Religion and Ethics

[BlackSand]

In my opinion:
"Faith is not determined by reason or sight." -- Agreed!
But no, it's not like knowing. It's like "belief." That thing we atheists admit to lacking, right upfront. Simply having faith doesn't cut it for us. Not just in reference to gods or religions either. It's real life. Deciding upon who to trust as one's plumber, mechanic, child's school teacher, doctor, partner,.. can only prove a wise, happy choice for one given sufficient time and experience.

If say, one's mechanic seems too good to be true at first, they likely are. Given two or three consecutive satisfactory transactions one may reasonably begin to relax a bit. As favorable evidence builds trust begins proving warranted. Besides being human nature, it behooves us to trust others to some extent initially -- to lend them some benefit of the doubt. But then we must question, research, test, and verify depending on the situation, else forever just be suckered. If every problem just looks like another pill prescription to one's family practitioner, then it's time one found a real doctor.

.
I don't mean to be too esoteric, but ...

It is only when you Surrender to God, that His Blessings become apparent.
God's Grace is unmerited favor, so any attempt to justify it would be fruitless ... Essentially, we don't deserve it.

Amazing Grace is the moment one realizes what they are looking at, and sees a part of God in everything,
from the material (a tree) to the immaterial (a choice).

He is there, with or without our understanding.

.​

 

[Grumblenuts]

What about words in a book?
If I wrote a book, would that give evidence that I exist?

"What about"
Say I wrote a book and called it "The Bible." Would I then be a god in your opinion?

 

[Ziggy]

No really, it is a serious question.
And one that I don't mean to take lightly.

I'll tell you why I believe.
I been in some pretty interesting predicaments in my life, same as many have.
One day I was driving my car to work on I-90 in Massachusetts. Going under the tunnels of the city of Boston.
I was in the center lane and my car died. not putter putter poof. nope.. Boom dead.
I looked up in the rear view mirror. There was an 18 wheeler inches from my rear bumper.
I closed my eyes. I didn't have time to think about anything except the face of my daughter passed b4 my eyes.
I opened my eyes and that 14 wheeler was inches from my front bumper and moving right along like I wasn't even there to slow him down for a second.
The police came and ushered me over to the breakdown lane.
How?

Riding on the back of a motorcycle going across I-95 Bridge. Far left lane against the railing.
Two cars up brake lights, truck on my right, truck on my rear. Never switched lanes.
Should have been crushed.

Old boyfriend cocaine addict. Decides I need to check out getting high by injection.
Needle don't work.
Works for him.. he ends up in the hospital. Not me.
I ran back home asap.

Vomiting for over 24 hours straight. I can't catch my breath. I have no strength.
Sitting on the toilet. God.. if it's time for me to go.. do it now. I can't do this.
15 minutes later all symptoms gone.

Then comes this Peaceful feeling, not anxious, not heavy.
A sense of calmness, a knowing, that somewhere out there someone or something is watching over me.

It's been 40 years since I-90.
Been 10 years since I asked to leave.
Why am I here?
What is my purpose?

If I can make a positive difference in this world... maybe that's all I'm meant to do.
I don't know. I'm not dead yet. And it looks like there may be more for me to do.
Do for who? What difference does it make if I am good or bad, nice or mean, lift you up or put you down?
Something inside that wasn't there before tells me I have work to do.
And it's not a 9-5 job either.
It's a reaching out to others. A desire to share my thoughts, my testimony, that this isn't all there is.
There's so much more.
And everyday is good, even if it's hard or sad or painful, it's still good.

I don't know how else to say why I believe the way I do.
I just thought I'd share.
I know you could probably find rational reasons for these things. I've only mentioned a few. There is so much more.
But I believe I'm here for a reason. And that reason has to come from somewhere.
And I found a book that explains where that reason comes from.
And that's why I stand where I stand.

I hope this helps
Sincerely
Hugs

 

[BULLDOG]

In my opinion:
"Faith is not determined by reason or sight." -- Agreed!
But no, it's not like knowing. It's like "belief." That thing we atheists admit to lacking, right upfront. Simply having faith doesn't cut it for us. Not just in reference to gods or religions either. It's real life. Deciding upon who to trust as one's plumber, mechanic, child's school teacher, doctor, partner,.. can only prove a wise, happy choice for one given sufficient time and experience.

If say, one's mechanic seems too good to be true at first, they likely are. Given two or three consecutive satisfactory transactions one may reasonably begin to relax a bit. As favorable evidence builds trust begins proving warranted. Besides being human nature, it behooves us to trust others to some extent initially -- to lend them some benefit of the doubt. But then we must question, research, test, and verify depending on the situation, else forever just be suckered. If every problem just looks like another pill prescription to one's family practitioner, then it's time one found a real doctor.

.
I don't mean to be too esoteric, but ...

It is only when you Surrender to God, that His Blessings become apparent.
God's Grace is unmerited favor, so any attempt to justify it would be fruitless ... Essentially, we don't deserve it.

Amazing Grace is the moment one realizes what they are looking at, and sees a part of God in everything,
from the material (a tree) to the immaterial (a choice).

He is there, with or without our understanding.

.​

That's not esoteric. The concept you describe is not hard to understand at all. It's just impossible for a sane person to accept. Most would consider it to be just nuts.

 

[BULLDOG]

No really, it is a serious question.
And one that I don't mean to take lightly.

I'll tell you why I believe.
I been in some pretty interesting predicaments in my life, same as many have.
One day I was driving my car to work on I-90 in Massachusetts. Going under the tunnels of the city of Boston.
I was in the center lane and my car died. not putter putter poof. nope.. Boom dead.
I looked up in the rear view mirror. There was an 18 wheeler inches from my rear bumper.
I closed my eyes. I didn't have time to think about anything except the face of my daughter passed b4 my eyes.
I opened my eyes and that 14 wheeler was inches from my front bumper and moving right along like I wasn't even there to slow him down for a second.
The police came and ushered me over to the breakdown lane.
How?

Riding on the back of a motorcycle going across I-95 Bridge. Far left lane against the railing.
Two cars up brake lights, truck on my right, truck on my rear. Never switched lanes.
Should have been crushed.

Old boyfriend cocaine addict. Decides I need to check out getting high by injection.
Needle don't work.
Works for him.. he ends up in the hospital. Not me.
I ran back home asap.

Vomiting for over 24 hours straight. I can't catch my breath. I have no strength.
Sitting on the toilet. God.. if it's time for me to go.. do it now. I can't do this.
15 minutes later all symptoms gone.

Then comes this Peaceful feeling, not anxious, not heavy.
A sense of calmness, a knowing, that somewhere out there someone or something is watching over me.

It's been 40 years since I-90.
Been 10 years since I asked to leave.
Why am I here?
What is my purpose?

If I can make a positive difference in this world... maybe that's all I'm meant to do.
I don't know. I'm not dead yet. And it looks like there may be more for me to do.
Do for who? What difference does it make if I am good or bad, nice or mean, lift you up or put you down?
Something inside that wasn't there before tells me I have work to do.
And it's not a 9-5 job either.
It's a reaching out to others. A desire to share my thoughts, my testimony, that this isn't all there is.
There's so much more.
And everyday is good, even if it's hard or sad or painful, it's still good.

I don't know how else to say why I believe the way I do.
I just thought I'd share.
I know you could probably find rational reasons for these things. I've only mentioned a few. There is so much more.
But I believe I'm here for a reason. And that reason has to come from somewhere.
And I found a book that explains where that reason comes from.
And that's why I stand where I stand.

I hope this helps
Sincerely
Hugs

I've had close calls too. Most people have. If your close calls caused you to reevaluate your behavior and try to do better, that's great, but it's not miraculous, and it's certainly not proof of god.

 

[Ziggy]

What about words in a book?
If I wrote a book, would that give evidence that I exist?

"What about"
Say I wrote a book and called it "The Bible." Would I then be a god in your opinion?

If you were not able to hold the pen in your hand, and you hired someone to write the book for you.
And those things written in that book was written through many different people over thousands of years.
And the theme of your book never changed from writer to writer.
And the things you had them write in your book actually happened as you said they would in times to come.
And no one else could know these things except for you?

I would probably still question the authenticity of it.
Maybe not the one narrating but the ones writing.

The words that are written they don't make a contact with my spirit, so much as what flows behind the written words.

Oh that sounds so gooblygook, but I don't know the words to express it.
I know that what is written is true. I don't know how I know. I just do.

Hugs

 

[Grumblenuts]

No really, it is a serious question.
And one that I don't mean to take lightly.

I'll tell you why I believe.
I been in some pretty interesting predicaments in my life, same as many have.
One day I was driving my car to work on I-90 in Massachusetts. Going under the tunnels of the city of Boston.
I was in the center lane and my car died. not putter putter poof. nope.. Boom dead.
I looked up in the rear view mirror. There was an 18 wheeler inches from my rear bumper.
I closed my eyes. I didn't have time to think about anything except the face of my daughter passed b4 my eyes.
I opened my eyes and that 14 wheeler was inches from my front bumper and moving right along like I wasn't even there to slow him down for a second.
The police came and ushered me over to the breakdown lane.
How?

Riding on the back of a motorcycle going across I-95 Bridge. Far left lane against the railing.
Two cars up brake lights, truck on my right, truck on my rear. Never switched lanes.
Should have been crushed.

Old boyfriend cocaine addict. Decides I need to check out getting high by injection.
Needle don't work.
Works for him.. he ends up in the hospital. Not me.
I ran back home asap.

Vomiting for over 24 hours straight. I can't catch my breath. I have no strength.
Sitting on the toilet. God.. if it's time for me to go.. do it now. I can't do this.
15 minutes later all symptoms gone.

Then comes this Peaceful feeling, not anxious, not heavy.
A sense of calmness, a knowing, that somewhere out there someone or something is watching over me.

It's been 40 years since I-90.
Been 10 years since I asked to leave.
Why am I here?
What is my purpose?

If I can make a positive difference in this world... maybe that's all I'm meant to do.
I don't know. I'm not dead yet. And it looks like there may be more for me to do.
Do for who? What difference does it make if I am good or bad, nice or mean, lift you up or put you down?
Something inside that wasn't there before tells me I have work to do.
And it's not a 9-5 job either.
It's a reaching out to others. A desire to share my thoughts, my testimony, that this isn't all there is.
There's so much more.
And everyday is good, even if it's hard or sad or painful, it's still good.

I don't know how else to say why I believe the way I do.
I just thought I'd share.
I know you could probably find rational reasons for these things. I've only mentioned a few. There is so much more.
But I believe I'm here for a reason. And that reason has to come from somewhere.
And I found a book that explains where that reason comes from.
And that's why I stand where I stand.

I hope this helps
Sincerely
Hugs

I think most of us experience multiple near death experiences given we live long enough. But, yeah, we each need our own reasons to remain inspired and marching. Understood. I build and repair everything I possibly can. Aside from my family, that's what gets me out of bed in the morning.

 

[BlackSand]

That's not esoteric. The concept you describe is not hard to understand at all. It's just impossible for a sane person to accept. Most would consider it to be just nuts.

.

Of course some people would consider it to be insane ...
But then again, they don't know God, haven't found His Grace, and don't have clue what they are talking about ...

You are simply nuts if you think you can argue something you clearly don't understand.

.

.​

 

[BULLDOG]

That's not esoteric. The concept you describe is not hard to understand at all. It's just impossible for a sane person to accept. Most would consider it to be just nuts.

.

Of course some people would consider it to be insane ...
But then again, they don't know God, haven't found His Grace, and don't have clue what they are talking about ...

.

.​

 

[BlackSand]

That's not esoteric. The concept you describe is not hard to understand at all. It's just impossible for a sane person to accept. Most would consider it to be just nuts.

.

Of course some people would consider it to be insane ...
But then again, they don't know God, haven't found His Grace, and don't have clue what they are talking about ...

.

.​

.

.​

 

[Ziggy]

No really, it is a serious question.
And one that I don't mean to take lightly.

I'll tell you why I believe.
I been in some pretty interesting predicaments in my life, same as many have.
One day I was driving my car to work on I-90 in Massachusetts. Going under the tunnels of the city of Boston.
I was in the center lane and my car died. not putter putter poof. nope.. Boom dead.
I looked up in the rear view mirror. There was an 18 wheeler inches from my rear bumper.
I closed my eyes. I didn't have time to think about anything except the face of my daughter passed b4 my eyes.
I opened my eyes and that 14 wheeler was inches from my front bumper and moving right along like I wasn't even there to slow him down for a second.
The police came and ushered me over to the breakdown lane.
How?

Riding on the back of a motorcycle going across I-95 Bridge. Far left lane against the railing.
Two cars up brake lights, truck on my right, truck on my rear. Never switched lanes.
Should have been crushed.

Old boyfriend cocaine addict. Decides I need to check out getting high by injection.
Needle don't work.
Works for him.. he ends up in the hospital. Not me.
I ran back home asap.

Vomiting for over 24 hours straight. I can't catch my breath. I have no strength.
Sitting on the toilet. God.. if it's time for me to go.. do it now. I can't do this.
15 minutes later all symptoms gone.

Then comes this Peaceful feeling, not anxious, not heavy.
A sense of calmness, a knowing, that somewhere out there someone or something is watching over me.

It's been 40 years since I-90.
Been 10 years since I asked to leave.
Why am I here?
What is my purpose?

If I can make a positive difference in this world... maybe that's all I'm meant to do.
I don't know. I'm not dead yet. And it looks like there may be more for me to do.
Do for who? What difference does it make if I am good or bad, nice or mean, lift you up or put you down?
Something inside that wasn't there before tells me I have work to do.
And it's not a 9-5 job either.
It's a reaching out to others. A desire to share my thoughts, my testimony, that this isn't all there is.
There's so much more.
And everyday is good, even if it's hard or sad or painful, it's still good.

I don't know how else to say why I believe the way I do.
I just thought I'd share.
I know you could probably find rational reasons for these things. I've only mentioned a few. There is so much more.
But I believe I'm here for a reason. And that reason has to come from somewhere.
And I found a book that explains where that reason comes from.
And that's why I stand where I stand.

I hope this helps
Sincerely
Hugs

I've had close calls too. Most people have. If your close calls caused you to reevaluate your behavior and try to do better, that's great, but it's not miraculous, and it's certainly not proof of god.

I guess my proof is that I'm still here against a lot of odds.
But it's bigger than that.
I know there is something beyond here and now.
Others who have come before have told their stories about their testimonies and what happened to them.
Everyone has their own unique experiences for believing or not.
Sometimes the hardest thing to understand or what creates a barrier to faith is..
How can God let bad things happen?
That question alone can make many question whether there really is a God.
And I can understand that. We don't have all the answers. Sometimes people are able to "trust" that what has happened has meaning. And we can't see the future. We can't tell if something that happens today isn't in the best interest of what might have been tomorrow.
And I guess that is where Hope comes in.
But where does Hope come from?
If there were no hope......

what then?
Misery, depression, horror...

Hope has a purpose. Where does that purpose come from? Where did hope originate?
So many questions.
So little time to learn all the answers.. and sometimes things are meant to remain a mystery, until it is revealed.

Revealed by what? revealed by whom? For what purpose? Who's purpose?

Faith keeps me looking for those answers. Even though I know the answers exist, I just haven't found them yet,
And I believe those answers lie with what we call God.

Am I making any sense?
Thank You
Hugs

 

[Grumblenuts]

I don't mean to be too esoteric, but ...

It is only when you Surrender to God, that His Blessings become apparent.
God's Grace is unmerited favor, so any attempt to justify it would be fruitless ... Essentially, we don't deserve it.

Amazing Grace is the moment one realizes what they are looking at, and sees a part of God in everything,
from the material (a tree) to the immaterial (a choice).

He is there, with or without our understanding.

I hear you. Can you appreciate that many of us have been hearing much the same, unsolicited, thousands of times, our entire lives? That we heard it perfectly well the first time? That it's not suddenly going to gel this time or something? We disagree is all. And that's fine. To each their own. Live and let live.

 

[BlackSand]

I hear you. Can you appreciate that many of us have been hearing much the same, unsolicited, thousands of times, our entire lives? That we heard it perfectly well the first time? That it's not suddenly going to gel this time or something? We disagree is all. And that's fine. To each their own. Live and let live.

.

Man, I hear you ... I was raised in the Church for 18 years, and it never took.
Then I was a soldier, and got to a point I needed God or I was going to be lost to the Abyss forever,
dead or alive, so I listened to Him.

Just keep your eye out ... I cannot tell what God wants you to do, because I don't know what it is.
He'll tell you, or you may find His Grace another way.

Perhaps when you hear it unsolicited, He is just trying to speak to you, and you aren't ready to listen yet.
In any case, rest assured that I am neither Righteous nor Divine, and my judgement is not His Judgement.

.​

 

[Ziggy]

I don't mean to be too esoteric, but ...

It is only when you Surrender to God, that His Blessings become apparent.
God's Grace is unmerited favor, so any attempt to justify it would be fruitless ... Essentially, we don't deserve it.

Amazing Grace is the moment one realizes what they are looking at, and sees a part of God in everything,
from the material (a tree) to the immaterial (a choice).

He is there, with or without our understanding.

I hear you. Can you appreciate that many of us have been hearing much the same, unsolicited, thousands of times, our entire lives? That we heard it perfectly well the first time? That it's not suddenly going to gel this time or something? We disagree is all. And that's fine. To each their own. Live and let live.

I wish a lot of other people were as reasonable.
I'm not a bible thumper. But I do tend to talk from the heart.
And I believe that people have a right to believe whatever they want to believe.
But if I am asked then I will share my thoughts.
Thank you all for this very thoughtful conversation.

Hugs

 

[BULLDOG]

No really, it is a serious question.
And one that I don't mean to take lightly.

I'll tell you why I believe.
I been in some pretty interesting predicaments in my life, same as many have.
One day I was driving my car to work on I-90 in Massachusetts. Going under the tunnels of the city of Boston.
I was in the center lane and my car died. not putter putter poof. nope.. Boom dead.
I looked up in the rear view mirror. There was an 18 wheeler inches from my rear bumper.
I closed my eyes. I didn't have time to think about anything except the face of my daughter passed b4 my eyes.
I opened my eyes and that 14 wheeler was inches from my front bumper and moving right along like I wasn't even there to slow him down for a second.
The police came and ushered me over to the breakdown lane.
How?

Riding on the back of a motorcycle going across I-95 Bridge. Far left lane against the railing.
Two cars up brake lights, truck on my right, truck on my rear. Never switched lanes.
Should have been crushed.

Old boyfriend cocaine addict. Decides I need to check out getting high by injection.
Needle don't work.
Works for him.. he ends up in the hospital. Not me.
I ran back home asap.

Vomiting for over 24 hours straight. I can't catch my breath. I have no strength.
Sitting on the toilet. God.. if it's time for me to go.. do it now. I can't do this.
15 minutes later all symptoms gone.

Then comes this Peaceful feeling, not anxious, not heavy.
A sense of calmness, a knowing, that somewhere out there someone or something is watching over me.

It's been 40 years since I-90.
Been 10 years since I asked to leave.
Why am I here?
What is my purpose?

If I can make a positive difference in this world... maybe that's all I'm meant to do.
I don't know. I'm not dead yet. And it looks like there may be more for me to do.
Do for who? What difference does it make if I am good or bad, nice or mean, lift you up or put you down?
Something inside that wasn't there before tells me I have work to do.
And it's not a 9-5 job either.
It's a reaching out to others. A desire to share my thoughts, my testimony, that this isn't all there is.
There's so much more.
And everyday is good, even if it's hard or sad or painful, it's still good.

I don't know how else to say why I believe the way I do.
I just thought I'd share.
I know you could probably find rational reasons for these things. I've only mentioned a few. There is so much more.
But I believe I'm here for a reason. And that reason has to come from somewhere.
And I found a book that explains where that reason comes from.
And that's why I stand where I stand.

I hope this helps
Sincerely
Hugs

I've had close calls too. Most people have. If your close calls caused you to reevaluate your behavior and try to do better, that's great, but it's not miraculous, and it's certainly not proof of god.

I guess my proof is that I'm still here against a lot of odds.
But it's bigger than that.
I know there is something beyond here and now.
Others who have come before have told their stories about their testimonies and what happened to them.
Everyone has their own unique experiences for believing or not.
Sometimes the hardest thing to understand or what creates a barrier to faith is..
How can God let bad things happen?
That question alone can make many question whether there really is a God.
And I can understand that. We don't have all the answers. Sometimes people are able to "trust" that what has happened has meaning. And we can't see the future. We can't tell if something that happens today isn't in the best interest of what might have been tomorrow.
And I guess that is where Hope comes in.
But where does Hope come from?
If there were no hope......

what then?
Misery, depression, horror...

Hope has a purpose. Where does that purpose come from? Where did hope originate?
So many questions.
So little time to learn all the answers.. and sometimes things are meant to remain a mystery, until it is revealed.

Revealed by what? revealed by whom? For what purpose? Who's purpose?

Faith keeps me looking for those answers. Even though I know the answers exist, I just haven't found them yet,
And I believe those answers lie with what we call God.

Am I making any sense?
Thank You
Hugs

Hope isn't limited to religious people, and man has always looked for answers.

 

[BlackSand]

Hope isn't limited to religious people, and man has always looked for answers.

.

Which in no way diminishes the Hope some have found, in the answers they already have.

.​

 

[Ziggy]

No really, it is a serious question.
And one that I don't mean to take lightly.

I'll tell you why I believe.
I been in some pretty interesting predicaments in my life, same as many have.
One day I was driving my car to work on I-90 in Massachusetts. Going under the tunnels of the city of Boston.
I was in the center lane and my car died. not putter putter poof. nope.. Boom dead.
I looked up in the rear view mirror. There was an 18 wheeler inches from my rear bumper.
I closed my eyes. I didn't have time to think about anything except the face of my daughter passed b4 my eyes.
I opened my eyes and that 14 wheeler was inches from my front bumper and moving right along like I wasn't even there to slow him down for a second.
The police came and ushered me over to the breakdown lane.
How?

Riding on the back of a motorcycle going across I-95 Bridge. Far left lane against the railing.
Two cars up brake lights, truck on my right, truck on my rear. Never switched lanes.
Should have been crushed.

Old boyfriend cocaine addict. Decides I need to check out getting high by injection.
Needle don't work.
Works for him.. he ends up in the hospital. Not me.
I ran back home asap.

Vomiting for over 24 hours straight. I can't catch my breath. I have no strength.
Sitting on the toilet. God.. if it's time for me to go.. do it now. I can't do this.
15 minutes later all symptoms gone.

Then comes this Peaceful feeling, not anxious, not heavy.
A sense of calmness, a knowing, that somewhere out there someone or something is watching over me.

It's been 40 years since I-90.
Been 10 years since I asked to leave.
Why am I here?
What is my purpose?

If I can make a positive difference in this world... maybe that's all I'm meant to do.
I don't know. I'm not dead yet. And it looks like there may be more for me to do.
Do for who? What difference does it make if I am good or bad, nice or mean, lift you up or put you down?
Something inside that wasn't there before tells me I have work to do.
And it's not a 9-5 job either.
It's a reaching out to others. A desire to share my thoughts, my testimony, that this isn't all there is.
There's so much more.
And everyday is good, even if it's hard or sad or painful, it's still good.

I don't know how else to say why I believe the way I do.
I just thought I'd share.
I know you could probably find rational reasons for these things. I've only mentioned a few. There is so much more.
But I believe I'm here for a reason. And that reason has to come from somewhere.
And I found a book that explains where that reason comes from.
And that's why I stand where I stand.

I hope this helps
Sincerely
Hugs

I've had close calls too. Most people have. If your close calls caused you to reevaluate your behavior and try to do better, that's great, but it's not miraculous, and it's certainly not proof of god.

I guess my proof is that I'm still here against a lot of odds.
But it's bigger than that.
I know there is something beyond here and now.
Others who have come before have told their stories about their testimonies and what happened to them.
Everyone has their own unique experiences for believing or not.
Sometimes the hardest thing to understand or what creates a barrier to faith is..
How can God let bad things happen?
That question alone can make many question whether there really is a God.
And I can understand that. We don't have all the answers. Sometimes people are able to "trust" that what has happened has meaning. And we can't see the future. We can't tell if something that happens today isn't in the best interest of what might have been tomorrow.
And I guess that is where Hope comes in.
But where does Hope come from?
If there were no hope......

what then?
Misery, depression, horror...

Hope has a purpose. Where does that purpose come from? Where did hope originate?
So many questions.
So little time to learn all the answers.. and sometimes things are meant to remain a mystery, until it is revealed.

Revealed by what? revealed by whom? For what purpose? Who's purpose?

Faith keeps me looking for those answers. Even though I know the answers exist, I just haven't found them yet,
And I believe those answers lie with what we call God.

Am I making any sense?
Thank You
Hugs

Hope isn't limited to religious people, and man has always looked for answers.

I'm not arguing with ya bro..
If you ever have a chnage of heart or questions. Don't hesitate to ask, I'll be right here.

HUGS

 

[emilynghiem]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

^ Death Angel makes a fair point here
It can be just as insulting and challenging when Atheists make personal remarks against Christian Theists for their beliefs

The difference is:
Christians are expected to practice forgiveness, so when that fails, they could be attacked as hypocrites or encouraged to forgive. Christians should help each other to forgive. But atheists seeking to exploit this flaw will goad and bait them to try proving them failures.

Atheists are expected to prove their positions on facts not faith.
That argument goes equally in circles since neither existence or nonexistence of God can be provem or disproven.
So when Atheists fail at this, the same thing happens: either attack them and use this flaw to personally bait and troll.
Or try to be objective and help reason with this process: if both sides are faithbased, then why not focus on what will help reach agreement on the meanings or applications to real life that we agree are mutually beneficial and serve the best purpose?

If we agree the purpose of "seeking the Kingdom of God" means universal truth, let's seek that together, Atheist or Christian, despite our different language.

If we agree the meaning and message of Christ Jesus is Restorative Justice, let's look at the difference this approach makes by seeking Justice and Peace by MUTUAL Forgiveness and Correction by inclusion, instead of Judgment and Punishment for rejection.

BULLDOG if you would respond better by approaching this through Buddhist ethics, I believe a combination of that helps to check against abuses with Constitutional and Christian principles.

BlackSand I used to be a Moderator but had to stop due to juggling two jobs. I could go back and volunteer for the Religion and Ethics threads. Which looks like a 24/7 job in itself.

I may do better by staying as a regular member, and just mediating member to member to break up bullying fights.
Do we need a separate mediation ring to do that in? Or is it okay to do that in the middle of threads whenever a push comes to shove?

Is there a way to make a timeout rule or place, if two posters start butting heads personally, they go into timeout until they agree to stick to issues, or start a separate thread to work it out one on one before they post. If so I can volunteer to co-mediate with you to walk the two posters through a timeout like stopping a fight to make sure both are okay, and agree no more punching below the belt but what is your real issue, get it resolved, then you can go back in the ring.

Would it help to have a way to call Timeouts and walk the two headbutters through some understanding that will prevent that bullying in the future? Thanks!

Again, you show you don't even understand what makes an atheist. Very few are on a mission to prove there is no god. I have never once said there is no god. I have only said I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists. I would personally be thrilled if credible evidence of a god were produced. Don't expect me not to laugh and ridicule those who insist their feelings are proof of god.

Hi BULLDOG
I understand there is a mix of approaches or "denominations" of atheism. I find common differences such as:
1. NONtheism or secularist. Some believe in the same concepts that
God/Jesus stand for, such as truth or wisdom, justice, love, greatest good or ultimate benevolence for all humanity, creation/universe. But do not personify these as anthropomorphic figures or deities. Some do or do not equate their values with the same things Christians mean. But I use NONtheist to be Neutral, where it refers to secular terms for the same universal meanings.
2. Atheists can mean NOT believing there is a God/gods or believing there are NO such things as God/gods. Some people identify as Atheist but more agnostic. Some Atheists have no issues with Christians, others do. If they are not neutral as I use Nontheist for, then Atheist implies a bias against believing the neutral/secular terms are interchangeable with the Christian terms.
3. Anti-theists are opposed to Theists and Theism. This is like the politicized version of Atheism. Nontheism is the most neutral, where some people merely process ideas information and perceptions in the brain in secular terms.

From your response you seem to be neutral when people are neutral and openminded. But swing Atheist, not quite Antitheist as others can get, when people get religiously judgmental.

I think if you were not around jerks you would be nontheist and agnostic.

 

[emilynghiem]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

LOL. Theists divide themselves by asserting stuff like "The fact is, SOMEONE is right." Atheists just claim to disbelieve it all equally. Sorry some feel so insulted by that. Oh, you poor victims.

Not just that Grumblenuts
What BULLDOG and @DeathAngel
Both point out is the Personal Attacks
that cause Personal Insult.
When it gets Personal and off topic
then human beings on both sides can take this personally.

Both can be argued as conflicting with their own positions:
A. If Christians are forgiving where is the forgiveness?
B. If Atheists are objective, where is the objectivity?
Both appear to fail at their own claims.

We can either use this to bait and troll and test the forgiveness/objectivity of the Mods who have to clean up complaints.

Or we can focus on more constructive approaches that don't deadlock like this.

I objectively have never seen any reason to believe a god exists. If you ever present such evidence, I will join you in your belief. However, I doubt I would join you in your devotion to a god such as the one described in the bible. He seems to be a hateful and arbitrary being.

You are starting with a negative definition that doesn't apply to what people mean by God.

The better way I suggest is to start with a common meaning that does exist to you.

Then work backwards to question or prove that positive concept is the same thing that others mean by God.

For example, do you believe in any of these collective universal concepts:
Laws of Nature
Forces of Life
Good will for All
Collective Truth or Knowledge
Universal Wisdom
Or a commom source of Universal Justice that applies to all human beings

If you believe in Universal Human Rights
Or a common standard of ethics for human in general, that is like Natural Laws.

So whatever you believe these Universal values standards or laws come from, that is what God as the Author of Life, Laws the Universe stands for. The ultimate absolute in life and reality. Whatever is the default source of all things.

Whatever you call that, this is the equivalent of God in your system of looking at life and relations between you and the world and laws of nature and the universe.

 

[BULLDOG]

Believe what you want, but if you start claiming your god is the only source of all good things, it gets kinda insulting to those that don't share your devotion

The fact is, SOMEONE is right.

Atheists do EXACTLY the same thing, and you dont understand why WE would be insulted

^ Death Angel makes a fair point here
It can be just as insulting and challenging when Atheists make personal remarks against Christian Theists for their beliefs

The difference is:
Christians are expected to practice forgiveness, so when that fails, they could be attacked as hypocrites or encouraged to forgive. Christians should help each other to forgive. But atheists seeking to exploit this flaw will goad and bait them to try proving them failures.

Atheists are expected to prove their positions on facts not faith.
That argument goes equally in circles since neither existence or nonexistence of God can be provem or disproven.
So when Atheists fail at this, the same thing happens: either attack them and use this flaw to personally bait and troll.
Or try to be objective and help reason with this process: if both sides are faithbased, then why not focus on what will help reach agreement on the meanings or applications to real life that we agree are mutually beneficial and serve the best purpose?

If we agree the purpose of "seeking the Kingdom of God" means universal truth, let's seek that together, Atheist or Christian, despite our different language.

If we agree the meaning and message of Christ Jesus is Restorative Justice, let's look at the difference this approach makes by seeking Justice and Peace by MUTUAL Forgiveness and Correction by inclusion, instead of Judgment and Punishment for rejection.

BULLDOG if you would respond better by approaching this through Buddhist ethics, I believe a combination of that helps to check against abuses with Constitutional and Christian principles.

BlackSand I used to be a Moderator but had to stop due to juggling two jobs. I could go back and volunteer for the Religion and Ethics threads. Which looks like a 24/7 job in itself.

I may do better by staying as a regular member, and just mediating member to member to break up bullying fights.
Do we need a separate mediation ring to do that in? Or is it okay to do that in the middle of threads whenever a push comes to shove?

Is there a way to make a timeout rule or place, if two posters start butting heads personally, they go into timeout until they agree to stick to issues, or start a separate thread to work it out one on one before they post. If so I can volunteer to co-mediate with you to walk the two posters through a timeout like stopping a fight to make sure both are okay, and agree no more punching below the belt but what is your real issue, get it resolved, then you can go back in the ring.

Would it help to have a way to call Timeouts and walk the two headbutters through some understanding that will prevent that bullying in the future? Thanks!

Again, you show you don't even understand what makes an atheist. Very few are on a mission to prove there is no god. I have never once said there is no god. I have only said I have never seen any reason to believe a god exists. I would personally be thrilled if credible evidence of a god were produced. Don't expect me not to laugh and ridicule those who insist their feelings are proof of god.

Hi BULLDOG
I understand there is a mix of approaches or "denominations" of atheism. I find common differences such as:
1. NONtheism or secularist. Some believe in the same concepts that
God/Jesus stand for, such as truth or wisdom, justice, love, greatest good or ultimate benevolence for all humanity, creation/universe. But do not personify these as anthropomorphic figures or deities. Some do or do not equate their values with the same things Christians mean. But I use NONtheist to be Neutral, where it refers to secular terms for the same universal meanings.
2. Atheists can mean NOT believing there is a God/gods or believing there are NO such things as God/gods. Some people identify as Atheist but more agnostic. Some Atheists have no issues with Christians, others do. If they are not neutral as I use Nontheist for, then Atheist implies a bias against believing the neutral/secular terms are interchangeable with the Christian terms.
3. Anti-theists are opposed to Theists and Theism. This is like the politicized version of Atheism. Nontheism is the most neutral, where some people merely process ideas information and perceptions in the brain in secular terms.

From your response you seem to be neutral when people are neutral and openminded. But swing Atheist, not quite Antitheist as others can get, when people get religiously judgmental.

I think if you were not around jerks you would be nontheist and agnostic.

You can sort and stack all you want, but If you have seen no reason to believe there is a god, then you are an atheist. Go insulting atheists, or demanding our laws become Christian compliant will turn an atheist into an antitheist pretty quick. Believe what you want. If your religion gives you comfort, then good for you, bot you gota know that when you go making claims about your religion on a public forum, people will ask hard questions, and ridicule absurd answers.