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Nothing like thinking things through. Things like the idea that the answer to violence is ... more violence! ..
More dancing around the fact that you think America would be better off a gun-free society.
.
I am suspicious of anyone who does not think a gun free world would be a better place. No one is dancing around.
I think a tobacco free society would be great. I think an idiot-free society would be great. But since that isn't going to happen i accept where we are now. Ditto with guns. There will never be a gun free society. There will only be unarmed honest citizens and gov't or criminals with guns.
I am suspicious of anyone who does not think a gun free world would be a better place. No one is dancing around.
I think a tobacco free society would be great. I think an idiot-free society would be great. But since that isn't going to happen i accept where we are now. Ditto with guns. There will never be a gun free society. There will only be unarmed honest citizens and gov't or criminals with guns.
That works in many civilized countries.
How are they not a good tool for protection when there are no stats for how many times a person with a gun prevented a crime without firing the weapon?
One does not need to fire a weapon for it to be effective as protection.
This is probably as meaningless as any other stat but since you like them so much
Private Guns Stop Crime 2.5M Times A Year In US
And legislation does not make people responsible. It never has and it never will.
All the legislation in the world cannot prevent accidents.
No stats? We are the most armed society and one of the most violent. If arming people meant safety, shouldn't we be one of the least violent societies?
No stats he says. lol.
For No-staters, once again, see this chart. It says a lot about where we sit. I wish I could find a way to paste it into a post so it couldn't be conveniently ignored... but it's there for those with eyes to see.
Like South Africa and Mexico?
Fail.
Is it necessary to continually remind us how stupid you are?
I point out two countries that effectively outlaw private ownership of guns and yet have enormous rates of gun violence and I'm the stupid one?
No, junior. You've been pwned.
Feb. 23rd. An alleged robber is dead after breaking in to a house in Hickory, North Carolina.
Police received a call Saturday morning from a homeowner who said hed shot an intruder, and arrived to find both men still at the house. The homeowner is alive and lightly injured; the intruder was pronounced dead at the scene.
The survivor, identified as Paul Ohla, explained his side of the story to WBTV3: Guy kicked in the door, he came in and, ah, grabbed me and threw me down He kept beating me and I finally got a hold of my .38, and I shot him.
52-year-old Carl Perry, a neighbor, said he heard two or three shots, according to the Hickory Record.
Is it necessary to continually remind us how stupid you are?
I point out two countries that effectively outlaw private ownership of guns and yet have enormous rates of gun violence and I'm the stupid one?
No, junior. You've been pwned.
You pointed out the extremes on the negative side.
Today I was standing in front of my house talking to two policemen, marvelling at the fact that they were not carrying firearms. I could not help but think, yes, we are living in the right country.
Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of bullets
Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)
Myth #2: Guns don't kill peoplepeople kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more peoplewith guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...
Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.
Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...
Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0
Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.
Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.
For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...
Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.
In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.
A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.
Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...
Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)
Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...
Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...
Myth #10: We don't need more gun lawswe just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.
Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.
An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...
Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.
Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:
Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.
Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.
Classic, its start off by saying "They're coming for your guns" is false, and then goes on to list a bunch of bogus reason to support the gun-grabber agenda.
Nothing you listed is basis for overturning the second amendment.
Thx bye.
--- and if you actually read them, there is nothing in the link, or the OP, or in any of my posts anywhere, that suggests anything about gun grabbing, gun control, or the Second Amendment. Absolutely zero. What there is is a plugged-in assumption. I can't fathom what's so difficult about reading actual words on a page without plugging in others that are not there. This is Strawman writ large. Strawman is not debate; it's the opposite.
I opened this thread up last night around midnight and it's got 130 posts, so to me that's mission accomplished, since the mission was to open a dialogue about how we view these things; people are talking. Whether any of us are hearing is quite another hurdle, but it's not gonna happen if we plug in our own fantasies of "here's what you really mean". That's just perpetuating ignorance.
One other note about this conversation and the fear of having it: I've been negged three times (so far) just for starting this dialogue, i.e. for the thread itself. I would guess they're all from the " right" -- one of them (California Girl) I've never heard of or intetracted with at all and she's got her inbox turned off so I can't even ask what her basis was. Not one of these lifted a finger to come into the thread and debate a particular point; not one of them tried to refute any point in the neg; they just negged the whole thread. Rather than talk about how we view these things, some would rather they not be talked about at all, ever.
That brings up a larger question -- what kind of people is it that wants to shut down entire dialogue? What does it say when you'd rather tell (what you perceive to be) an opponent to STFU, rather than have the courage to actually engage in the conversation we obviously need to have? Is it insecurity, or just intellectual laziness? In one sense I see it as a manifestation of the raw emotion with which some approach this topic as if it's all they have. We can't make rational judgements out of emotion.
As I said to a poster last night, this list and the resources behind it were not done overnight; so it's not necessary to jump on it, positively or negatively in five minutes, without due diligence -- it's not a race. The message board isn't going anywhere, so let's take the time to talk and ponder what we're saying and why we're saying it. Lashing out with emotional outbursts is counterproductive and makes no point. When we construct our points rationally/calmly, we can finally stop wasting time on all that crap.
Nothing like thinking things through. Things like the idea that the answer to violence is ... more violence! ..
Strawman. Pro-gun law-abiding citizens use guns to prevent violence. If guns didn't exist, there would be more violence. Guns are the great neutralizer.
Since guns = violence, should police be disarmed?
.
I think a tobacco free society would be great. I think an idiot-free society would be great. But since that isn't going to happen i accept where we are now. Ditto with guns. There will never be a gun free society. There will only be unarmed honest citizens and gov't or criminals with guns.
That works in many civilized countries.
Please name a civilized country that is gun free.
That works in many civilized countries.
Please name a civilized country that is gun free.
Where did you say a gun free country? You are unable to remember from one minute to the next what you said.
Nothing like thinking things through. Things like the idea that the answer to violence is ... more violence! ..
Strawman. Pro-gun law-abiding citizens use guns to prevent violence. If guns didn't exist, there would be more violence. Guns are the great neutralizer.
Since guns = violence, should police be disarmed?
.
Ten Gun Myths Shot Down in a Hail of • • • bullets
• Myth #1: They're coming for your guns.
Fact-check: No one knows the exact number of guns in America, but it's clear there's no practical way to round them all up (never mind that no one in Washington is proposing this). Yet if you fantasize about rifle-toting citizens facing down the government, you'll rest easy knowing that America's roughly 80 million gun owners already have the feds and cops outgunned by a factor of around 79 to 1. (chart)
• Myth #2: Guns don't kill people—people kill people.
Fact-check: People with more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. The states with the highest gun ownership rates have a gun murder rate 114% higher than those with the lowest gun ownership rates...
Myth #3: An armed society is a polite society.
Fact-check: Drivers who carry guns are 44% more likely than unarmed drivers to make obscene gestures at other motorists, and 77% more likely to follow them aggressively.• Among Texans convicted of serious crimes, those with concealed-handgun licenses were sentenced for threatening someone with a firearm 4.8 times more than those without...• Myth #4: More good guys with guns can stop rampaging bad guys.
Fact-check: Mass shootings stopped by armed civilians in the past 30 years: 0• Chances that a shooting at an ER involves guns taken from guards: 1 in 5.• Myth #5: Keeping a gun at home makes you safer.
Fact-check: Owning a gun has been linked to higher risks of homicide, suicide, and accidental death by gun.• For every time a gun is used in self-defense in the home, there are 7 assaults or murders, 11 suicide attempts, and 4 accidents involving guns in or around a home...• Myth #6: Carrying a gun for self-defense makes you safer.
Fact-check: In 2011, nearly 10 times more people were shot and killed in arguments than by civilians trying to stop a crime.• In one survey, nearly 1% of Americans reported using guns to defend themselves or their property. However, a closer look at their claims found that more than 50% involved using guns in an aggressive manner, such as escalating an argument.• Myth #7: Guns make women safer.
• A Philadelphia study found that the odds of an assault victim being shot were 4.5 times greater if he carried a gun. His odds of being killed were 4.2 times greater.
Fact-check: In 2010, nearly 6 times more women were shot by husbands, boyfriends, and ex-partners than murdered by male strangers...
• Myth #8: "Vicious, violent video games" deserve more blame than guns.
Fact-check: So said NRA executive vice president Wayne LaPierre after Newtown. So what's up with Japan?
(chart/resource in link - wont behave here)
• Myth #9: More and more Americans are becoming gun owners.
Fact-check: More guns are being sold, but they're owned by a shrinking portion of the population...• Around 80% of gun owners are men. On average they own 7.9 guns each...• Myth #10: We don't need more gun laws—we just need to enforce the ones we have.
Fact-check: Weak laws and loopholes backed by the gun lobby make it easier to get guns illegally.• Around 40% of all legal gun sales involve private sellers and don't require background checks. 40% of prison inmates who used guns in their crimes got them this way.Links for substantiation of all points, charts, further point narratives at the article link here.
• An investigation found 62% of online gun sellers were willing to sell to buyers who said they couldn't pass a background check...
Here's one of them pertaining to Myth 2, particularly illustrative:
Also worth a look is this chart from one of the resources, listing the world's countries ranked by rate of gun ownership (i.e. how armed we are). Take a look at how far ahead we are.
Topic armed and dangerous, unlocked and loaded. Bring it on.
How can a correlation connection between the number of guns owned (and hence available) and the number of gun deaths be a shocking statistic to anyone?
Doesn't an increase in the number of skate boards correlate with the number of skate board injuries? Or cars with auto fatalities? Or bikes with bike injuries? Of course, actions CAN be taken to reduce the numbers of injuries and deaths related to ALL products. These include safety measures taken voluntarily or mandated by law. Do Americans chafe so much regarding safety laws regarding highway speed limits, or seat belts, or air bags, or drunk driving laws? No!
Then why is there all this resistance to reasonable gun laws like requiring mandatory background checks or limiting the number of rounds in ammo clips? Perhaps this has less to do with gun rights of gun owners than it has to do with the interests of gun manufacturers who are interested in selling as much (and as varied) gun products as they can dream up and churn out to anyone and everyone willing to pony up the money.
Please name a civilized country that is gun free.
Where did you say a gun free country? You are unable to remember from one minute to the next what you said.
Are you fucking stupid? Don't answer, we already know.
I wrote:
There will never be a gun free society.
And you responded that it works.
Now, if you mean only place with armed cops, soldiers and criminals. No, that doesn't work. Outside of Schindler's List, I mean.
I point out two countries that effectively outlaw private ownership of guns and yet have enormous rates of gun violence and I'm the stupid one?
No, junior. You've been pwned.
You pointed out the extremes on the negative side.
Today I was standing in front of my house talking to two policemen, marvelling at the fact that they were not carrying firearms. I could not help but think, yes, we are living in the right country.
That's good. And we feel that we are living in the right country. I don't see a problem.
You pointed out the extremes on the negative side.
Today I was standing in front of my house talking to two policemen, marvelling at the fact that they were not carrying firearms. I could not help but think, yes, we are living in the right country.
That's good. And we feel that we are living in the right country. I don't see a problem.
No problem. Would you not like to live in a country where the police do not have to carry firearms?
You pointed out the extremes on the negative side.
Today I was standing in front of my house talking to two policemen, marvelling at the fact that they were not carrying firearms. I could not help but think, yes, we are living in the right country.
That's good. And we feel that we are living in the right country. I don't see a problem.
No problem. Would you not like to live in a country where the police do not have to carry firearms?
Classic, its start off by saying "They're coming for your guns" is false, and then goes on to list a bunch of bogus reason to support the gun-grabber agenda.
Nothing you listed is basis for overturning the second amendment.
Thx bye.
--- and if you actually read them, there is nothing in the link, or the OP, or in any of my posts anywhere, that suggests anything about gun grabbing, gun control, or the Second Amendment. Absolutely zero. What there is is a plugged-in assumption. I can't fathom what's so difficult about reading actual words on a page without plugging in others that are not there. This is Strawman writ large. Strawman is not debate; it's the opposite.
I opened this thread up last night around midnight and it's got 130 posts, so to me that's mission accomplished, since the mission was to open a dialogue about how we view these things; people are talking. Whether any of us are hearing is quite another hurdle, but it's not gonna happen if we plug in our own fantasies of "here's what you really mean". That's just perpetuating ignorance.
One other note about this conversation and the fear of having it: I've been negged three times (so far) just for starting this dialogue, i.e. for the thread itself. I would guess they're all from the " right" -- one of them (California Girl) I've never heard of or intetracted with at all and she's got her inbox turned off so I can't even ask what her basis was. Not one of these lifted a finger to come into the thread and debate a particular point; not one of them tried to refute any point in the neg; they just negged the whole thread. Rather than talk about how we view these things, some would rather they not be talked about at all, ever.
That brings up a larger question -- what kind of people is it that wants to shut down entire dialogue? What does it say when you'd rather tell (what you perceive to be) an opponent to STFU, rather than have the courage to actually engage in the conversation we obviously need to have? Is it insecurity, or just intellectual laziness? In one sense I see it as a manifestation of the raw emotion with which some approach this topic as if it's all they have. We can't make rational judgements out of emotion.
As I said to a poster last night, this list and the resources behind it were not done overnight; so it's not necessary to jump on it, positively or negatively in five minutes, without due diligence -- it's not a race. The message board isn't going anywhere, so let's take the time to talk and ponder what we're saying and why we're saying it. Lashing out with emotional outbursts is counterproductive and makes no point. When we construct our points rationally/calmly, we can finally stop wasting time on all that crap.
I'm sorry to burst your ego, but the "dialogue" on this issue started long before your OP.
You're certainly not adding any genuine dialogue with sketchy statistics about gun ownership. I mean, what do they prove? That bad people with guns will do bad things? Wow, what a shocking revelation. Has it ever occurred to you that if you to want stop bad people from doing bad things with guns, you can lock up the bad people instead of everyone's guns? Do you have any statistics of how many violent offenders are repeat offenders? How many violent criminals are released back into the public only to commit crimes again?
But, liberals don't want to open that dialogue, they just want to talk about guns.
Where did you say a gun free country? You are unable to remember from one minute to the next what you said.
Are you fucking stupid? Don't answer, we already know.
I wrote:
There will never be a gun free society.
And you responded that it works.
Now, if you mean only place with armed cops, soldiers and criminals. No, that doesn't work. Outside of Schindler's List, I mean.
There will never be a gun free society. There will only be unarmed honest citizens and gov't or criminals with guns. This is what you described, and it is not a gun free country if the government have them.
That's good. And we feel that we are living in the right country. I don't see a problem.
No problem. Would you not like to live in a country where the police do not have to carry firearms?
Nope. I like the fact that the Cops are armed and I like the fact that I am armed at home and on occasion when I'm out and about. My wife keeps a compact 9mm in her purse always which I also like very much. It makes me feel very good about her safety. I'm not sure what country you are from but I am genuinely glad that you feel good about your homeland.
