Should Churches be forced to accomodate for homosexual weddings?

[Silhouette]

...A Christian Book store that does not stock playboy magazines isn't required to sell them to anyone because they are not a good that a business offers. If they do stock the magazine for sale, then they cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the custome...

This is a good example to talk about. Let's say a christian book store sells almost every type of magazine there is, except it refuses to sell "gay marriage digest", in spite of numerous requests by certain customers to stock and sell it.

Then lets say a christian baker will bake cakes for every wedding there is, except gay ones.

Good example. Even you admit there are limits when it comes to public accomodation.

 

[beagle9]

No, just change their charter or title is all, but most won't do it because they fear they would go bankrupt in the deal, so they will remain silent. The Christian baker spoke out, but his problem was that he wanted to profess his Christianity in the case, but his business didn't reflect his beliefs or anything other than he sold cakes to the public. The public should not be confused as to who it is that they are dealing with in my opinion, so I think it time for businesses to change their titles if they want to profess their religious beliefs in their business model. I guarantee you that it wouldn't be a problem anymore if this was the case.

You know that changing the business name does not exempt them from Public Accommodation laws - right?

Below is the Colorado Public Accommodation law, the law applicable in one of the "bakery" cases. Notice the "name" of the business is irrelevant to the functioning of a for profit public accommodation.

Colorado Revised Statutes

24-34-601. Discrimination in places of public accommodation - definition.

(1) As used in this part 6, "place of public accommodation" means any place of business engaged in any sales to the public and any place offering services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to the public, including but not limited to any business offering wholesale or retail sales to the public; any place to eat, drink, sleep, or rest, or any combination thereof; any sporting or recreational area and facility; any public transportation facility; a barber shop, bathhouse, swimming pool, bath, steam or massage parlor, gymnasium, or other establishment conducted to serve the health, appearance, or physical condition of a person; a campsite or trailer camp; a dispensary, clinic, hospital, convalescent home, or other institution for the sick, ailing, aged, or infirm; a mortuary, undertaking parlor, or cemetery; an educational institution; or any public building, park, arena, theater, hall, auditorium, museum, library, exhibit, or public facility of any kind whether indoor or outdoor. "Place of public accommodation" shall not include a church, synagogue, mosque, or other place that is principally used for religious purposes.

(2) It is a discriminatory practice and unlawful for a person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post, or mail any written, electronic, or printed communication, notice, or advertisement that indicates that the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation will be refused, withheld from, or denied an individual or that an individual's patronage or presence at a place of public accommodation is unwelcome, objectionable, unacceptable, or undesirable because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, al status, national origin, or ancestry.


COCODE​

>>>>

Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ? And if they don't have one (them being a book store and all), then I should be able to force them by the government doing it for me, to now have to carry that magazine for me right ? I mean hey I will say that I don't have a car, and the book store is in walking distance, and it does have book store in it's title, and it is open to the public, so why can't it carry my magazine for me ? Why can't it ACCOMMODATE ME ? sic.

I have far more respect than to get into these games, but some don't have any respect at all.

It becomes painfully obvious when someone makes a statement like "Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ?" that the individual has no clue about how Public Accommodation laws work.

But sigh, I'll answer anyway.

Public Accommodation laws DO NOT mandate what goods and services a business chooses to offer, the ONLY mandate that if a business VOLUNTARILY chooses to offer goods and services that the business cannot refuse sell those goods and services to a customer based on various criteria defined in the law. Different States have defined different criteria but some examples include: race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, and yes sexual orientation.

A Christian Book store that does not stock playboy magazines isn't required to sell them to anyone because they are not a good that a business offers. If they do stock the magazine for sale, then they cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A kosher deli is not required to sell a ham sandwich to a customer if they are kosher and don't stock ham. However if ham sandwiches are a normal menu item they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A baker is not required to offer wedding cakes are part of their business model, however if they VOLUNTARILY choose to offer them they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.


>>>>

The key word is Christian, and so if a Christian decides to label his or her business as a Christian Bakery, meaning that they don't engage in any activity that would be against their belief, their charter or their operational standard in which they keep, and the customers are fully aware that they are a Christian Bakery and all, then would you think it right that if I were to walk in and demand or ask for a Cake topper with a Devil, and maybe a demonic symbol on top that they should make it for me, otherwise to accommodate me ? And if the Baker refuses, then should I be able to go and get the feds to force that Bakery to create the topper in which I had ask it to make for me ? I didn't think so, but it's once again your move chess player..

 

[beagle9]

The key I would think is how one labels their business if they are Christians in this day and age, and this way there is no confusion at all in these things or there shouldn't be any confusion.

 

[WorldWatcher]

No, just change their charter or title is all, but most won't do it because they fear they would go bankrupt in the deal, so they will remain silent. The Christian baker spoke out, but his problem was that he wanted to profess his Christianity in the case, but his business didn't reflect his beliefs or anything other than he sold cakes to the public. The public should not be confused as to who it is that they are dealing with in my opinion, so I think it time for businesses to change their titles if they want to profess their religious beliefs in their business model. I guarantee you that it wouldn't be a problem anymore if this was the case.

You know that changing the business name does not exempt them from Public Accommodation laws - right?

Below is the Colorado Public Accommodation law, the law applicable in one of the "bakery" cases. Notice the "name" of the business is irrelevant to the functioning of a for profit public accommodation.

Colorado Revised Statutes

24-34-601. Discrimination in places of public accommodation - definition.

(1) As used in this part 6, "place of public accommodation" means any place of business engaged in any sales to the public and any place offering services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to the public, including but not limited to any business offering wholesale or retail sales to the public; any place to eat, drink, sleep, or rest, or any combination thereof; any sporting or recreational area and facility; any public transportation facility; a barber shop, bathhouse, swimming pool, bath, steam or massage parlor, gymnasium, or other establishment conducted to serve the health, appearance, or physical condition of a person; a campsite or trailer camp; a dispensary, clinic, hospital, convalescent home, or other institution for the sick, ailing, aged, or infirm; a mortuary, undertaking parlor, or cemetery; an educational institution; or any public building, park, arena, theater, hall, auditorium, museum, library, exhibit, or public facility of any kind whether indoor or outdoor. "Place of public accommodation" shall not include a church, synagogue, mosque, or other place that is principally used for religious purposes.

(2) It is a discriminatory practice and unlawful for a person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post, or mail any written, electronic, or printed communication, notice, or advertisement that indicates that the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation will be refused, withheld from, or denied an individual or that an individual's patronage or presence at a place of public accommodation is unwelcome, objectionable, unacceptable, or undesirable because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, al status, national origin, or ancestry.


COCODE​

>>>>

Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ? And if they don't have one (them being a book store and all), then I should be able to force them by the government doing it for me, to now have to carry that magazine for me right ? I mean hey I will say that I don't have a car, and the book store is in walking distance, and it does have book store in it's title, and it is open to the public, so why can't it carry my magazine for me ? Why can't it ACCOMMODATE ME ? sic.

I have far more respect than to get into these games, but some don't have any respect at all.

It becomes painfully obvious when someone makes a statement like "Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ?" that the individual has no clue about how Public Accommodation laws work.

But sigh, I'll answer anyway.

Public Accommodation laws DO NOT mandate what goods and services a business chooses to offer, the ONLY mandate that if a business VOLUNTARILY chooses to offer goods and services that the business cannot refuse sell those goods and services to a customer based on various criteria defined in the law. Different States have defined different criteria but some examples include: race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, and yes sexual orientation.

A Christian Book store that does not stock playboy magazines isn't required to sell them to anyone because they are not a good that a business offers. If they do stock the magazine for sale, then they cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A kosher deli is not required to sell a ham sandwich to a customer if they are kosher and don't stock ham. However if ham sandwiches are a normal menu item they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A baker is not required to offer wedding cakes are part of their business model, however if they VOLUNTARILY choose to offer them they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.


>>>>

The key word is Christian, and so if a Christian decides to label his or her business as a Christian Bakery, meaning that they don't engage in any activity that would be against their belief, their charter or their operational standard in which they keep, and the customers are fully aware that they are a Christian Bakery and all, then would you think it right that if I were to walk in and demand or ask for a Cake topper with a Devil, and maybe a demonic symbol on top that they should make it for me, otherwise to accommodate me ? And if the Baker refuses, then should I be able to go and get the feds to force that Bakery to create the topper in which I had ask it to make for me ? I didn't think so, but it's once again your move chess player..

What I think is "right" isn't relevant to the discussion but as I've already shared with you I'll repeat. I think that public accommodation laws as applied to private for-profit businesses should be repealed and the business owner free to refuse service based on whatever criteria they choose to function under. If they don't like black people, they can refuse service. If they don't like white people, they can refuse service. If they don't like Irish people, they can refuse service. If they don't like Muslim people, they can refuse service. If they don't like Christian people, they can refuse service. If they don't like homosexual people, they can refuse service. I don't think it's "right", but then again I don't think government should be dictating such things.

A discussion of what I think things should be and a discussion of the reality of how things are are two different discussions.

Whether a business uses "Christian" in the name of their business, under the law is irrelevant to how the laws function.

And again for your silly example, if a bakery stocks Devil cake toppers and sells them to straight couples, then (in states where sexual orientation is included under anti-discrimination law) they can't refuse to sell them to devil worshipers but sell them to Christians. If they don't stock them at all, then they are not required to sell them to anyone. If a bakery stocks male toppers and separate female toppers and sells them as individual items - they cannot refuse to sell two male or two female toppers to same-sex couples. Now if the bakery ONLY sold single toppers consisting of males and females as one unit - then they wouldn't be required to place a special order to procure single toppers with both figures being male or female. Unless of course special ordering toppers, instead of only selling from stock, is a service they provide to other patrons, in that case they provide such a service and would need to provide that service equally. To not fall into that problem, only sell toppers from stock and don't offer special orders.



>>>>

 

[WorldWatcher]

The key I would think is how one labels their business if they are Christians in this day and age, and this way there is no confusion at all in these things or there shouldn't be any confusion.

It's not, but you are free to think that is the way it should be. The current measuring stick under the law is the goods and services offered by the business, not the name of the business.


>>>>

 

[Silhouette]

It's not, but you are free to think that is the way it should be. The current measuring stick under the law is the goods and services offered by the business, not the name of the business.

But if the church resides in the breast of each man, how can you require him to defile that church by promoting a homosexual lifestyle, which is forbidden under threat of eternal damnation in Jude 1 and Romans 1 of the New Testament?

Will you be forcing a muslim baker to make a gay wedding cake next? (The answer is, if you value your head, 'no', of course...)

 

[Carib Gyal]

By politicians passing laws.

No church or mosque or synogue will be forced to marry ANYONE they don't want to marry- for whatever reason.

I already answered him. But my answer had to do with lobbyists.

How do you reconcile your previous statement,

"Neither is protected by the law- you can't deny service to an African American because you claim you have religious objections to serving him, nor can you deny service to a Jew by claiming religious objections.

Race- religion- national origin- gender- those are all protected by Federal law- and it is against the law to deny service to someone because they live a Jewish lifestyle or a Christian lifestyle."

With the above statement? Are weddings not services?

Marriage in a church is protected both by the Constitution, and every Public Accomodation law I have seen- i.e. anything religious done in a church is protected.

Civil marriage outside of a church is subject to PA laws.

Yeah, I know. So you can deny services to anyone you want - including gays - by claiming you have religious objections to serving them.

Whats wrong with having religious objections to not encouraging or engaging in anything that is sinful according to a Christian in this nation ? Remember that freedom of religion and religious expression is built into the nations dialog, so has that all changed somehow now ?

I'm all for Christians being allowed their freedom of religion. It's just interesting from a purely American standpoint when these so-called extralegal rights clash with the basic rights established in the Constitution.

 

[Skylar]

The key I would think is how one labels their business if they are Christians in this day and age, and this way there is no confusion at all in these things or there shouldn't be any confusion.

Labeling a business 'Christian' would be insufficient. You'd have to have the business created as a religious corporation.

 

[Skylar]

It's not, but you are free to think that is the way it should be. The current measuring stick under the law is the goods and services offered by the business, not the name of the business.

But if the church resides in the breast of each man, how can you require him to defile that church by promoting a homosexual lifestyle, which is forbidden under threat of eternal damnation in Jude 1 and Romans 1 of the New Testament?

If your religion forbids you from treating your customers fairly and equally, then you'll probably run into issues.

Will you be forcing a muslim baker to make a gay wedding cake next? (The answer is, if you value your head, 'no', of course...)

We'd expect a muslim baker to sell the goods he sells to say, Christians. Even if he feels that doing so would 'prommote a Christian lifestyle' which he may find offense.

 

[Skylar]

No, just change their charter or title is all, but most won't do it because they fear they would go bankrupt in the deal, so they will remain silent. The Christian baker spoke out, but his problem was that he wanted to profess his Christianity in the case, but his business didn't reflect his beliefs or anything other than he sold cakes to the public. The public should not be confused as to who it is that they are dealing with in my opinion, so I think it time for businesses to change their titles if they want to profess their religious beliefs in their business model. I guarantee you that it wouldn't be a problem anymore if this was the case.

You know that changing the business name does not exempt them from Public Accommodation laws - right?

Below is the Colorado Public Accommodation law, the law applicable in one of the "bakery" cases. Notice the "name" of the business is irrelevant to the functioning of a for profit public accommodation.

Colorado Revised Statutes

24-34-601. Discrimination in places of public accommodation - definition.

(1) As used in this part 6, "place of public accommodation" means any place of business engaged in any sales to the public and any place offering services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to the public, including but not limited to any business offering wholesale or retail sales to the public; any place to eat, drink, sleep, or rest, or any combination thereof; any sporting or recreational area and facility; any public transportation facility; a barber shop, bathhouse, swimming pool, bath, steam or massage parlor, gymnasium, or other establishment conducted to serve the health, appearance, or physical condition of a person; a campsite or trailer camp; a dispensary, clinic, hospital, convalescent home, or other institution for the sick, ailing, aged, or infirm; a mortuary, undertaking parlor, or cemetery; an educational institution; or any public building, park, arena, theater, hall, auditorium, museum, library, exhibit, or public facility of any kind whether indoor or outdoor. "Place of public accommodation" shall not include a church, synagogue, mosque, or other place that is principally used for religious purposes.

(2) It is a discriminatory practice and unlawful for a person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post, or mail any written, electronic, or printed communication, notice, or advertisement that indicates that the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation will be refused, withheld from, or denied an individual or that an individual's patronage or presence at a place of public accommodation is unwelcome, objectionable, unacceptable, or undesirable because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, al status, national origin, or ancestry.


COCODE​

>>>>

Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ? And if they don't have one (them being a book store and all), then I should be able to force them by the government doing it for me, to now have to carry that magazine for me right ? I mean hey I will say that I don't have a car, and the book store is in walking distance, and it does have book store in it's title, and it is open to the public, so why can't it carry my magazine for me ? Why can't it ACCOMMODATE ME ? sic.

I have far more respect than to get into these games, but some don't have any respect at all.

It becomes painfully obvious when someone makes a statement like "Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ?" that the individual has no clue about how Public Accommodation laws work.

But sigh, I'll answer anyway.

Public Accommodation laws DO NOT mandate what goods and services a business chooses to offer, the ONLY mandate that if a business VOLUNTARILY chooses to offer goods and services that the business cannot refuse sell those goods and services to a customer based on various criteria defined in the law. Different States have defined different criteria but some examples include: race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, and yes sexual orientation.

A Christian Book store that does not stock playboy magazines isn't required to sell them to anyone because they are not a good that a business offers. If they do stock the magazine for sale, then they cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A kosher deli is not required to sell a ham sandwich to a customer if they are kosher and don't stock ham. However if ham sandwiches are a normal menu item they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A baker is not required to offer wedding cakes are part of their business model, however if they VOLUNTARILY choose to offer them they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.


>>>>

They know exactly what public accommodation laws are. They're offering us obtuse analogies in hopes that those reading the thread, don't.

As is so common, their argument is dependent on the ignorance of their audience.

 

[beagle9]

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ?? Has anyone noticed how due to the infiltration that has been made in the destruction of this national holiday, that people are losing their spirit when it comes to Christmas anymore these days ? I mean the new generations I think feel that the holiday is something that is wrong to celebrate anymore, and they are being taught this from a very young age now if at all possible by those who are doing this to them, and wildly by those who we have intrusted to teach them...

I mean here it is two days before Christmas, and the malls and stores where I live, are in no ways anywhere near the capacity of the crowds in which they have once held in the past, so what is the cause of it all I wondered ? I think it is the constant attacks on Christianity in this nation, and how in the schools where the kids are young and impressionable, and they are teaching anti-Christianity these days. These attacks have worked wonders for those who are wanting to get rid of Christianity in this nation in the foreseeable future, and they want it gone so they can have these new and strangely lived lifestyles and/or beliefs in which they have created for themselves now, and so they figure that a Christian nation would be against such a thing, and onward it all goes including what is going on in this thread just as well. All one has to do is connect the dots, and then look at how people are reacting to the Christian holiday in this nation anymore along with everything else, and then wonder to ourselves how can we be so blind about it all ? Will America soon end it's Christianity side of this nation, and give way to things that are harmful and destructive to the people of a nation on down the road, and far into her future because of this loss ? How has the spirit moved you this season, and is Christianity under attack just like it is here by so many ?

 

[Skylar]

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ??

Anyone notice how many Christians are defining their faith by imagined attacks upon it? And I thought the Wiccans buried the needle on that one.

And notice how wildly irrelevant your point is to any issue we're discussing regarding gay marriage?

 

[beagle9]

The key I would think is how one labels their business if they are Christians in this day and age, and this way there is no confusion at all in these things or there shouldn't be any confusion.

Labeling a business 'Christian' would be insufficient. You'd have to have the business created as a religious corporation.

Is that what a Christian book store is, a religious corporation ?

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ??

Anyone notice how many Christians are defining their faith by imagined attacks upon it? And I thought the Wiccans buried the needle on that one.

And notice how wildly irrelevant your point is to any issue we're discussing regarding gay marriage?

It is right on point, because it appears that the gay's have been testing the waters on the Christians lately, just like many others have been doing on it upon just about every other issue they can find to pick a bone about with the Christians. I'm saying that there is a war on Christianity in this nation, and the gay's attacking it is just another part of that fight. Marriage in this nation was always between a man and a woman, and it was mostly a religious ceremony also, but just like the ten commandments and the boy scouts being run off of public government properties, and the offense challenges between those who are offended of our pledge of allegiance or about the cross at the military burial grounds excetra excetra, so don't tell me my points aren't relevant, when you know dang well that they are... It is a connect the dots game, where as some are quite good at it but others just try and act dumb about it. You want to act dumb about it, but we see through that also.

 

[Carib Gyal]

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ??

Anyone notice how many Christians are defining their faith by imagined attacks upon it? And I thought the Wiccans buried the needle on that one.

And notice how wildly irrelevant your point is to any issue we're discussing regarding gay marriage?

We have Wyccans here, but they're Indians. Loincloth and feather Indians. They live way up in the bush by themselves and they come down to town once in a while to sell birds and iguanas and stuff they make.

But I digress.

 

[Skylar]

Is that what a Christian book store is, a religious corporation ?

A religious corporation is a particular corporation type. Legally speaking, there's no such thing as a 'christian corporation'. There is, however, a religious corporation.

If you start your business as such, you'd probably have stronger grounds regarding public accommodation laws. But they bring with them all sorts of restrictions that the average business person might not be interested in.

I'm saying that there is a war on Christianity in this nation, and the gay's attacking it is just another part of that fight.

And I'm saying that your supposed 'war on Christianity' is overwhelmingly imagined. And gays are seeking legal rights under the law. You may believe whatever religious views you'd like.

 

[beagle9]

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ??

Anyone notice how many Christians are defining their faith by imagined attacks upon it? And I thought the Wiccans buried the needle on that one.

And notice how wildly irrelevant your point is to any issue we're discussing regarding gay marriage?

We have Wyccans here, but they're Indians. Loincloth and feather Indians. They live way up in the bush by themselves and they come down to town once in a while to sell birds and iguanas and stuff they make.

But I digress.

Would you ask one of them wiccans to bake you a cake for a gay wedding if they were to also bake cakes to sell, and if they refused based upon their belief in what ever it is that wiccans believe in, would you try and get them banned from coming down to sell their cakes, birds and iguanas all because of ?

 

[Carib Gyal]

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ??

Anyone notice how many Christians are defining their faith by imagined attacks upon it? And I thought the Wiccans buried the needle on that one.

And notice how wildly irrelevant your point is to any issue we're discussing regarding gay marriage?

We have Wyccans here, but they're Indians. Loincloth and feather Indians. They live way up in the bush by themselves and they come down to town once in a while to sell birds and iguanas and stuff they make.

But I digress.

Would you ask one of them wiccans to bake you a cake for a gay wedding if they were to also bake cakes to sell, and if they refused based upon their belief in what ever it is that wiccans believe in, would you try and get them banned from coming down to sell their cakes, birds and iguanas all because of ?

I'm not sure what you're asking me. Would I ask them to bake me a cake for a gay wedding? Sure.

But I'm not in America and we can pretty much do....or not do....what we want to here.

 

[beagle9]

Has anyone noticed that Christmas has been attacked for so long now, that it appears that people are intimidated about participating in it anymore or they are saying to themselves what's the use anymore ??

Anyone notice how many Christians are defining their faith by imagined attacks upon it? And I thought the Wiccans buried the needle on that one.

And notice how wildly irrelevant your point is to any issue we're discussing regarding gay marriage?

We have Wyccans here, but they're Indians. Loincloth and feather Indians. They live way up in the bush by themselves and they come down to town once in a while to sell birds and iguanas and stuff they make.

But I digress.

Would you ask one of them wiccans to bake you a cake for a gay wedding if they were to also bake cakes to sell, and if they refused based upon their belief in what ever it is that wiccans believe in, would you try and get them banned from coming down to sell their cakes, birds and iguanas all because of ?

I'm not sure what you're asking me. Would I ask them to bake me a cake for a gay wedding? Sure.

But I'm not in America and we can pretty much do....or not do....what we want to here.

If they refused would you want them banned, and if you don't but others did, would you fight for their freedom of choice in the matter ?

 

[Syriusly]

Been here since the beginning, haven't' seen anyone post a reputable link to an example of a member of the Clergy or a bonafide Church being sued, let alone losing the case, for refusing to perform a religious ceremony.


>>>>

What was I seeing or reading then ? Oh it must have not been a credible link as you said.. I must admit that I didn't click on the link, but I did see someone post a link to that affect in which was saying this sort of thing.

People say a lot of things. Being able to back them up is another thing.

I've seen no links to any credible lawsuit in the United States where a pastor or Church has been sued for refusing to perform an interracial marriage, an interfaith marriage, a marriage where one or both of the couple were divorced for reasons other than adultery, or since SSCM has been legal in at least one State for over a decade for refusing to perform an same-sex religious ceremony.



>>>>

Yeah, I know. So you can deny services to anyone you want - including gays - by claiming you have religious objections to serving them.

Whats wrong with having religious objections to not encouraging or engaging in anything that is sinful according to a Christian in this nation ? Remember that freedom of religion and religious expression is built into the nations dialog, so has that all changed somehow now ?

And when people refuse to do business with blacks or Jews or Chinese or women or the handicapped by claiming that selling them gas will violate their religious beliefs?

Not going to happen, and if you suggest this, then you are also one for silently agreeing upon the final attempt of suing a Church, but you won't go there just yet now will you ?

Oh I have said repeatedly- any idiot can sue for any reason.

Someone may sue a church someday for refusing to marry a Jew or a Black or Mormon or a homosexual- and they will be laughed out of court.

What you propose are laws that would allow anyone to discriminate against anyone by claiming that they have religious objections to them.

Which would effectively gut public accomodation laws.

If that is what you want.

No, because what is religious in belief would have to be proven as such, otherwise it can't just be used like people are using the civil rights laws to include everything but the kitchen sink these days now can they, or wait a cotton picken second here, maybe they can use religion in the same ways that people are using the civil rights laws as well. Tit-for Tat right ? Hmmm..

Christians can't even agree with themselves.

Look at the issue of Divorce. Jesus of course mentions divorce- but most Protestant churches allow divorce and remarriage.

Christian ministers have argued for racial segregation in the past- citing passages from the Bible to support it.

And then who decides whether someone has a 'genuine' religious objection, and who does not?

For example- if a shop keeper refused to sell a woman pants- who would judge whether he refused because of religious objections or because she happened to be a woman?

 

[Syriusly]

No, just change their charter or title is all, but most won't do it because they fear they would go bankrupt in the deal, so they will remain silent. The Christian baker spoke out, but his problem was that he wanted to profess his Christianity in the case, but his business didn't reflect his beliefs or anything other than he sold cakes to the public. The public should not be confused as to who it is that they are dealing with in my opinion, so I think it time for businesses to change their titles if they want to profess their religious beliefs in their business model. I guarantee you that it wouldn't be a problem anymore if this was the case.

You know that changing the business name does not exempt them from Public Accommodation laws - right?

Below is the Colorado Public Accommodation law, the law applicable in one of the "bakery" cases. Notice the "name" of the business is irrelevant to the functioning of a for profit public accommodation.

Colorado Revised Statutes

24-34-601. Discrimination in places of public accommodation - definition.

(1) As used in this part 6, "place of public accommodation" means any place of business engaged in any sales to the public and any place offering services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations to the public, including but not limited to any business offering wholesale or retail sales to the public; any place to eat, drink, sleep, or rest, or any combination thereof; any sporting or recreational area and facility; any public transportation facility; a barber shop, bathhouse, swimming pool, bath, steam or massage parlor, gymnasium, or other establishment conducted to serve the health, appearance, or physical condition of a person; a campsite or trailer camp; a dispensary, clinic, hospital, convalescent home, or other institution for the sick, ailing, aged, or infirm; a mortuary, undertaking parlor, or cemetery; an educational institution; or any public building, park, arena, theater, hall, auditorium, museum, library, exhibit, or public facility of any kind whether indoor or outdoor. "Place of public accommodation" shall not include a church, synagogue, mosque, or other place that is principally used for religious purposes.

(2) It is a discriminatory practice and unlawful for a person, directly or indirectly, to refuse, withhold from, or deny to an individual or a group, because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, marital status, national origin, or ancestry, the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation or, directly or indirectly, to publish, circulate, issue, display, post, or mail any written, electronic, or printed communication, notice, or advertisement that indicates that the full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, or accommodations of a place of public accommodation will be refused, withheld from, or denied an individual or that an individual's patronage or presence at a place of public accommodation is unwelcome, objectionable, unacceptable, or undesirable because of disability, race, creed, color, sex, sexual orientation, al status, national origin, or ancestry.


COCODE​

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Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ? And if they don't have one (them being a book store and all), then I should be able to force them by the government doing it for me, to now have to carry that magazine for me right ? I mean hey I will say that I don't have a car, and the book store is in walking distance, and it does have book store in it's title, and it is open to the public, so why can't it carry my magazine for me ? Why can't it ACCOMMODATE ME ? sic.

I have far more respect than to get into these games, but some don't have any respect at all.

It becomes painfully obvious when someone makes a statement like "Oh joy, so I can go into a Christian book store and demand they sell me a playboy magazine right ?" that the individual has no clue about how Public Accommodation laws work.

But sigh, I'll answer anyway.

Public Accommodation laws DO NOT mandate what goods and services a business chooses to offer, the ONLY mandate that if a business VOLUNTARILY chooses to offer goods and services that the business cannot refuse sell those goods and services to a customer based on various criteria defined in the law. Different States have defined different criteria but some examples include: race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, and yes sexual orientation.

A Christian Book store that does not stock playboy magazines isn't required to sell them to anyone because they are not a good that a business offers. If they do stock the magazine for sale, then they cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A kosher deli is not required to sell a ham sandwich to a customer if they are kosher and don't stock ham. However if ham sandwiches are a normal menu item they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.

A baker is not required to offer wedding cakes are part of their business model, however if they VOLUNTARILY choose to offer them they cannot cannot refuse sales based on (depending on the State) the race, religion, sex, national origin, ethnicity, marital status, parental status, veterans status, or sexual orientation of the customer.


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The key word is Christian, and so if a Christian decides to label his or her business as a Christian Bakery, meaning that they don't engage in any activity that would be against their belief, their charter or their operational standard in which they keep, and the customers are fully aware that they are a Christian Bakery and all, then would you think it right that if I were to walk in and demand or ask for a Cake topper with a Devil, and maybe a demonic symbol on top that they should make it for me, otherwise to accommodate me ? And if the Baker refuses, then should I be able to go and get the feds to force that Bakery to create the topper in which I had ask it to make for me ? I didn't think so, but it's once again your move chess player..

What I think is "right" isn't relevant to the discussion but as I've already shared with you I'll repeat. I think that public accommodation laws as applied to private for-profit businesses should be repealed and the business owner free to refuse service based on whatever criteria they choose to function under. If they don't like black people, they can refuse service. If they don't like white people, they can refuse service. If they don't like Irish people, they can refuse service. If they don't like Muslim people, they can refuse service. If they don't like Christian people, they can refuse service. If they don't like homosexual people, they can refuse service. I don't think it's "right", but then again I don't think government should be dictating such things.

A discussion of what I think things should be and a discussion of the reality of how things are are two different discussions.

Whether a business uses "Christian" in the name of their business, under the law is irrelevant to how the laws function.

And again for your silly example, if a bakery stocks Devil cake toppers and sells them to straight couples, then (in states where sexual orientation is included under anti-discrimination law) they can't refuse to sell them to devil worshipers but sell them to Christians. If they don't stock them at all, then they are not required to sell them to anyone. If a bakery stocks male toppers and separate female toppers and sells them as individual items - they cannot refuse to sell two male or two female toppers to same-sex couples. Now if the bakery ONLY sold single toppers consisting of males and females as one unit - then they wouldn't be required to place a special order to procure single toppers with both figures being male or female. Unless of course special ordering toppers, instead of only selling from stock, is a service they provide to other patrons, in that case they provide such a service and would need to provide that service equally. To not fall into that problem, only sell toppers from stock and don't offer special orders.



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Great post.