Supreme court rules..prayer at public meetings not a constitutional violation.

[nodoginnafight]

It's not my call about whether or not you are a good Christian.
The separation of Church and state IS what this thread is about.
And that is what I've been commenting on.
I'm sorry if you felt convicted. That was not my intention.

 

[koshergrl]

When you tell people that the state should prevent them from publicly owning their religion, based on your belief that good Christians hide to pray, then you are convicting them.

 

[Steven_R]

Which state function requires praying? Which part of praying requires the state?

 

[nodoginnafight]

When you tell people that the state should prevent them from publicly owning their religion, based on your belief that good Christians hide to pray, then you are convicting them.

Please show me where I said the state should prevent people from public owning their religion?

I never called anyone real Christians or fake Christians. I talked about real prayer v public performances.

I don't convict anyone - God produces conviction in people's hearts

It seems that in your zeal to argue - you made a few false assumptions.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

Told ya so:

"
The court, in a 5-to-4 ruling today, said those prayers don't violate the Constitution -- even if they routinely emphasize Christianity -- as long as there's no effort to proselytize or to denigrate non-Christians. Justice Anthony Kennedy said the prayers are ceremonial, and in keeping with the nation's traditions. He wrote that they are designed to "acknowledge religious leaders and the institutions they represent," and not to "exclude or coerce nonbelievers."

A sad day for the anti-Christian fascists indeed.

High court ruling favors prayer at council meeting - WTOP.com

I'm glad to see we haven't completely fallen off the cliff.

I see this as an opening to bring prayer back into every aspect of our lives: morning prayer at the beginning of school, graduation ceremonies, nativity scenes on the city hall lawns...EVERYTHING! We can tell the atheists and liberals to go pound sand on their way to Hell. Just like we've always said, nobody is being coerced into joining Christianity. Thank you SCOTUS!

 

[koshergrl]

I respect people's personal choice on that issue.

But the Hand of God has been so obvious and so powerful in my life, I couldn't deny Him if I wanted to.

In this country you aren't required to.

But I think the day is coming when that will change. The bible foretells it, and what I see confirms it.

The government cannot compel me to deny God.
They can punish me for refusing to deny Him. But they cannot make me deny Him.

I also believe that politicians have been ginning up fear for a long time. They create a fear ("they're attacking your religion") and then they present themselves as your protection. It's very persuasive to some people.

Removing Christianity from politics is not a threat to Christianity. It's protecting Christianity.

MHO

^^^That is a mistake.

We don't need to *remove Christianity from politics*. That was never the intent of the forefathers, and during our heyday Christianity was first and foremost in our rhetoric and our public lives.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

Public prayer is just performance art

I'm perfectly okay with a meaningless prayer in front of politicians, who generally are the most corrupt people around, that has no real substance to it beyond "let's try to get it right, you know, For The People, go us!" If that's the trade off to keep religion out of science classes, then I can live with this.

No! We claim the right to teach Creationism. We just won't coerce you to believe it.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

It's going to be a hoot watching the Christians flip out when someplace like Dearborn, Michigan starts opening their city counsel meetings with an appeal to Allah.

If the Dearborn councilmen start sawing off the heads of those not bowing down to their false god Allah, then that would be coercion and therefore illegal. Btw, if the Christians start sawing off heads, the same applies to them.

 

[RDD_1210]

I just wish I will be alive the day that people look back and laugh that "they once use to devote actually time out of their day to give thanks to an imaginary being in the sky"

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Christ showed everyone how his Father in Heaven liked to be prayed to...alone, in private...and not to ask for more than the birds have as a way to survive..

Your interpretation is irrelevant.

To you it probably is, even though it happens to be correct.

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Public prayer is just performance art

That pretty well sums up Religion in America actually.

I wonder if they know, according to Yeshua, that they've already received their reward for such "acts"?

Your biblical stylings are irrelevant to the topic.

The thread isn't about whether or not GOD desires Christians to pray at city council meetings.

This thread is about whether it's LEGAL to open city council meetings with prayer.

It is.

It's legal to do many thing but I doubt God is pleased about being classified as "ceremonial".

 

[koshergrl]

Christ showed everyone how his Father in Heaven liked to be prayed to...alone, in private...and not to ask for more than the birds have as a way to survive..

Your interpretation is irrelevant.

To you it probably is, even though it happens to be correct.

Fortunately, I'm not obliged to surrender to your beliefs. That's what freedom of religion means.

I get to pray in public, regardless of whether you think that's proper Christian etiquette or not. Because I don't answer to you.

And that includes at public meetings...including city council meetings.

 

[AvgGuyIA]

I respect people's personal choice on that issue.

But the Hand of God has been so obvious and so powerful in my life, I couldn't deny Him if I wanted to.

In this country you aren't required to.

But I think the day is coming when that will change. The bible foretells it, and what I see confirms it.

The government cannot compel me to deny God.
They can punish me for refusing to deny Him. But they cannot make me deny Him.

I also believe that politicians have been ginning up fear for a long time. They create a fear ("they're attacking your religion") and then they present themselves as your protection. It's very persuasive to some people.

Removing Christianity from politics is not a threat to Christianity. It's protecting Christianity.

MHO

Uh huh... and me removing money from your bank account isn't stealing.

 

[g5000]

"The unbelievers of [America] attack the Christians as their political opponents rather than as their religious adversaries; they hate the Christian religion as the opinion of a party much more than as an error of belief; and they reject the clergy less because they are the representatives of the Deity than because they are the allies of government.

"In [America], Christianity has been intimately united to the powers of the earth. Those powers are now in decay, and it is, as it were, buried under their ruins. The living body of religion has been bound down to the dead corpse of superannuated polity; cut but the bonds that restrain it, and it will rise once more. I do not know what could restore the Christian church of [America] to the energy of its earlier days; that power belongs to God alone; but it may be for human policy to leave to faith the full exercise of the strength which it still retains."

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Told ya so:

"
The court, in a 5-to-4 ruling today, said those prayers don't violate the Constitution -- even if they routinely emphasize Christianity -- as long as there's no effort to proselytize or to denigrate non-Christians. Justice Anthony Kennedy said the prayers are ceremonial, and in keeping with the nation's traditions. He wrote that they are designed to "acknowledge religious leaders and the institutions they represent," and not to "exclude or coerce nonbelievers."

A sad day for the anti-Christian fascists indeed.

High court ruling favors prayer at council meeting - WTOP.com

Tradition wins again, but hey, just keep praying to that God who is so "ceremonial" that he's not actually religion, just "tradition", and therefore allowed. I'm sure he appreciates the court's opinion of him, he doesn't really matter enough to bother with either way.

Tissue twat?

Not at all. Every time the court says "God" is simply a ceremonial reference, he becomes less important. Just another tradition, and you know what happens to them over time. Pretty soon God will be selling tennis shoes and tampons, and so goes God. Put his name on everything, invoke him at every turn, and soon, as the court just stated, he doesn't mean enough that others should even take offense. I suspect he thinks of himself as bit more important than that.

 

[koshergrl]

So you support our right to invoke God publicly.

Good.

 

[Howey]

Another thread I had a post removed from?

 

[PaintMyHouse]

Your interpretation is irrelevant.

To you it probably is, even though it happens to be correct.

Fortunately, I'm not obliged to surrender to your beliefs. That's what freedom of religion means.

I get to pray in public, regardless of whether you think that's proper Christian etiquette or not. Because I don't answer to you.

And that includes at public meetings...including city council meetings.

So do so. It happens to go against what your Lord specifically taught, you get your reward right then and there like the Pharisees, but knock yourself out.

Let's us quote Matthew 6:1-34

Giving to the Needy

1“Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

2“So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer

5“And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

9“This, then, is how you should pray:

“ ‘Our Father in heaven,

hallowed be your name,

10your kingdom come,

your will be done,

on earth as it is in heaven.

11Give us today our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts,

as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation,a

but deliver us from the evil one.b ’

14For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Fasting

16“When you fast, do not look somber as the hypocrites do, for they disfigure their faces to show others they are fasting. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 17But when you fast, put oil on your head and wash your face, 18so that it will not be obvious to others that you are fasting, but only to your Father, who is unseen; and your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Treasures in Heaven

19“Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

22“The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy,c your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eyes are unhealthy,d your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

24“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Do Not Worry

25“Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothes? 26Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? 27Can any one of you by worrying add a single hour to your lifee ?

28“And why do you worry about clothes? See how the flowers of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. 29Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 30If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you—you of little faith? 31So do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. 33But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

 

[MaxGrit]

Good decision.

 

[IlarMeilyr]

The majority (i.e., not the 4 usual suspect whack-a-doo liberal justices) got it right.

That prayer (like the ceremonial prayers to start sessions of Congress) does NOT mandate that anybody be a believer, it does not mandate any official religion nor does it prohibit anybody's free exercise of their own religions (or their own non-religious inclinations).

Clearly, it does not violate the First Amendment religion clauses, therefore.