So What Happened To Blacks After Slavery?

[IM2]

None of them were named Obama.

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?
Does that make me the authority on the Civil War? Duh?

LOL! This child has lost the debate and is reaching for whatever he can, even if it has no relation to the discussion. My being black and getting told by the blacks who participated in the migration why they came north makes me an authority.

Sounds to me that your relatives were as clueless as you are, IM2! I'm beginning to understand how you got to be this way!

My relatives lived the experience you read about and are trying to argue. I think they would know why the fuck they left the south. You have lost this debate son. The white boy I know it all technique ain't tolerated here. Blacks left the south due to racism. Period.

Your ONLY response to my questions is that your relatives told you so! YOU'VE lost this debate...only you're too stupid to realize it!

My relatives participated in the great migration. You lose.

 

[Asclepias]

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?

What does that have to do with anything?

Absolutely nothing, which was my point! Having a relative that did something doesn't make someone an authority on it!

That was a stupid point. No one was talking about a war. Having a relative that participated in the subject you are discussing makes that person more of an authority than some outsider. How the fuck you going to read a book and tell someone who has relatives that lived what you read about that they are wrong?

How does one validate the testimony of someone else's relative? How do we even know that IM2 is black? How do we know that he has relatives? How do we know that those relatives ever lived in the south? How do we know that they migrated to the north during The Great Migration? Claiming that your relative told you so is laughable! It's the kind of thing that someone does when they can't back up their contentions with facts! It's the kind of thing that IM2 does all the time!

Its not up to you to validate. Youre no one important. You dont run shit. I know IM2 is Black. I know he has relatives. I know they came from the south. Pretty much the same area my family came from. its really not up for debate. As a white person you are ignorant of the facts that pretty much all Black people know.

 

[Oldestyle]

None of them were named Obama.

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?
Does that make me the authority on the Civil War? Duh?

LOL! This child has lost the debate and is reaching for whatever he can, even if it has no relation to the discussion. My being black and getting told by the blacks who participated in the migration why they came north makes me an authority.

Sounds to me that your relatives were as clueless as you are, IM2! I'm beginning to understand how you got to be this way!

My relatives lived the experience you read about and are trying to argue. I think they would know why the fuck they left the south. You have lost this debate son. The white boy I know it all technique ain't tolerated here. Blacks left the south due to racism. Period.

Your ONLY response to my questions is that your relatives told you so! YOU'VE lost this debate...only you're too stupid to realize it!

My relatives participated in the great migration. You lose.

You lost this debate days ago...claiming that your relatives told you something NOW is laughable!

 

[flacaltenn]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

 

[Oldestyle]

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?

What does that have to do with anything?

Absolutely nothing, which was my point! Having a relative that did something doesn't make someone an authority on it!

That was a stupid point. No one was talking about a war. Having a relative that participated in the subject you are discussing makes that person more of an authority than some outsider. How the fuck you going to read a book and tell someone who has relatives that lived what you read about that they are wrong?

How does one validate the testimony of someone else's relative? How do we even know that IM2 is black? How do we know that he has relatives? How do we know that those relatives ever lived in the south? How do we know that they migrated to the north during The Great Migration? Claiming that your relative told you so is laughable! It's the kind of thing that someone does when they can't back up their contentions with facts! It's the kind of thing that IM2 does all the time!

Its not up to you to validate. Youre no one important. You dont run shit. I know IM2 is Black. I know he has relatives. I know they came from the south. Pretty much the same area my family came from. its really not up for debate. As a white person you are ignorant of the facts that pretty much all Black people know.

You know all those things how exactly?

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Oldestyle would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that my father went and flew overseas in WWII because the GI Bill was dangled before him ...

 

[Oldestyle]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

 

[IM2]

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?

What does that have to do with anything?

Absolutely nothing, which was my point! Having a relative that did something doesn't make someone an authority on it!

That was a stupid point. No one was talking about a war. Having a relative that participated in the subject you are discussing makes that person more of an authority than some outsider. How the fuck you going to read a book and tell someone who has relatives that lived what you read about that they are wrong?

How does one validate the testimony of someone else's relative? How do we even know that IM2 is black? How do we know that he has relatives? How do we know that those relatives ever lived in the south? How do we know that they migrated to the north during The Great Migration? Claiming that your relative told you so is laughable! It's the kind of thing that someone does when they can't back up their contentions with facts! It's the kind of thing that IM2 does all the time!

Unfortunateley for you, I have filled this thread full of facts. And one of them was this:

Between 1910 and 1970, an estimated six million African-Americans migrated from southern states to northern and Midwestern cities.

Attempting to escape racism and Jim Crow laws of the South, African-Americans found work in northern and western steel mills, tanneries, and railroad companies.

Causes of the Great Migration: Searching for the Promised Land

Learn about the various causes of the Great Migration, when millions of African Americans migrated from southern states to northern and Midwestern cities.

www.thoughtco.com

You are so full of white supremacy that you think that you can argue with me about events people told me about who lived through them. Things I said are as I said them, and every black person here has told your retarded white supremacist ass that blacks moved north because of racism. What some white person wrote in a book doesn't change that.

 

[Oldestyle]

Oldestyle would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that we went and fought overseas during WWII because the GI Bill was waiting ...

By the way...if you'd like me to give you the reasons the Puritans came to America I'd be more than happy to oblige. My ancestors were among them...so according to IM2...that makes me an authority on all things Puritan...right? (eye roll)

 

[flacaltenn]

I don’t include you, @flacaltenn, among those who badger and insult just for partisan purposes. Doesn’t seem like you would do such a thing. I hope not.

Trust me.. My interests LIE in a scientific inquiry into racial/religious bias and disparities and how to FIX THEM.. Not interested in the PAST -- I'm looking at the HERE and NOW.. And since I DO HAVE some "diversity and grievance points" myself -- I know that racists are universally stupid and can not DEFEND their bias intellectually.. Just like it's futile for a "Diversity Scholar" to prove racism by looking at economic/education/law and justice issues that afflict ALL races/creeds to some same extent and CONCLUDE the SOLE CAUSE is racism.. It is not.. Working TOGETHER on those issues improves race relations.. ACCUSING PEOPLE like me of BEING a racist and holding a chanting, politically correct demonstration in threads does not...

 

[Oldestyle]

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?

What does that have to do with anything?

Absolutely nothing, which was my point! Having a relative that did something doesn't make someone an authority on it!

That was a stupid point. No one was talking about a war. Having a relative that participated in the subject you are discussing makes that person more of an authority than some outsider. How the fuck you going to read a book and tell someone who has relatives that lived what you read about that they are wrong?

How does one validate the testimony of someone else's relative? How do we even know that IM2 is black? How do we know that he has relatives? How do we know that those relatives ever lived in the south? How do we know that they migrated to the north during The Great Migration? Claiming that your relative told you so is laughable! It's the kind of thing that someone does when they can't back up their contentions with facts! It's the kind of thing that IM2 does all the time!

Unfortunateley for you, I have filled this thread full of facts. And one of them was this:

Between 1910 and 1970, an estimated six million African-Americans migrated from southern states to northern and Midwestern cities.

Attempting to escape racism and Jim Crow laws of the South, African-Americans found work in northern and western steel mills, tanneries, and railroad companies.

Causes of the Great Migration: Searching for the Promised Land

Learn about the various causes of the Great Migration, when millions of African Americans migrated from southern states to northern and Midwestern cities.

www.thoughtco.com

You are so full of white supremacy that you think that you can argue with me about events people told me about who lived through them. Things I said are as I said them, and every black person here has told your retarded white supremacist ass that blacks moved north because of racism. What some white person wrote in a book doesn't change that.

Every black person? Oh, you mean Milk Weed? Gotcha...LOL

 

[IM2]

Old style would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that Americans went overseas to fight and die during WWII to advance their careers ...

IM2 would say that the Puritans came to American because of racism...that Jews went to Israel because of racism...that American fought the Revolutionary war because of racism...that they also fought and died in WWII because of racism. It's a one size fits all with IM2 and Milkweed. Racism...racism and racism!

No, I would say that puritans came to America to escape the class persecution that was going on in Europe at the time between the nobility and the serfs. I would say that the revolutionary war was fought by the white colonists over the unfairness of being subject the British rule without being represented. I would say that soldiers like my dad fought in WW2 to stop the Germans, Italians and Japanese. Only a retard like you thinks I make everything about racism. I make racism about racism. IT'S NOT MY FAULT THAT WHITES LIKE YOU CONTINUE THE RACISM IN THIS COUNTRY.

 

[Asclepias]

I read your historical comments carefully, Oldstyle . I was inclined at first to agree with you when you first mentioned the economic pull of better paying jobs in the north, about WWI creating job opportunities for southern African Americans, about decreased family farm ownership among all groups. Obviously for many blacks WWI opened up a possible escape from poverty and oppression. Many were long economically and politically forced into de facto slavery in the south. They were a despised race-color caste of sharecroppers, prisoners searching for any escape.

But then you started this narrow game about why they didn’t leave earlier, challenging IM2 to “explain that!,” and I concluded you were not trying to educate but just win a point, a point you were fundamentally ignorant about. As I tried to explain earlier, NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

So let me see if I follow your rationale here, Tom! You think that it took two generations of blacks living in the south before they were suddenly overwhelmed by the "reality of American racism" and THAT caused millions of them to uproot and move to the north? That's what you're going with to explain why The Great Exodus started in 1920 and not in 1870? With all due respect...that's absurd!

A more reasonable explanation is that a massive shortage of labor in the north brought on by the First World War prompted northern industrialists to recruit southern black labor to work in their factories. It isn't that the southern blacks were reacting to southern racism because let's be honest here...racism was alive and well from the close of the Civil War until the start of WWI...it's that they were reacting to the promise of a better life in the north. A better life because of better jobs!

You are white. I am black with family that made the move. It was due to racism, period. That is what they and all the old blacks I talked to while growing up told me. You can have all the opinion you want, you can believe what you want, but the facts have nothing to do with your wants.

So jobs in the north that paid three times what they did in the south wasn't a contributing factor? Just a coincidence that occurred at the start of The Great Migration?

Racism was the reason. I'm done arguing with you about that.

IMO opinion:

The migration occurred due to racist policies in the south, which also affected the available jobs for blacks.

I recall vividly, the fear that southern black people felt about the Klan, and how they expressed the need to leave.

Job opportunities were definitely a part of it, but the blatant racism in the south was also a big factor as well.

That can't be denied.

Sigh...racist policies existed in the south long before 1920, Katsteve! So why were blacks not afraid of them in the fifty years since the Civil War? In 1920 the Klan was reconstituting but this time it was not just in the south...there were an estimated 40,000 Klansmen in the Detroit area. So explain to me why blacks would leave the south out of fear of the Klan when the Klan was now in the area they were going to be moving to but DIDN'T move when the Klan was only in the south?

Why do you continuing arguing with blacks whose family members moved during the great migration? Why are you trying to tell us why it happened when we were told why by the blacks who actually did the moving? We did not come to these opinions by reading about it in a white written textbook, that was published by a white company, then approved by a majority or all white state education board.

Why do you continue to argue something that's totally illogical? You think millions of blacks moved north because of racism? That's laughable. Millions of blacks moved north because of high paying jobs that were available because World War I took away the white workers in the north. I know you NEED it be because of racism...because that supports your white man is to blame for all things bad concept but it doesn't hold up to an examination of the facts.

You sound like a fucking idiot. Every Black person I know will tell you their family left the south because of the institutionalized racism there. Of course it helped that there were jobs but dont get it twisted.

It "helped" that there were jobs that paid 3 times what they would make if they stayed in the south?

None have you have explained why it took 50 years for that "institutionalized racism" to suddenly spur a migration!

We don't need to explain that to you. Blacks started going north from the time of slavery so no one was waiting for anything.

And yet The Great Migration is listed as taking place between 1920 and 1970? Gee, IM2...did slavery end in 1919? Duh?

I had relatives that participated in the great migration. Did you?

I have a relative that commanded a black regiment in the Civil War. Did you?

What does that have to do with anything?

Absolutely nothing, which was my point! Having a relative that did something doesn't make someone an authority on it!

That was a stupid point. No one was talking about a war. Having a relative that participated in the subject you are discussing makes that person more of an authority than some outsider. How the fuck you going to read a book and tell someone who has relatives that lived what you read about that they are wrong?

How does one validate the testimony of someone else's relative? How do we even know that IM2 is black? How do we know that he has relatives? How do we know that those relatives ever lived in the south? How do we know that they migrated to the north during The Great Migration? Claiming that your relative told you so is laughable! It's the kind of thing that someone does when they can't back up their contentions with facts! It's the kind of thing that IM2 does all the time!

Its not up to you to validate. Youre no one important. You dont run shit. I know IM2 is Black. I know he has relatives. I know they came from the south. Pretty much the same area my family came from. its really not up for debate. As a white person you are ignorant of the facts that pretty much all Black people know.

You know all those things how exactly?

Not sure what you mean? How do you go about getting to know someone? Apply the same method here unless you do something weird that white people do.

 

[IM2]

I don’t include you, @flacaltenn, among those who badger and insult just for partisan purposes. Doesn’t seem like you would do such a thing. I hope not.

Trust me.. My interests LIE in a scientific inquiry into racial/religious bias and disparities and how to FIX THEM.. Not interested in the PAST -- I'm looking at the HERE and NOW.. And since I DO HAVE some "diversity and grievance points" myself -- I know that racists are universally stupid and can not DEFEND their bias intellectually.. Just like it's futile for a "Diversity Scholar" to prove racism by looking at economic/education/law and justice issues that afflict ALL races/creeds to some same extent and CONCLUDE the SOLE CAUSE is racism.. It is not.. Working TOGETHER on those issues improves race relations.. ACCUSING PEOPLE like me of BEING a racist and holding a chanting, politically correct demonstration in threads does not...

Your interests seem to lie in denying racism and calling opposition to white racism political correctness. I have presented science, try talking about it.

 

[flacaltenn]

NOTHING about the African-American experience in that period, not life in the south, not life in the north, not buying a tiny farm or losing that farm, not staying in the south, not moving to the north .... can be explained adequately without reference to the overwhelming reality of American racism. This was a period of increasing national racism, north and south. Black scholars understand this. Most whites have no idea.

That increasing racism between the wars was literally SPEARHEADED by govt policy... Complete communities built on segregation.. Policies in our OWN MILITARY which weren't really repaired until after the SECOND war.. Policies that YES -- most white people were UNAWARE that their govt was perpetrating. I know this BECAUSE I'm an ACTUAL Liberal.. Not a leftist.. But more of a Thomas Paine/ Henry Thoreau libertarian liberal that is one of the FEW on the left that hasn't lost an INNATE and powerful distrust of big muscular govt..

Since MOST Americans were too preoccupied with the Great Depression and later the threats of Hitler and Tojo to be AWARE of the shitty cards the government was dealing to blacks (EVEN during that leftist icon FDR "New Deal") --- you CANNOT call that as a racially INGRAINED populace.. Tuskeegee Airman are only LATELY national heroes,. Only NOW getting THEIR medals and movies.. But THEIR issue was GOVERNMENT policies. And government stupidity is NOT the people. Especially during those hard 60 years for EVERYONE...

Failures of LEADERSHIP.. Failures to scientifically DEFINE the problems.. Problems that on the WHOLE affect the poor and poorly educated of ALL races in America...

 

[flacaltenn]

I don’t include you, @flacaltenn, among those who badger and insult just for partisan purposes. Doesn’t seem like you would do such a thing. I hope not.

Trust me.. My interests LIE in a scientific inquiry into racial/religious bias and disparities and how to FIX THEM.. Not interested in the PAST -- I'm looking at the HERE and NOW.. And since I DO HAVE some "diversity and grievance points" myself -- I know that racists are universally stupid and can not DEFEND their bias intellectually.. Just like it's futile for a "Diversity Scholar" to prove racism by looking at economic/education/law and justice issues that afflict ALL races/creeds to some same extent and CONCLUDE the SOLE CAUSE is racism.. It is not.. Working TOGETHER on those issues improves race relations.. ACCUSING PEOPLE like me of BEING a racist and holding a chanting, politically correct demonstration in threads does not...

Your interests seem to lie in denying racism and calling opposition to white racism political correctness. I have presented science, try talking about it.

Only "science" I've seen was an ATTEMPT at the 2018 Hate Crime stats that I had to sort out for you.. Political science is taught in the Liberal Arts. It's a completely foreign concept to me.. When it becomes "social science" I can better identify because that's in the general universe of reason and numbers and facts..

 

[flacaltenn]

What do you think Jesse Jackson DID to make that 15 million, IM2?

He did multiple trips to Silicon Valley to shake down Big Tech there. I know that because it torqued me off and bordered on immoral that his energies would be wasted on corporate extortion INSTEAD of getting trainloads of qualified black talent in science, engineering and technology to PLACE into valuable jobs in the Silicon Valley...

 

[Tom Paine 1949]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

Fair enough. I didn’t mean you when I said people insult IM2 — and others — just for supporting “the party of Obama and most African Americans.” I am happy if you respect the intelligence and academic achievement of men like W.E.B. DuBois, who himself lived a long life in which he was at different times a Lincoln-admiring Republican, a leader of the NAACP, a Socialist and a Pan-Africanist. I haven’t been here long, haven’t seen what you say about IM2, or know you or many people here well. If I strongly disagree with IM2 about such matters in the future, I hope I will find a way to express myself in a constructive way. That is sometimes all we can do when we disagree ... especially about politics and hyper-sensitive issues of race.

 

[flacaltenn]

Oldestyle would say the Puritans came to America for the higher wages, that Jews liberated from concentration camps went to Israel for better wages, that Americans fought for independence just for money, that my father went and flew overseas in WWII because the GI Bill was dangled before him ...

No.. the common threads THERE --- surprise surprise -- Tee Hee -- Would seem to be GOVERNMENT ABUSE that they suffered thru. And for the GI bill -- IT WAS kinda dangled in front of kids whose parents barely got them thru Great Depression.. You starting to see a LIGHT here yet TP??

 

[flacaltenn]

Did IM2 say anything like the above? He quoted many academic studies, and most of them were well worth reading. When he defends Obama — a genuinely well educated man; when he uses W.E.B. Dubois as his avatar — a man who could outthink any one of us in several languages, he doesn’t show disrespect for academic achievement. Yet he gets insulted by many here just for supporting his party and the party of Obama and most African-Americans!

Attempting to correct racial disparities requires a complete and open-minded exploration of the causes for those disparities.. Blaming racism before you DO THAT is too convenient and simplistic. MANY of those causes are SYSTEMIC -- and only affect the black community in an unequal manner BECAUSE of education and economic gaps.. The Big Three being education, economic income and access to EQUAL and ACCOMMODATING justice that takes into account the special needs of folks living on the edge of economic ruin.

NOWHERE did I mention Obama.. NOWHERE did I demean Dubois or ANY OTHER black high academic achiever.. In FACT -- I've REPEATEDLY suggested that SUCCESSFUL and high achieving blacks BE used as role models.. Don't give a damn about their politics.. IM2 in the past has posted mind numbing crap about "math and science" as being "racist".. He's DISSED high acheiving blacks that dont fit his political views REPEATEDLY.. Its VERY political how he excommunicates high achieving blacks that DO NOT FIT HIS POLITICS... I don't play that game, because I'm a FIXER of things. Not a demagogue.

Fair enough. I didn’t mean you when I said people insult IM2 — and others — just for supporting “the party of Obama and most African Americans.” I am happy if you respect the intelligence and academic achievement of men like W.E.B. DuBois, who himself lived a long life in which he was at different times a Lincoln-admiring Republican, a leader of the NAACP, a Socialist and a Pan-Africanist. I haven’t been here long, haven’t seen what you say about IM2, or know you or many people here well. If I strongly disagree with IM2 about such matters in the future, I hope I will find a way to express myself in a constructive way. That is sometimes all we can do when we disagree ... especially about politics.

Can't we all just "get along" ??? Actually not really a rhetorical question.. Because after going 20 or 30 pages with some of the "black educators" here -- the most IMPORTANT thing you'll learn TP, is that they are afeared of stuff like "racial reconcilation".. Aint shopping for any improved "social interactions that might result from honest discussion.. Because IF that happened, THEY would become irrelevant.. In a Kumbaya world -- some of resident "grievance scholars" would be VERY unhappy that the PAST and history is IN the past..