest Buddhist monk
because this must be what it's like to be ENLIGHTENED and suddenly see the INTERCONNECTEDNESS
of all things in the universe, across time and space and human history.
I just KNEW this is what Buddha and Jesus saw when God talked to them and told them both the past and the future.

I went to Buddhists and I went to Christian counselors and also DEMANDED
that my mother come with me to see psychiatric counselors and try to work out this
sudden "reactive psychosis" episode that we assume was tied to all the personal and family trauma of the past.

Everywhere I went, people had their OWN problems and karma to deal with. So again,
this became an INTERACTIVE process, which is why I say that all people are in "group therapy" -- we are all in recovery from SOMETHING and helping each other through the stages of grief.

During this time RWS of trying to MAP OUT the principles and patterns
for the abstract ideas coming through me nonstop (for about 6 months from May - Sept/Oct 1990)
that's where I mapped out the basic "trinity" in every religion as the universal pattern
that all laws are based on because humans are "mind/body/spirit" so we PROJECT
this pattern onto all religions ever made up by man to try to represent the divine collective truth and history of human spirituality.

I even mapped out the Two Principles in Buddhism that correspond
with the Two Great Commandments in Christianity. So it became clear
that each religion has 2-3 PRINCIPLES that correspond to their relative "trinity" symbols.

And this is like the ROSETTA STONE for translating back and forth between systems.

The real truth about humanity's development in stages is Universal beyond any local religion or system of expression.

But each system seeks to capture and reflect AN ANGLE on the greater process going on.
So each tribe follows that angle or path, and collectively all humanity is seeking to fulfill their own path
regardless which LANGUAGE they identify with and form groups around for social organization and development in communities.

When it came to Constitutionalism, that's where I got involved in trying to establish
the basic Constitutional principles that I felt would correct and prevent all the abuses and corruption I saw going on.

By the time I got involved in these community and political struggles to "redress grievances"
what started as a 2-5 year project became 20-25 and that's where I am today.

If anything I identify as Constitutionalist and took a public oath to uphold the First Amendment to the US Constitution and all religions protected thereunder. (and have regretted doing that to this day, as equal protection of the laws is the hardest vow to uphold and live by, it's impossible where people do not want to treat each other equally but all demand equal rights, so trying to defend all people's rights and beliefs equally can't be done if they don't agree to respect the same)

3. While I was volunteering trying to help with the Freedmen's Town issues, I met a volunteer
who does Christian spiritual healing and deliverance prayer. And that's where I believe the connection
had happened with forgiveness and prayer opening the door for all things to change.

Agreeing to forgive in the past, and praying later in the future for forgiveness over all time and space
somehow created a VORTEX where everything became part of one huge process of reconciliation.

Once I understood that FORGIVENESS and prayer to break "generational curses/sins" (what Christians
call this process) IS THE SAME AS WHAT BUDDHISTS TEACH ABOUT LIBERATION FROM PAST KARMA,
then it became even MORE clear that THIS is what means to fulfill both the teachings in both Buddhism and Christianity.

This divine forgiveness that breaks the cycles of past suffering and injustice
so people can start over with new lives is the same meaning that both
East and West teach in different ways.

In general RWS the ABSTRACT CONCEPTS CAME TO ME FIRST.
They had no words, just understanding of peace in the future,
and ideas that the world would be at peace.

And SECONDLY then I went running to different sources to try to
MATCH WORDS AND SYMBOLS and PRINCIPLES to these ideas.

So that's why I use Buddhism, Christianity and Constitutional terms
in more ABSTRACT UNIVERSAL PRINCIPLES that transcend the literal traditions.

The MEANING in terms of WORLD PEACE and complete TRANSFORMATION
to whatever you call "Heaven on Earth" or "the Kingdom of God" came to my
understanding first, as if this was a place already planned on a map.

And then I ended up using whatever religious symbolism or language it
took to DESCRIBE this process to other people, so I speak to whichever
audience it is "the best I can" using the language they respond to.
Even though I mangle it quite a bit because these futuristic visions
don't always fit into the past ways of using these religions literally.

 

[ding]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

 

[Taz]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

So your saying that Islam is a force for good? The head chopping for Allah and all the rest?

 

[ding]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

So your saying that Islam is a force for good? The head chopping for Allah and all the rest?

Yes and no.

 

[Taz]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

So your saying that Islam is a force for good? The head chopping for Allah and all the rest?

Yes and no.

So you're walking back that you said religion is a force for good. Bravo.

 

[ding]

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

So your saying that Islam is a force for good? The head chopping for Allah and all the rest?

Yes and no.

So you're walking back that you said religion is a force for good. Bravo.

No. You have to weigh everything.

 

[ding]

#winning

 

[emilynghiem]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

Dear ding and RWS:
The three of us are talking about 3 different things:
1. I was trying to talk about "religions" as neutral systems that could be used for Good or Bad.
Like mapping out systems of VARIABLES:
What does God/Jesus/HolySpirit represent?
What does Judicial/Legislative/Executive do?
What is the relationship between Mind/Body/Spirit or Superego/Ego/Id?
And use these BASIC systems (that are given/presented in different LANGUAGES)
to describe the RELATIONSHIP between
Individual or Physical level
Collective or Abstract Level
and the Intermediary Level between them joining these two in Relationship
What are the LAWS or PRINCIPLES governing this RELATIONSHIP?

2. That's NOT what RWS means by Religion
What RWS INSISTS on using "Religion" for is
DOGMA particularly THEOCRATIC when Religious beliefs
are mixed with POLITICAL POWER OR GOVT to become
Crusades, Inquisitions etc.

I also was trying to question: Doesn't the same thing happen with
other Political Regimes and Religions such as
Chinese COMMUNIST GOVT committed mass oppression
and genocide but they don't believe in God, they claim supreme
authority without that!

So POLITICAL RELIGIONS should be included as well,
with or without faith in God or Jesus to blame it on.

But RWS isn't talking about that.
His background is coming from Catholic indoctrination
so his answer right now is to REJECT AND RENOUNCE
that indoctrination as the FIRST STEP.

That's where he is right now. Just renouncing and admitting
there is something wrong with how religions are taught.

3. ding what you are talking about is equally seeing the
GOOD that is either offered or done by religions, and not
just seeing the bad.

That's a THIRD approach, and that's not where RWS is.

ding, all I can say is people go through STAGES OF GRIEF
to get to full recovery and RESOLUTION at the end of the process.

The earliest stage is waking up from denial and SEEING FOR
THE FIRST TIME that abuses and falseness was going on.
And possibly going into shock that other people don't see
this but appear to be "carrying on in denial."

It can cause OUTRAGE and just plain REBELLION against
others who appear to be ENABLING the abuse to continue.

Until we FORGIVE this outrage, this DICHOTOMY between
what the world is teaching and the TRUTH we know is
higher and better than the BS going on, we stay in a state
of denial and stuckness EQUAL TO THE PEOPLE WE BLAME AND JUDGE.

Unfortunately I cannot change this for people.
They have to choose to forgive, just like I had to choose to forgive
and let go of all the HORRIBLE UNFORGIVEABLE ABUSES that
had me in a total state of RAGE that I suffered because of
OTHER PEOPLE's BS!

I was FURIOUS that I had TRIED to act in earnest and accommodate
other people, but they did all kinds of things behind my back and didn't
tell me in advance, so all my decisions had been badly compromised,
and I had take the blame and hit for decisions I thought I had done right.

ding I had to forgive all that, before I could let it all go and start
over WITH A FRESH MIND and not carry any of that with me.

When people do this, we don't see things the same way with the
same biases, but DOORS open up where we can see the future
solutions and solve problems by taking steps WITHOUT the
emotional baggage and BLAME blocking and biasing our perceptions.

The SAME PROBLEMS and CONFLICTS still exist, but we don't
push to "force others" to change, we take the approach of changing
things together, where if we want something to change, we change
our perception and approach or way of communicating to accommodate
the other person so they reciprocate and together we change the situation.

ding if you want to communicate YOUR point #3 above to RWS
what would you change about your approach that would be the
EQUIVALENT of RWS letting go to the same degree to change his approach?

With me, I realized he doesn't use the words Religion as neutral terms like I do.
I realized he kept questioning me as going through the process HE went through
which is his only understanding of the DIFFERENCE between before and after.
He KNOWS there is something HORRIBLY WRONG with how religions are taught
where this causes mass killings and unexplicable war/genocide he can only see
is tied to justification from some faith in God gone wrong. So his solutions is
to RENOUNCE this whole religion thing to get away from whatever causes that!

That's okay, I changed my approach to let's talk about this without defending
either Religion or how people use it. Let's not use those terms and lets talk
about our PROCESS of how did I come to MY beliefs, and compare with how
did RWS come to where he is right now. Why we both believe as we do.

Let's talk about that and see if we can figure out HOW TO TALK ABOUT
the PROBLEMS OF DEADLY ABUSE AND OPPRESSION we are both opposed to.

ding even if we never agree on common language, I can just adjust to
RWS terms for these things, even if he uses "Religion" and "Ethics" differently
where I don't think that's universal SO WHAT.
When I am talking with RWS it doesn't matter if he calls God "Dog" or calls
Antichrist "Crusades" - whatever he means and calls things by, I decided
to go ahead and use HIS language so we can at least GET THROUGH THE
CONVERSATION WITHOUT ARGUING OVER THE MIXED TERMS.

I don't use "Religion" and "Ethics" the way RWS does or needs to.

So to speak with someone like RWS coming from this dialect
I switch over to THEIR language and quit using terms that don't
mean the same thing under both his system and mine. There are
too many controversial "associations" attached to "religion" to use it.

So that's the big change I am offering to get somewhere in this discussion.

What is the equivalent on your side ding If you want RWS to meet
you halfway, it helps if you make the first move and show you are
willing to stretch and give up part of your approach to work with him.

I can't use the word "religion" at all with RWS or we go in circles
arguing about it. So I offer to drop that term and let's talk without that.

 

[ding]

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

Dear ding and RWS:
The three of us are talking about 3 different things:
1. I was trying to talk about "religions" as neutral systems that could be used for Good or Bad.
Like mapping out systems of VARIABLES:
What does God/Jesus/HolySpirit represent?
What does Judicial/Legislative/Executive do?
What is the relationship between Mind/Body/Spirit or Superego/Ego/Id?
And use these BASIC systems (that are given/presented in different LANGUAGES)
to describe the RELATIONSHIP between
Individual or Physical level
Collective or Abstract Level
and the Intermediary Level between them joining these two in Relationship
What are the LAWS or PRINCIPLES governing this RELATIONSHIP?

2. That's NOT what RWS means by Religion
What RWS INSISTS on using "Religion" for is
DOGMA particularly THEOCRATIC when Religious beliefs
are mixed with POLITICAL POWER OR GOVT to become
Crusades, Inquisitions etc.

I also was trying to question: Doesn't the same thing happen with
other Political Regimes and Religions such as
Chinese COMMUNIST GOVT committed mass oppression
and genocide but they don't believe in God, they claim supreme
authority without that!

So POLITICAL RELIGIONS should be included as well,
with or without faith in God or Jesus to blame it on.

But RWS isn't talking about that.
His background is coming from Catholic indoctrination
so his answer right now is to REJECT AND RENOUNCE
that indoctrination as the FIRST STEP.

That's where he is right now. Just renouncing and admitting
there is something wrong with how religions are taught.

3. ding what you are talking about is equally seeing the
GOOD that is either offered or done by religions, and not
just seeing the bad.

That's a THIRD approach, and that's not where RWS is.

ding, all I can say is people go through STAGES OF GRIEF
to get to full recovery and RESOLUTION at the end of the process.

The earliest stage is waking up from denial and SEEING FOR
THE FIRST TIME that abuses and falseness was going on.
And possibly going into shock that other people don't see
this but appear to be "carrying on in denial."

It can cause OUTRAGE and just plain REBELLION against
others who appear to be ENABLING the abuse to continue.

Until we FORGIVE this outrage, this DICHOTOMY between
what the world is teaching and the TRUTH we know is
higher and better than the BS going on, we stay in a state
of denial and stuckness EQUAL TO THE PEOPLE WE BLAME AND JUDGE.

Unfortunately I cannot change this for people.
They have to choose to forgive, just like I had to choose to forgive
and let go of all the HORRIBLE UNFORGIVEABLE ABUSES that
had me in a total state of RAGE that I suffered because of
OTHER PEOPLE's BS!

I was FURIOUS that I had TRIED to act in earnest and accommodate
other people, but they did all kinds of things behind my back and didn't
tell me in advance, so all my decisions had been badly compromised,
and I had take the blame and hit for decisions I thought I had done right.

ding I had to forgive all that, before I could let it all go and start
over WITH A FRESH MIND and not carry any of that with me.

When people do this, we don't see things the same way with the
same biases, but DOORS open up where we can see the future
solutions and solve problems by taking steps WITHOUT the
emotional baggage and BLAME blocking and biasing our perceptions.

The SAME PROBLEMS and CONFLICTS still exist, but we don't
push to "force others" to change, we take the approach of changing
things together, where if we want something to change, we change
our perception and approach or way of communicating to accommodate
the other person so they reciprocate and together we change the situation.

ding if you want to communicate YOUR point #3 above to RWS
what would you change about your approach that would be the
EQUIVALENT of RWS letting go to the same degree to change his approach?

With me, I realized he doesn't use the words Religion as neutral terms like I do.
I realized he kept questioning me as going through the process HE went through
which is his only understanding of the DIFFERENCE between before and after.
He KNOWS there is something HORRIBLY WRONG with how religions are taught
where this causes mass killings and unexplicable war/genocide he can only see
is tied to justification from some faith in God gone wrong. So his solutions is
to RENOUNCE this whole religion thing to get away from whatever causes that!

That's okay, I changed my approach to let's talk about this without defending
either Religion or how people use it. Let's not use those terms and lets talk
about our PROCESS of how did I come to MY beliefs, and compare with how
did RWS come to where he is right now. Why we both believe as we do.

Let's talk about that and see if we can figure out HOW TO TALK ABOUT
the PROBLEMS OF DEADLY ABUSE AND OPPRESSION we are both opposed to.

ding even if we never agree on common language, I can just adjust to
RWS terms for these things, even if he uses "Religion" and "Ethics" differently
where I don't think that's universal SO WHAT.
When I am talking with RWS it doesn't matter if he calls God "Dog" or calls
Antichrist "Crusades" - whatever he means and calls things by, I decided
to go ahead and use HIS language so we can at least GET THROUGH THE
CONVERSATION WITHOUT ARGUING OVER THE MIXED TERMS.

I don't use "Religion" and "Ethics" the way RWS does or needs to.

So to speak with someone like RWS coming from this dialect
I switch over to THEIR language and quit using terms that don't
mean the same thing under both his system and mine. There are
too many controversial "associations" attached to "religion" to use it.

So that's the big change I am offering to get somewhere in this discussion.

What is the equivalent on your side ding If you want RWS to meet
you halfway, it helps if you make the first move and show you are
willing to stretch and give up part of your approach to work with him.

I can't use the word "religion" at all with RWS or we go in circles
arguing about it. So I offer to drop that term and let's talk without that.

So you believe RWS is grieving? I sort of think he’s just trolling. But I’ll give it a try.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear Taz
That's not synonymous or universal with Muslim teachings.

That's just ONE sect, the SALAFI that is dangerous
and leads to JIHADISM which is worshipping WAR based on FEAR
(not God based on love).

* JIHADISTS, SALAFI and terrorist/oppressive ISLAMIST regimes
are the EQUIVALENT of the OPPRESSIVE sects in Jewish/Christian EXTREMISTS called
* ZIONISTS and "Post Millennial Dispensalists"
that are dangerous cults worshipping ARMAGEDDON
as the OPPOSITE of true Christianity which means CHARITY.

Both of these become MILITANT POLITICAL RELIGIONS.
They are not universal but extreme cults that wage war
by taking justice into their own hands in violation of civil authority.

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

So your saying that Islam is a force for good? The head chopping for Allah and all the rest?

PS True Islamic and Christian teachings
both call for believers to follow the Bible
which includes CIVIL OBEDIENCE to
civil laws and authority including Constitutional
principles that are universal to both Christians and Muslims.

NOTE: the Jihadist do NOT respect separation of powers
but mix "church with state" and mix "judge, jury and executioner"
without any DUE PROCESS or checks and balances.

That's the difference.

The true Christians and Muslims respect Constitutional laws
BARRING religion from mixing with govt, so they avoid politics.
That's how you can tell the true followers.
They don't impose on others politically because
they don't want others imposing on them either.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear ding If RWS is as resistant to changing how he sees religion as negative
as you are resistant to how you see religion as offering more positives,
then where is this coming from? What fear or unforgiven issue is blocking that?

If RWS still blames Religion/Christianity for Crusades and killing/rape in the name of the Cross,
where is that bias coming from?

Is it from not yet forgiving parents for Catholic indoctrination? Or not forgiving
whatever institution indoctrinated parents?

Are you saying RWS is in denial or reflection and doesn't know anything else needs to change?

[PS as for you and me in this same process, do you still react to nontheists, atheists, agnostic who don't understand God and express denial and rejection. Where is that coming from? Is there some general thing "not forgiven" between these two groups causing that mutual obstruction - if so, I have a nontheist friend who wanted to work on this problem of theists and nontheists not being so belligerent and hostile but be able to communicate on common terms. With me, I have biases when it comes to liberals not understanding Constitutional principles. I have better success arguing to defend these among Christians, Constitutionalists and Conservatives who basically want to correct and enforce policies properly by common standards. I don't think I have this issue with RWS.]

So you believe RWS is grieving? I sort of think he’s just trolling. But I’ll give it a try.

Here is the grief model we call the 7 Stages of Grief:

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
   You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
2. PAIN & GUILT-
   As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
   
   You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
   Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
   
   You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
   Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
   
   During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
   
   More 7 stages of grief...
5. THE UPWARD TURN-
   As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
   As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
   During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
   
   You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.

7 STAGES OF GRIEF

 

[ding]

Dear ding If RWS is as resistant to changing how he sees religion as negative
as you are resistant to how you see religion as offering more positives,
then where is this coming from? What fear or unforgiven issue is blocking that?

If RWS still blames Religion/Christianity for Crusades and killing/rape in the name of the Cross,
where is that bias coming from?

Is it from not yet forgiving parents for Catholic indoctrination? Or not forgiving
whatever institution indoctrinated parents?

Are you saying RWS is in denial or reflection and doesn't know anything else needs to change?

[PS as for you and me in this same process, do you still react to nontheists, atheists, agnostic who don't understand God and express denial and rejection. Where is that coming from? Is there some general thing "not forgiven" between these two groups causing that mutual obstruction - if so, I have a nontheist friend who wanted to work on this problem of theists and nontheists not being so belligerent and hostile but be able to communicate on common terms. With me, I have biases when it comes to liberals not understanding Constitutional principles. I have better success arguing to defend these among Christians, Constitutionalists and Conservatives who basically want to correct and enforce policies properly by common standards. I don't think I have this issue with RWS.]

So you believe RWS is grieving? I sort of think he’s just trolling. But I’ll give it a try.

Here is the grief model we call the 7 Stages of Grief:

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
   You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
2. PAIN & GUILT-
   As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
   
   You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
   Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
   
   You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
   Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
   
   During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
   
   More 7 stages of grief...
5. THE UPWARD TURN-
   As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
   As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
   During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
   
   You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.

7 STAGES OF GRIEF

M, religion is nothing more than a tool. Tools aren’t good are evil in and of themselves. Tools just are. Tools can be used for good or evil.

By any objective measure the tool of religion has been used for good. The key to that statement is objectivity.

 

[emilynghiem]

Dear ding If RWS is as resistant to changing how he sees religion as negative
as you are resistant to how you see religion as offering more positives,
then where is this coming from? What fear or unforgiven issue is blocking that?

If RWS still blames Religion/Christianity for Crusades and killing/rape in the name of the Cross,
where is that bias coming from?

Is it from not yet forgiving parents for Catholic indoctrination? Or not forgiving
whatever institution indoctrinated parents?

Are you saying RWS is in denial or reflection and doesn't know anything else needs to change?

[PS as for you and me in this same process, do you still react to nontheists, atheists, agnostic who don't understand God and express denial and rejection. Where is that coming from? Is there some general thing "not forgiven" between these two groups causing that mutual obstruction - if so, I have a nontheist friend who wanted to work on this problem of theists and nontheists not being so belligerent and hostile but be able to communicate on common terms. With me, I have biases when it comes to liberals not understanding Constitutional principles. I have better success arguing to defend these among Christians, Constitutionalists and Conservatives who basically want to correct and enforce policies properly by common standards. I don't think I have this issue with RWS.]

So you believe RWS is grieving? I sort of think he’s just trolling. But I’ll give it a try.

Here is the grief model we call the 7 Stages of Grief:

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
   You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.
2. PAIN & GUILT-
   As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.
   
   You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.
3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
   Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.
   
   You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")
4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
   Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.
   
   During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.
   
   More 7 stages of grief...
5. THE UPWARD TURN-
   As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.
6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
   As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.
7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
   During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.
   
   You will start to look forward and actually plan things for the future. Eventually, you will be able to think about your lost loved one without pain; sadness, yes, but the wrenching pain will be gone. You will once again anticipate some good times to come, and yes, even find joy again in the experience of living.

7 STAGES OF GRIEF

M, religion is nothing more than a tool. Tools aren’t good are evil in and of themselves. Tools just are. Tools can be used for good or evil.

By any objective measure the tool of religion has been used for good. The key to that statement is objectivity.

Okay ding so you and I both see and use "religion" to be neutral
and see both the good and the bad.

Why doesn't RWS trust that you and I are objective and acknowledging the bad abuses
when we talk about religions?

Is it because of fear these are "too easily abused" WITHOUT ability to check and correct using reason,
that the bad somehow outweighs the good?

I still think the key is to start with the TERMS RWS uses for ethics
and how these can be enforced universally.

Start THERE and take THAT approach/language and principles
THEN after we agree on what RWS trusts to be solid ETHICS
apply that to "religious abuses" and agree how to go about correcting
what is wrong with religions. But we can't start backwards or start
with the very system that RWS doesn't relate to as corrupt.

Since RWS is atheist, I assume the natural law approach to ETHICS
is going to lend common language. Can we start there, and make sure
we are using common terms that mean the same thing to each other.

Whatever this "religion" thing means, before we untangle whatever
associations get crossed, I think we need to agree on standard
VARIABLES or terms to talk about the basic principles and process first.

Then apply that process to whatever conflicts over "religion" we were originally discussing.
How's that?

 

[Taz]

Dear Taz
That's not synonymous or universal with Muslim teachings.

That's just ONE sect, the SALAFI that is dangerous
and leads to JIHADISM which is worshipping WAR based on FEAR
(not God based on love).

* JIHADISTS, SALAFI and terrorist/oppressive ISLAMIST regimes
are the EQUIVALENT of the OPPRESSIVE sects in Jewish/Christian EXTREMISTS called
* ZIONISTS and "Post Millennial Dispensalists"
that are dangerous cults worshipping ARMAGEDDON
as the OPPOSITE of true Christianity which means CHARITY.

Both of these become MILITANT POLITICAL RELIGIONS.
They are not universal but extreme cults that wage war
by taking justice into their own hands in violation of civil authority.

It's evil, it's mideivel, but it's still evil

You follow a god, that kills everyone that disagrees. Everyone. No mercy. Sine missione.

I'm good with faith.

"When all is said and done, we are in the end absolutely dependent on the universe; and into sacrifices and surrenders of some sort, deliberately looked at and accepted, we are drawn and pressed as into our only permanent positions of repose. Now in those states of mind which fall short of religion, the surrender is submitted to as an imposition of necessity, and the sacrifice is undergone at the very best without complaint. In the religious life, on the contrary, surrender and sacrifice are positively espoused: even unnecessary givings-up are added in order that the happiness may increase. Religion thus makes easy and felicitous what in any case is necessary; and if it be the only agency that can accomplish this result, its vital importance as a human faculty stands vindicated beyond dispute. It becomes an essential organ of our life, performing a function which no other portion of our nature can so successfully fulfill." William James

Justification for murder? On the words of God?

Justification for why religion is a force for good.

So your saying that Islam is a force for good? The head chopping for Allah and all the rest?

PS True Islamic and Christian teachings
both call for believers to follow the Bible
which includes CIVIL OBEDIENCE to
civil laws and authority including Constitutional
principles that are universal to both Christians and Muslims.

NOTE: the Jihadist do NOT respect separation of powers
but mix "church with state" and mix "judge, jury and executioner"
without any DUE PROCESS or checks and balances.

That's the difference.

The true Christians and Muslims respect Constitutional laws
BARRING religion from mixing with govt, so they avoid politics.
That's how you can tell the true followers.
They don't impose on others politically because
they don't want others imposing on them either.

Too long, didn't read. Better luck next time.

 

[emilynghiem]

Too long, didn't read. Better luck next time.

Shorter version Taz:

Jihadists are a SALAFI cult and POLITICAL REGIME.
Not universal for all Muslims obeying Civil Authority.