Sodom and Gomorrah

[Foxfyre]

I'm not someone who tries to spread atheism or non-belief but I have a couple questions for the board while we're on the subject.


Is it wrong for a believer to try to spread christianity? Is it wrong for an atheist to try and spread atheism? (both using non-violent means)

The short answer is yes to both questions.

Those of us who try to 'spread Christianity' too often do so by making God a tyrant and the Christ a most unappealing figure. And too often the end product is an empty religion that goes through the motions but produces few of the benefits and crumbles under adversity. We were never commanded to spread Christianity. We are commanded to spread the Gospel, that is God made promises throughout human history, He was with us to fulfill those promises, and He loves us. Those He calls to teach can get into the finer points. Our job is to make the introduction. He takes it from there to change hearts and spread Christianity. Christianity, boiled down to its barest essentials, is not a religion. It is a relationship with the living God.

To try to 'spread Atheism' requires taking faith that brings billions of people joy, hope, comfort, and peace and replacing it with emptiness. When you compare societies that are predominantly Christian with societies that are predominantly Atheist, it should be apparent which produces the most compassion, good, and aesthetically pleasing way of life.

 

[Sky Dancer]

When you knock on the door, and the person inside says, "please go away", it is aggression to say, "no, I'm knocking your door down".

That is analogous to the mistakes some who proselytize make. They also claim to be superior. They claim their way of life is superior and so they push it on others.

Watch the movie, Rabbit Proof Fence. Very sincere missionaries took the children 1200 miles away from their families to "improve" them by training them to be servants and making them mate with whites.

The result was a miserable failure and cultural genocide.

FF always assumes a superior, nose in the air, view of herself and her beliefs and way of life to all others. It is NOT true, that atheists are, in ANY way, inferior moral human beings to religious.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I'm not someone who tries to spread atheism or non-belief but I have a couple questions for the board while we're on the subject.


Is it wrong for a believer to try to spread christianity? Is it wrong for an atheist to try and spread atheism? (both using non-violent means)

The short answer is yes to both questions.

Those of us who try to 'spread Christianity' too often do so by making God a tyrant and the Christ a most unappealing figure. And too often the end product is an empty religion that goes through the motions but produces few of the benefits and crumbles under adversity. We were never commanded to spread Christianity. We are commanded to spread the Gospel, that is God made promises throughout human history, He was with us to fulfill those promises, and He loves us. Those He calls to teach can get into the finer points. Our job is to make the introduction. He takes it from there to change hearts and spread Christianity. Christianity, boiled down to its barest essentials, is not a religion. It is a relationship with the living God.

To try to 'spread Atheism' requires taking faith that brings billions of people joy, hope, comfort, and peace and replacing it with emptiness. When you compare societies that are predominantly Christian with societies that are predominantly Atheist, it should be apparent which produces the most compassion, good, and aesthetically pleasing way of life.

I agree with most of that, but when i went from a believer to a non-believer I was still every bit as fulfilled as before. Had no real impact on me.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not someone who tries to spread atheism or non-belief but I have a couple questions for the board while we're on the subject.


Is it wrong for a believer to try to spread christianity? Is it wrong for an atheist to try and spread atheism? (both using non-violent means)

The short answer is yes to both questions.

Those of us who try to 'spread Christianity' too often do so by making God a tyrant and the Christ a most unappealing figure. And too often the end product is an empty religion that goes through the motions but produces few of the benefits and crumbles under adversity. We were never commanded to spread Christianity. We are commanded to spread the Gospel, that is God made promises throughout human history, He was with us to fulfill those promises, and He loves us. Those He calls to teach can get into the finer points. Our job is to make the introduction. He takes it from there to change hearts and spread Christianity. Christianity, boiled down to its barest essentials, is not a religion. It is a relationship with the living God.

To try to 'spread Atheism' requires taking faith that brings billions of people joy, hope, comfort, and peace and replacing it with emptiness. When you compare societies that are predominantly Christian with societies that are predominantly Atheist, it should be apparent which produces the most compassion, good, and aesthetically pleasing way of life.

I agree with most of that, but when i went from a believer to a non-believer I was still every bit as fulfilled as before. Had no real impact on me.

And I believe you. But then again, all those who are 'believers' because they were taught to be aren't necessarily in a very real relationship with the Christ/God either. I suppose it is possible for those in such a relationship to reject that, but I don't know anybody who did.

I have friends, relatives, and colleagues who are Atheists whom I love dearly and who are the salt of the Earth as well as being good, funny, intelligent, and thoughtful people and most pleasant to be around. My comments are certainly no judgment or criticism of any individual. And also, nobody knows better than me that there are many who call themselves Christian who by no means conduct their lives in a Christian manner.

But you know, I can't imagine any of the youth or young adults involved in our Church being out there with the more destructive, violent OWS groups. I can't imagine them defecating on a police car or smashing store windows or threatening people just trying to get to work. I can't imagine anybody who has a relationship with Jesus Christ thinking that was okay. Of course most Atheists don't think it is okay either, but nevertheless, I am confident most of those people doing that are not people of a JudeoChristian faith.

And again, I don't know of a single thrift shop, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, orphanage, or any other ministry to the more helpless and hopeless that was started and is staffed and primarily funded by Atheists. All seem to be efforts of those of a JudeoChristian faith, sometimes the most fundie and narrow minded of those of JudeoChristian faith.

When we are looking for a safe and pleasing new neighborhood, we look for lots of traditional families and lots of churches. We know that there we will have mostly good neighbors and a safer, more aesthetically pleasing environment.

Too often when people look to government instead of God for their salvation, or think they don't need anybody but themselves, you get something closer to a Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

[Dr.Drock]

The short answer is yes to both questions.

Those of us who try to 'spread Christianity' too often do so by making God a tyrant and the Christ a most unappealing figure. And too often the end product is an empty religion that goes through the motions but produces few of the benefits and crumbles under adversity. We were never commanded to spread Christianity. We are commanded to spread the Gospel, that is God made promises throughout human history, He was with us to fulfill those promises, and He loves us. Those He calls to teach can get into the finer points. Our job is to make the introduction. He takes it from there to change hearts and spread Christianity. Christianity, boiled down to its barest essentials, is not a religion. It is a relationship with the living God.

To try to 'spread Atheism' requires taking faith that brings billions of people joy, hope, comfort, and peace and replacing it with emptiness. When you compare societies that are predominantly Christian with societies that are predominantly Atheist, it should be apparent which produces the most compassion, good, and aesthetically pleasing way of life.

I agree with most of that, but when i went from a believer to a non-believer I was still every bit as fulfilled as before. Had no real impact on me.

And I believe you. But then again, all those who are 'believers' because they were taught to be aren't necessarily in a very real relationship with the Christ/God either. I suppose it is possible for those in such a relationship to reject that, but I don't know anybody who did.

I have friends, relatives, and colleagues who are Atheists whom I love dearly and who are the salt of the Earth as well as being good, funny, intelligent, and thoughtful people and most pleasant to be around. My comments are certainly no judgment or criticism of any individual. And also, nobody knows better than me that there are many who call themselves Christian who by no means conduct their lives in a Christian manner.

But you know, I can't imagine any of the youth or young adults involved in our Church being out there with the more destructive, violent OWS groups. I can't imagine them defecating on a police car or smashing store windows or threatening people just trying to get to work. I can't imagine anybody who has a relationship with Jesus Christ thinking that was okay. Of course most Atheists don't think it is okay either, but nevertheless, I am confident most of those people doing that are not people of a JudeoChristian faith.

And again, I don't know of a single thrift shop, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, orphanage, or any other ministry to the more helpless and hopeless that was started and is staffed and primarily funded by Atheists. All seem to be efforts of those of a JudeoChristian faith, sometimes the most fundie and narrow minded of those of JudeoChristian faith.

When we are looking for a safe and pleasing new neighborhood, we look for lots of traditional families and lots of churches. We know that there we will have mostly good neighbors and a safer, more aesthetically pleasing environment.

Too often when people look to government instead of God for their salvation, or think they don't need anybody but themselves, you get something closer to a Sodom and Gomorrah.

I can't imagine why an atheist would procliam his or her lack of faith when doing a charitable act. I do some (not enough) and I can assure you my lack of religion or lack of belief in a god never comes up.

 

[Foxfyre]

I agree with most of that, but when i went from a believer to a non-believer I was still every bit as fulfilled as before. Had no real impact on me.

And I believe you. But then again, all those who are 'believers' because they were taught to be aren't necessarily in a very real relationship with the Christ/God either. I suppose it is possible for those in such a relationship to reject that, but I don't know anybody who did.

I have friends, relatives, and colleagues who are Atheists whom I love dearly and who are the salt of the Earth as well as being good, funny, intelligent, and thoughtful people and most pleasant to be around. My comments are certainly no judgment or criticism of any individual. And also, nobody knows better than me that there are many who call themselves Christian who by no means conduct their lives in a Christian manner.

But you know, I can't imagine any of the youth or young adults involved in our Church being out there with the more destructive, violent OWS groups. I can't imagine them defecating on a police car or smashing store windows or threatening people just trying to get to work. I can't imagine anybody who has a relationship with Jesus Christ thinking that was okay. Of course most Atheists don't think it is okay either, but nevertheless, I am confident most of those people doing that are not people of a JudeoChristian faith.

And again, I don't know of a single thrift shop, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, orphanage, or any other ministry to the more helpless and hopeless that was started and is staffed and primarily funded by Atheists. All seem to be efforts of those of a JudeoChristian faith, sometimes the most fundie and narrow minded of those of JudeoChristian faith.

When we are looking for a safe and pleasing new neighborhood, we look for lots of traditional families and lots of churches. We know that there we will have mostly good neighbors and a safer, more aesthetically pleasing environment.

Too often when people look to government instead of God for their salvation, or think they don't need anybody but themselves, you get something closer to a Sodom and Gomorrah.

I can't imagine why an atheist would procliam his or her lack of faith when doing a charitable act. I do some (not enough) and I can assure you my lack of religion or lack of belief in a god never comes up.

I am not saying that Atheists are not charitable. All I am saying is that you can't find charitable organizations that were founded, funded, and are mostly staffed by Atheists. Atheism seems to result in a different kind of culture. Not necessarily a bad culture. Just a different one.

 

[Dr.Drock]

And I believe you. But then again, all those who are 'believers' because they were taught to be aren't necessarily in a very real relationship with the Christ/God either. I suppose it is possible for those in such a relationship to reject that, but I don't know anybody who did.

I have friends, relatives, and colleagues who are Atheists whom I love dearly and who are the salt of the Earth as well as being good, funny, intelligent, and thoughtful people and most pleasant to be around. My comments are certainly no judgment or criticism of any individual. And also, nobody knows better than me that there are many who call themselves Christian who by no means conduct their lives in a Christian manner.

But you know, I can't imagine any of the youth or young adults involved in our Church being out there with the more destructive, violent OWS groups. I can't imagine them defecating on a police car or smashing store windows or threatening people just trying to get to work. I can't imagine anybody who has a relationship with Jesus Christ thinking that was okay. Of course most Atheists don't think it is okay either, but nevertheless, I am confident most of those people doing that are not people of a JudeoChristian faith.

And again, I don't know of a single thrift shop, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, orphanage, or any other ministry to the more helpless and hopeless that was started and is staffed and primarily funded by Atheists. All seem to be efforts of those of a JudeoChristian faith, sometimes the most fundie and narrow minded of those of JudeoChristian faith.

When we are looking for a safe and pleasing new neighborhood, we look for lots of traditional families and lots of churches. We know that there we will have mostly good neighbors and a safer, more aesthetically pleasing environment.

Too often when people look to government instead of God for their salvation, or think they don't need anybody but themselves, you get something closer to a Sodom and Gomorrah.

I can't imagine why an atheist would procliam his or her lack of faith when doing a charitable act. I do some (not enough) and I can assure you my lack of religion or lack of belief in a god never comes up.

I am not saying that Atheists are not charitable. All I am saying is that you can't find charitable organizations that were founded, funded, and are mostly staffed by Atheists. Atheism seems to result in a different kind of culture. Not necessarily a bad culture. Just a different one.

Well of course they're going to be a small minority, as atheists are a small minority in this country.

I've known and know atheists and believers, haven't seen any difference in view on charity. Now of course atheists aren't going to give much to churches, and all giving to churches is deemed charitable.

 

[Foxfyre]

Nevertheless, I will continue to look for neighborhoods containing mostly traditional families of mostly JudeoChristian faith and lots of churches. I know such neighborhoods will be more gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, and safer than any other cultural environment in America. I think even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors would agree with that.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Nevertheless, I will continue to look for neighborhoods containing mostly traditional families of mostly JudeoChristian faith and lots of churches. I know such neighborhoods will be more gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, and safer than any other cultural environment in America. I think even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors would agree with that.

That's fine, as long as you aren't saying an atheist community can't be equally gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, safe, etc.


I've never been in a neighborhood that isn't mostly christian, certainly never been in an atheist neighborhood if such a thing exists in america so I can't make any real comparisons.

 

[Foxfyre]

Nevertheless, I will continue to look for neighborhoods containing mostly traditional families of mostly JudeoChristian faith and lots of churches. I know such neighborhoods will be more gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, and safer than any other cultural environment in America. I think even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors would agree with that.

That's fine, as long as you aren't saying an atheist community can't be equally gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, safe, etc.


I've never been in a neighborhood that isn't mostly christian, certainly never been in an atheist neighborhood if such a thing exists in america so I can't make any real comparisons.

I'm not saying they can't be. I am saying that so far they aren't. And yes, such a thing exists in America as well as in many other places in the world. And in world history no society that has tried to promote Atheism as the official status quo has been at all satisfactory or safe or aesthetically pleasing to much of anybody.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Nevertheless, I will continue to look for neighborhoods containing mostly traditional families of mostly JudeoChristian faith and lots of churches. I know such neighborhoods will be more gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, and safer than any other cultural environment in America. I think even my Buddhist and Muslim neighbors would agree with that.

That's fine, as long as you aren't saying an atheist community can't be equally gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, safe, etc.


I've never been in a neighborhood that isn't mostly christian, certainly never been in an atheist neighborhood if such a thing exists in america so I can't make any real comparisons.

I'm not saying they can't be. I am saying that so far they aren't. And yes, such a thing exists in America as well as in many other places in the world. And in world history no society that has tried to promote Atheism as the official status quo has been at all satisfactory or safe or aesthetically pleasing to much of anybody.

I'm not going to compare american neighborhoods to foreign neighborhoods from decades past. You can find undesireable neighborhoods of every religion and non-religious kinds of people.

If you can find an undesireable atheist neighborhood in america, and no undesireable christian neighborhoods in america I'll buy into this bigotted point of view. But not until facts coincide with it.

 

[Foxfyre]

That's fine, as long as you aren't saying an atheist community can't be equally gentle, charitable, compatible, friendly, aesthetically pleasing, safe, etc.


I've never been in a neighborhood that isn't mostly christian, certainly never been in an atheist neighborhood if such a thing exists in america so I can't make any real comparisons.

I'm not saying they can't be. I am saying that so far they aren't. And yes, such a thing exists in America as well as in many other places in the world. And in world history no society that has tried to promote Atheism as the official status quo has been at all satisfactory or safe or aesthetically pleasing to much of anybody.

I'm not going to compare american neighborhoods to foreign neighborhoods from decades past. You can find undesireable neighborhoods of every religion and non-religious kinds of people.

If you can find an undesireable atheist neighborhood in america, and no undesireable christian neighborhoods in america I'll buy into this bigotted point of view. But not until facts coincide with it.

Ah well, I must have hit a nerve since I am now pronounced a 'bigot'. It isn't bigotry my friend when it is based on real time experience. And don't you think refusing to believe something and calling it bigotry when one has not experienced it himself/herself is in itself a form of bigotry? I did not say there are no undesirable 'Christian' neighborhoods. But I have also lived a lot of places now and have not found ANY desirable neighborhoods that were not mostly traditional families and containing lots of churches.

 

[koshergrl]

Drock is big on proclaiming history "irrelevant". Particularly when it shows the depravity of the practices and ideology he holds dear.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There is no such thing as an atheist neighborhood, nor an atheist country. FF is trying to smear another large group and elevate her own without success. Secular states are neutral as regards religion.

 

[JoeB131]

Great! So that should be the end, should it not? Yet you still feel the need to call out those who still do believe and belittle their beliefs. Why is that if you're now 'enlightened' and at peace with yourself? Apparently you're not.

And if you fools kept your stupidity in your houses and churches, I'd have no problem with you.

When you come out in public with that silliness- expect to get mocked. Mercilessly.

Well, the problem here is that your mockery is meaningless to me, you just make a fool of yourself. But, as Marc said, you obviously have problems, so I will pray that you find healing. Compassion for others is a gift from God, and you need it in abundance.

Yeah, you and your beefcake gay avatar have been onhere for weeks now because the mockery is so meaningless to you.

People who really don't care- actually don't post.

The only thing that upsets you is that I probalby know your holy book better than you do and I can see the flaws.

 

[Dr.Drock]

I'm not saying they can't be. I am saying that so far they aren't. And yes, such a thing exists in America as well as in many other places in the world. And in world history no society that has tried to promote Atheism as the official status quo has been at all satisfactory or safe or aesthetically pleasing to much of anybody.

I'm not going to compare american neighborhoods to foreign neighborhoods from decades past. You can find undesireable neighborhoods of every religion and non-religious kinds of people.

If you can find an undesireable atheist neighborhood in america, and no undesireable christian neighborhoods in america I'll buy into this bigotted point of view. But not until facts coincide with it.

Ah well, I must have hit a nerve since I am now pronounced a 'bigot'. It isn't bigotry my friend when it is based on real time experience. And don't you think refusing to believe something and calling it bigotry when one has not experienced it himself/herself is in itself a form of bigotry? I did not say there are no undesirable 'Christian' neighborhoods. But I have also lived a lot of places now and have not found ANY desirable neighborhoods that were not mostly traditional families and containing lots of churches.

Maybe that was your plan, but i assure you no nerve was struck. The most offensive things about me personally could be said on this board and i'd shrug my shoulders, it's words on a computer screen from ppl I don't know.

However when someone repeatedly states one way or another that morally christians>atheists, then it's pretty clear that person is bigotted towards atheists.

Once I have the tiniest shred of evidence that american christian neighborhoods are superior in any way to american atheist neighborhoods (if such a thing exists, which I doubt) then I won't take your assessments seriously. I need facts, not opinions from someone who's very obviously biased.

 

[Newby]

And if you fools kept your stupidity in your houses and churches, I'd have no problem with you.

When you come out in public with that silliness- expect to get mocked. Mercilessly.

Well, the problem here is that your mockery is meaningless to me, you just make a fool of yourself. But, as Marc said, you obviously have problems, so I will pray that you find healing. Compassion for others is a gift from God, and you need it in abundance.

Yeah, you and your beefcake gay avatar have been onhere for weeks now because the mockery is so meaningless to you.

People who really don't care- actually don't post.

The only thing that upsets you is that I probalby know your holy book better than you do and I can see the flaws.

Just because I post doesn't mean that I am taking what you specifically say to heart, or that what you specifically say means anything to me. But, if you want to think that, by all means go for it. There are other people posting in here other than you, but I understand your ego is such that you think you're the center of attention here.

What makes you think you know the Bible better than I do? Because you pick out what you see holding up your idealogical point of view and then offer scathing review of them without really understanding the context or the time period? Okay... whatever you say there, Joe.

Oh, and your jealousy of my av is cute... Troy is the man, so I guess I can't blame you for that..

 

[Montrovant]

And I believe you. But then again, all those who are 'believers' because they were taught to be aren't necessarily in a very real relationship with the Christ/God either. I suppose it is possible for those in such a relationship to reject that, but I don't know anybody who did.

I have friends, relatives, and colleagues who are Atheists whom I love dearly and who are the salt of the Earth as well as being good, funny, intelligent, and thoughtful people and most pleasant to be around. My comments are certainly no judgment or criticism of any individual. And also, nobody knows better than me that there are many who call themselves Christian who by no means conduct their lives in a Christian manner.

But you know, I can't imagine any of the youth or young adults involved in our Church being out there with the more destructive, violent OWS groups. I can't imagine them defecating on a police car or smashing store windows or threatening people just trying to get to work. I can't imagine anybody who has a relationship with Jesus Christ thinking that was okay. Of course most Atheists don't think it is okay either, but nevertheless, I am confident most of those people doing that are not people of a JudeoChristian faith.

And again, I don't know of a single thrift shop, soup kitchen, homeless shelter, orphanage, or any other ministry to the more helpless and hopeless that was started and is staffed and primarily funded by Atheists. All seem to be efforts of those of a JudeoChristian faith, sometimes the most fundie and narrow minded of those of JudeoChristian faith.

When we are looking for a safe and pleasing new neighborhood, we look for lots of traditional families and lots of churches. We know that there we will have mostly good neighbors and a safer, more aesthetically pleasing environment.

Too often when people look to government instead of God for their salvation, or think they don't need anybody but themselves, you get something closer to a Sodom and Gomorrah.

I can't imagine why an atheist would procliam his or her lack of faith when doing a charitable act. I do some (not enough) and I can assure you my lack of religion or lack of belief in a god never comes up.

I am not saying that Atheists are not charitable. All I am saying is that you can't find charitable organizations that were founded, funded, and are mostly staffed by Atheists. Atheism seems to result in a different kind of culture. Not necessarily a bad culture. Just a different one.

Although there are exceptions, I think in general atheists do not group or form organizations based on their lack of belief. Sharing a belief seems much more likely to draw people together. So it's really not an apt comparison IMO.

 

[Foxfyre]

I'm not going to compare american neighborhoods to foreign neighborhoods from decades past. You can find undesireable neighborhoods of every religion and non-religious kinds of people.

If you can find an undesireable atheist neighborhood in america, and no undesireable christian neighborhoods in america I'll buy into this bigotted point of view. But not until facts coincide with it.

Ah well, I must have hit a nerve since I am now pronounced a 'bigot'. It isn't bigotry my friend when it is based on real time experience. And don't you think refusing to believe something and calling it bigotry when one has not experienced it himself/herself is in itself a form of bigotry? I did not say there are no undesirable 'Christian' neighborhoods. But I have also lived a lot of places now and have not found ANY desirable neighborhoods that were not mostly traditional families and containing lots of churches.

Maybe that was your plan, but i assure you no nerve was struck. The most offensive things about me personally could be said on this board and i'd shrug my shoulders, it's words on a computer screen from ppl I don't know.

However when someone repeatedly states one way or another that morally christians>atheists, then it's pretty clear that person is bigotted towards atheists.

Once I have the tiniest shred of evidence that american christian neighborhoods are superior in any way to american atheist neighborhoods (if such a thing exists, which I doubt) then I won't take your assessments seriously. I need facts, not opinions from someone who's very obviously biased.

Nonsense. If I say that brussel sprouts are healthier for you than candy corn, is that being bigoted against candy corn? If I say people who work and pay taxes are more beneficial to society than are the homeless, is that being bigoted against the homeless? Making reasonable value judgments based on verifiable criteria is not bigotry. It is simply stating fact.

It IS bigotry to call me bigoted when you don't know me or know what my experience or education has been. It would NOT be bigoted to show how my opinion is wrong using your own experience and verifiable data. Good luck on that since you have already stated you have no experience with a primarily non-Christian community and I'm pretty sure you can't come up with any data to dispute what I know my experience is.

 

[koshergrl]

I can't imagine why an atheist would procliam his or her lack of faith when doing a charitable act. I do some (not enough) and I can assure you my lack of religion or lack of belief in a god never comes up.

I am not saying that Atheists are not charitable. All I am saying is that you can't find charitable organizations that were founded, funded, and are mostly staffed by Atheists. Atheism seems to result in a different kind of culture. Not necessarily a bad culture. Just a different one.

Although there are exceptions, I think in general atheists do not group or form organizations based on their lack of belief. Sharing a belief seems much more likely to draw people together. So it's really not an apt comparison IMO.

I beg to differ...I think if you went door to door in the most criminal neighborhood in the country, and went door to door, you would find that very few of the residents adhere to Christianity.

Atheism is the prevalent "religion" of the American uneducated, economically challenged, criminal class.