Superior Culture?

[AllieBaba]

You do realize that Mrs. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been proven to be a lier and a fraud?

Mrs. Ali was kicked out of Holland when her story was found out to be a fake by the authorities.

She had made it up in order to recieve refugee status and enter Holland.

Actually, she lied to gain immunity and admitted it publicly. She used a false name because she was HIDING from Muslims who would have killed her for leaving her family and her husband.

She admitted this, then left Holland at the behest of those who were guarding her because when she lost her seat in Parliament she no longer would be provided with a body guard, and there was a price on her head. She had, with Theo Van Gogh, made the film 'Sumission" about the truth of the treatment of Muslim women. Van Gogh had already had this throat slit as he was riding his bike, and she expected the same.

Holland then told her if she would simply start using her correct last name she would gain back her citizenship, and she did.

Do you beat your children with electrical cords, as her mother did her? Have strange men attack and beat them?

 

[AllieBaba]

That it predates all three Judeo Christian religions. It's not part of religion. Not a religious ritual except for Jewish males, I don't know if Muslim men are required to be circumcised by Muslim law.

Circumcision of females is a TRIBAL custom that has nothing to do with Islam. It was incorporated into the Muslim religion and remains prevalent in many societies, and the imans refuse to speak out about it because anything that will secure the "purity" of those vile women is just a-ok for them.

They do it at any age, but not to my knowledge in infancy. Every case I've heard of the girls were around 4-10 years old, and it involved a group of people coming in, holding a child down and cutting off the inner labia and clitoris, or the whole shebang, without anesthesia, and then stitching it together leaving a small hole to pee through.

The boys are also circumcised, but as they are losing a lot less flesh and no stichting is involved, it isn't as traumatic, heals cleaner, is much quicker.

 

[catzmeow]

I've not a clue to 'who' decides, but myself. I'm for the civilization that allows for economic, social, personal growth. I'm for the system that pushes for education for all, regardless of class, sex, race or religion. I'm for the civilization that says a Jew, Black, Hispanic, White, Christian, Moslem what have you can rule. Which civilization/society comes most close?

I'm in agreement with the original post. I would say that the culture of the Dutch is superior to that of the fundamentalist Islamics who have migrated there and refuse to be educated, refuse to be tolerant, and refuse to participate in democracy.

 

[catzmeow]

What do those words superior or moral mean in relation to judging cultures?

Define your terms.

What makes a culture "superior"?

What makes a culture "moral"?

I realize that this is truly subjective. However, I judge those cultures to be superior which provide the greatest percentage of those who live in them with the freedoms to attain that which makes them happiest.

 

[mightypeon]

My opinion on the matter my not excalty be liberal but can be summed up like that:

1: Tolerance is important. If the ones who now whine about the historical decay of the Islamic world would pay more attention as to why this decay happened, they would come up with some interesting findings:
-At its peak, Muslim countries were, on average, more advanced than their European counterparts. In the middle ages, Paris was an ugly village compared to Baghdad.
-The Muslim state that had the most impact on Europe was the Ottoman Empire. It was also a state that was very tolerant religiosly and had absolutly no issues about copying or accepting other cultures.
In my opinion, the historical decay of the muslim world was caused by a lack of innovation, by a lack of tolerance and by a lack of progress. I can understand that a number of young idealistic muslims want to "bring the muslim world back to its place", I can understand that they become radical muslims because of that, however radical fundamentalism is the problem of the Muslim world, not its solution. I am German, over the last 500 years, religious wars damaged Germany at least as much as the middle east. Tolerance was a huge step ahead. If Europe would become Intolerant, it may end up in the same way as the late Ottoman Empire (well, we already have a huge paralysing beurocracy). Tolerance is a virtue that should not be forsaken without a good reason.

2: We should not tolerate those who dont tolerate us. Period.


3: Europe has a rich and proud history and culture, and the USA, well that would be the last nation to ever have problems with its self confidence. I do not believe that the culture which brought forth Van Gough will no be able to culturally assimilate some minorities. The US on that matter has the strange power to assimilate other people quickly, provided there is another group everyone (including the newcomers) discriminates against.

 

[editec]

I've not a clue to 'who' decides, but myself. I'm for the civilization that allows for economic, social, personal growth. I'm for the system that pushes for education for all, regardless of class, sex, race or religion. I'm for the civilization that says a Jew, Black, Hispanic, White, Christian, Moslem what have you can rule. Which civilization/society comes most close?

Perfectly resonable for you and I to think that those traits makes the best, most superior, the most moral culture, Annie.

After all those are lies we tell ourselves that we live up to which make us think our culture is superior to others.

But to someone from another culture, many of those ideas are simply ghastly.

Who are you or I to tell them they are wrong?

My point here isn't to get into a debate about why our culture is superior, so much as it is to explain to you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[editec]

I realize that this is truly subjective. However, I judge those cultures to be superior which provide the greatest percentage of those who live in them with the freedoms to attain that which makes them happiest.

Me too.

But as you and I both recognize, our choices are entirely subjective.

 

[editec]

2: We should not tolerate those who dont tolerate us. Period.

No, not period.

Those words suggest that we should do something ABOUT those who are intolerant of our way of life.

Tell me, what should we do?

Invade their countries and bomb them into becoming secular humanists?

 

[Annie]

Perfectly resonable for you and I to think that those traits makes the best, most superior, the most moral culture, Annie.

After all those are lies we tell ourselves that we live up to which make us think our culture is superior to others.

But to someone from another culture, many of those ideas are simply ghastly.

Who are you or I to tell them they are wrong?

My point here isn't to get into a debate about why our culture is superior, so much as it is to explain to you that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Here's the deal, if they disagree with those Western Values, they should not be migrating to Holland, US, UK, etc. Seriously, if they indeed find our values 'ghastly' as being tolerant of gays, etc., they should stay where they will not find those challenges.

BTW, I still think our culture is superior.

 

[Anguille]

Circumcision of females is a TRIBAL custom that has nothing to do with Islam.

Finally a bigot who is not afraid to be honest about the facts. You can't put an end to something if you won't look at it for what it is.

 

[Anguille]

I'm in agreement with the original post. I would say that the culture of the Dutch is superior to that of the fundamentalist Islamics who have migrated there and refuse to be educated, refuse to be tolerant, and refuse to participate in democracy.

Refuse to participate in democracy?
Talking out your ass again?
The Netherlands has elected and appointed several Muslim officials. How many here in the US?

 

[Anguille]

I realize that this is truly subjective. However, I judge those cultures to be superior which provide the greatest percentage of those who live in them with the freedoms to attain that which makes them happiest.

In other words, whatever culture makes me, Catzmyopia, fat, satisfied and happy.

 

[bigdaddygtr]

There's much I agree with, yet it seems a bit harsh. Interesting interview by James Taranto of Geert Wilders:

Geert Wilders: 'Our Culture Is Better' - WSJ.com

There is much you agree with? You know who also agreed you stupid bitch, Adolf Hitler. This article is disgusting and if you agree, you are as disgusting as it

 

[Sunni Man]

Finally a bigot who is not afraid to be honest about the facts. You can't put an end to something if you won't look at it for what it is.

Why should we want to put an end to it?

It's their culture, their society, and their ritual.

Who are we to tell them it's wrong or try to stop the practice?

 

[Anguille]

My opinion on the matter my not excalty be liberal but can be summed up like that:

1: Tolerance is important. If the ones who now whine about the historical decay of the Islamic world would pay more attention as to why this decay happened, they would come up with some interesting findings:
-At its peak, Muslim countries were, on average, more advanced than their European counterparts. In the middle ages, Paris was an ugly village compared to Baghdad.
-The Muslim state that had the most impact on Europe was the Ottoman Empire. It was also a state that was very tolerant religiosly and had absolutly no issues about copying or accepting other cultures.
In my opinion, the historical decay of the muslim world was caused by a lack of innovation, by a lack of tolerance and by a lack of progress. I can understand that a number of young idealistic muslims want to "bring the muslim world back to its place", I can understand that they become radical muslims because of that, however radical fundamentalism is the problem of the Muslim world, not its solution. I am German, over the last 500 years, religious wars damaged Germany at least as much as the middle east. Tolerance was a huge step ahead. If Europe would become Intolerant, it may end up in the same way as the late Ottoman Empire (well, we already have a huge paralysing beurocracy). Tolerance is a virtue that should not be forsaken without a good reason.

2: We should not tolerate those who dont tolerate us. Period.


3: Europe has a rich and proud history and culture, and the USA, well that would be the last nation to ever have problems with its self confidence. I do not believe that the culture which brought forth Van Gough will no be able to culturally assimilate some minorities. The US on that matter has the strange power to assimilate other people quickly, provided there is another group everyone (including the newcomers) discriminates against.

excellent post.

The culture which brought forth both of the Van Goghs seems to be doing quite well, though as a German, I'd guess you might have experienced some prejudice if you've ever been to the Netherlands. They can be very vocal about their bigotry, they just don't make it part of law because they know it leads nowhere good.

 

[Anguille]

Why should we want to put an end to it?

It's their culture, their society, and their ritual.

Who are we to tell them it's wrong or try to stop the practice?

It's not the culture of the little girls. It's the culture of some adults, but not all. Circumcision, particularly female circumcision and clitorectomy is already denounced within those countries. My Christian Ethiopian male friend is deeply ashamed of what had been done to the women in his family. He said most people his age, 35, were.
Grown women who want it done can do what they want.

Do you have children, Sunni, do you plan to have your daughers or sons circumsized?

 

[Sunni Man]

It's not the culture of the little girls. It's the culture of some adults, but not all. Circumcision, particularly female circumcision and clitorectomy is already denounced within those countries. My Christian Ethiopian male friend is deeply ashamed of what had been done to the women in his family. He said most people his age, 35, were.
Grown women who want it done can do what they want.

Do you have children, Sunni, do you plan to have your daughers or sons circumsized?

The sons have been circumcised. It is a mandatory religious requirement for boys.

In my wife's culture all girls have it done. I will leave it up to her to decide.

It's not legal here in the US.

So people who want it done have to travel back to their countries to have the procedure.

 

[Anguille]

The sons have been circumcised. It is a mandatory religious requirement for boys.

In my wife's culture all girls have it done. I will leave it up to her to decide.

It's not legal here in the US.

So people who want it done have to travel back to their countries to have the procedure.

So you would alow that to be done to your daughters? You would even take them to another country to have it done? That's pretty scary. I hope you daughters run away and seek asylum before that happens, if that's what you plan to do to them.

 

[mightypeon]

Well, the prejudice you expereince as a German in the Netherlands is actually fairly funny, we are the evil militaristic Bratwurst Destroyers and they are the guys who have a Dope-Propelled Airforce.
More of a soccer rivalry today. Besides, all European rivalries subside once you start bitching about America.
Incidently, the Dutch national soccer team wears orange, which is also what Trash removing services wear in Germany.
There are 2 and a half countries were one gets serious prejudice problems as a German, Israel, Poland and parts of the USA. With Israel and Poland one can expect what to get, in the USA its totally random. Everything from "Oh you are from Germany? I have German heritage!" (quite often) too "Ahhh, a fascist-communist-Nazi-Weasel!" (just once, and that guy was braindead)

Cheers,

Mightypeon

 

[mightypeon]

What to do with those who dont tolerate us?
Globally that is a damned good question.
I personally think that we should encourage contact and exchange. Call me overly optimistic, but at least against Moslem fundamentalism, I strongly belief that our "western" culture will eventually win. There where enough fundamentalistic societies in history, intracultural competition was not too kind to them.


If we are talking about immigrants, than I would strongly propose that immigrants who do no tolerate the dominant culture of their guest country immigrate somewhere else.