Zone1 The Catholic Church is the most misunderstood/vilified "thing" in the world

[hadit]

Not how I see it. Take faith outside of religion. I have faith that by planning for eight hours of sleep each night, I will be well rested the next day. Having faith that eight hours of sleep will result in being well rested brings about nothing unless I actually get eight hours of sleep.

I have faith that if I plan twenty minutes for my drive to work, I will not be late. Having faith in that does not mean I will arrive to work on time by leaving ten minutes later.

In the same way having faith in the Ways Jesus taught does nothing to bring about righteousness if I don't live the Ways Jesus taught.

Faith is not pie-in-the-sky someday. It means trusting/having faith in Jesus' ways to walk, to live, to do all he commanded right now, because what one does results in righteousness.

It is true one must have faith before one acts. For example, I would have to have faith loving others and doing the will of the Father results in a righteous life before I devoted myself to living that kind of life.

If I can in any way earn my salvation, Jesus died for nothing. Do you see that? I have faith the Jesus paid the price and made the sacrifice for my sin, full stop. Because of that, I am commanded to do good works to show my faith, to demonstrate to the world that Jesus is for real.

 

[Meriweather]

No, I have no expectation that God is going to review all the sin I've committed. I do expect Him to see the blood of Christ covering me, signifying that HE has already paid my penalty.

Your worry was over penalties? Jesus taught us kingdom living and instead of throwing oneself into kingdom living right here, right now, the relief is about no future penalties?

 

[hadit]

You need to re-read what I said. Faith calls us to good works so that we might be justified/made righteous through this goodness. Do you have faith that by following the Ways Jesus commanded will result in righteousness? Do you whole-heartedly believe faith without good acts is dead and is no faith at all?

If that is so, how many good deeds must I do to be justified? On the contrary, I am already justified through Christ's sacrifice, and am commanded to do good deeds as long as I'm here on earth to share God's love with everyone else.

 

[hadit]

Your worry was over penalties? Jesus taught us kingdom living and instead of throwing oneself into kingdom living right here, right now, the relief is about no future penalties?

You're deliberately avoiding what I'm saying. We cannot enter kingdom living without faith. We cannot do anything that pleases God without faith. You should be VERY worried about penalties.

 

[Meriweather]

*** Sadly, I find it very difficult to believe in a God or an afterlife.

When I was way too young to know better, I put my heart into seeking God. Being successful in this (after about a decade), I wanted to learn more about God. One of the things these forums have taught me is that it seems learning about God very much gets in the way of (and sometimes blocks) one seeking God.

 

[hadit]

Repentance of (turning away from) sin is a much different prospect when standing before our Lord. He is not going to throw past transgressions back into our faces when we stand before him, for we have repented of them and changed our ways.

Do you truly see a person standing before the Lord, smugly believing Jesus is blind to all the wrongs one was doing up to the day of their death (and would have continued doing had not death stopped them), oblivious to these wrongful deeds because, after all, Jesus is supposed to be looking at his own blood?

And you are talking about someone who has not been transformed by the saving grace of Jesus but has been smugly thinking they can do as they please, even though they are supposed to be changed.

 

[Meriweather]

If I can in any way earn my salvation

If in any way you can earn the sun rising each day...

 

[hadit]

If in any way you can earn the sun rising each day...

Salvation is forced on no one. The sun rises over my location whether I want it to or not.

 

[Meriweather]

If that is so, how many good deeds must I do to be justified?

Why would you want to stop doing good? A good tree produces good fruit. Why would you even want to seek to become a bad tree that produces bad fruit?

 

[Meriweather]

You're deliberately avoiding what I'm saying. We cannot enter kingdom living without faith.

Perhaps you missed my point. Without faith I need eight hours of sleep to be well rested for the next day, I wouldn't get eight hours of sleep. Without faith that Jesus' Way of Salvation will lead to a better life, I wouldn't attempt it.

In other words, I don't have faith I can leap tall buildings with a single bound, so I don't try it. I do have faith that I can live the Commandments, the Beatitudes, turn away from sin, discern and follow the will of the Father (all these and more teachings of Jesus) into a better life right here and right now, so I entered the Way of Salvation, whose door is wide open.

 

[Meriweather]

And you are talking about someone who has not been transformed by the saving grace of Jesus but has been smugly thinking they can do as they please, even though they are supposed to be changed.

No, I am not talking about that. Listen up. All have been redeemed--by God through the acts of Jesus, and the Way of Salvation is open. The Way of Salvation is all Jesus taught--and Jesus did not teach smugness.

As Jesus noted, the Way of Salvation is the narrow way, where one chooses to do what pleases God--not what pleases self. If someone walks in the way of pleasing self, they missed the Way of Salvation. Ironically, walk in ways pleasing to God, ends up being pleasing to self as well. God knows us so well and what will bring us lasting joy.

 

[Meriweather]

Salvation is forced on no one. The sun rises over my location whether I want it to or not.

But like salvation, one can choose to hide from the sunrise. I find it is hard to do either, but find it easier to hide from the sunrise than to hide from salvation.

 

[1miseryindex]

If I can in any way earn my salvation, Jesus died for nothing.

Did some protesting pastor tell u that?

it sounds like some sermons I heard when I used to attend protestant services --Many moons ago.

And yes, you do, essentially, have to "earn" or rather Work your way to Heaven. That is because you are naturally a vile sinner and do not even (at all times) have a natural desire to go to Heaven. Heaven is HOLY... Life on Planet Earth is anything BUT that

 

[1miseryindex]

. All have been redeemed--

This is not true.

All have not been redeemed. All have the wherewithal to be redeemed, but that is not the same thing. One has to choose Christ... and then choose Him again and again as the days of their lives go by

 

[hadit]

Why would you want to stop doing good? A good tree produces good fruit. Why would you even want to seek to become a bad tree that produces bad fruit?

That doesn't answer the question. If doing good deeds is required to earn salvation, how many are required? This is why we don't do ANYTHING to earn salvation, as God said, so that no one can boast. "I'm holier than you because I do more good deeds than you do".

 

[hadit]

Did some protesting pastor tell u that?

No, common sense tells me that. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself for the sin of the world if people don't need it and can just do enough good things to force Him to let them in? The answer, of course, is that you simply can't.

it sounds like some sermons I heard when I used to attend protestant services --Many moons ago.

You should still be hearing them, if your preacher was preaching from the Word.

And yes, you do, essentially, have to "earn" or rather Work your way to Heaven. That is because you are naturally a vile sinner and do not even (at all times) have a natural desire to go to Heaven. Heaven is HOLY... Life on Planet Earth is anything BUT that

So then, how much do you have to do to earn your way into heaven?

1 Corinthians 3:

13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Looks to me like all those who call on Jesus' name and trust Him to save them will be there in heaven, some with great rewards and some with very little rewards, but there with all those who love God.

 

[hadit]

No, I am not talking about that. Listen up. All have been redeemed--by God through the acts of Jesus, and the Way of Salvation is open. The Way of Salvation is all Jesus taught--and Jesus did not teach smugness.

As Jesus noted, the Way of Salvation is the narrow way, where one chooses to do what pleases God--not what pleases self. If someone walks in the way of pleasing self, they missed the Way of Salvation. Ironically, walk in ways pleasing to God, ends up being pleasing to self as well. God knows us so well and what will bring us lasting joy.

Is it your position then that all are already saved? And you say works are required.

 

[1miseryindex]

No, common sense tells me that. Why would God need to sacrifice Himself for the sin of the world if people don't need it and can just do enough good things to force Him to let them in?

so you believe in the psgs that show one does indeed have to work to save himself... It is WORK to always accept Christ and HIs ways rather than our own. Tell me that does not go against human nature?!

Also, ditch the straw men already!

I never said what you claim I said. You are putting words in my mouth. but that figures...

Jesus said "If you love me you will keep my commandments"

The reason so many people end up in Hell (Jesus said this in so many words) is because people cherry pick and rationalize...

 

[Meriweather]

That doesn't answer the question. If doing good deeds is required to earn salvation, how many are required? This is why we don't do ANYTHING to earn salvation, as God said, so that no one can boast. "I'm holier than you because I do more good deeds than you do".

Once again, Can you earn the sunrise? No. But one can enjoy the sunrise by going outside at dawn opening one's eyes and studying it with keen observation.

In the same way, there is no "earning" of salvation. Simply enter into the Way of Salvation and enjoy the challenges being presented daily to you and tackling them rightly with goodness and love. If one is trying to tackle others' challenges, that may be a sign one is working for the "Holier Than Thou" medal. (By the way, it's made of tin. )

 

[Meriweather]

Is it your position then that all are already saved? And you say works are required.

I scoff at the word "saved". "Saved" for what? Most seem to equate it as a place in heaven. Salvation is so much richer. It's ongoing, back into our past, in our present, and forward into our future. No "once and done" for salvation.