The Dilemma Black Athletes Find Themselves In

[MaryL]

Yawn. I just stopped watching football. Fed up with wealthy prima donas preaching about inequality from their rich little pedestals. Shut the hell up and play, or switch jobs and become a social worker/ activist .

 

[Muhammed]

It really is a shame how so many have been brought up to be consumed by their skin color.

People deserve better than that.

One shining example of us having better than that was Cassius Clay, aka Muhammad Ali, one of the finest athletes in my recollection and a deservedly proud Black man. He was one of a kind and there never has been anyone, Black or White, who came close to his athletic achievement and his sense of dignity.

He was a loud-mouthed fool who never knew when to stop. Boxing OR talking. Mike Tyson would have eaten him for lunch.

You obviously know nothing about the sport.

And a draft dodger. Even if he went to jail "for his beliefs", he still dodged the draft.

So Ali didn't let the party of slavery's hero Lyndon Johnson make him a slave.

Would you?

 

[Wry Catcher]

And he
There is a difference between being a draft dodger and a concientous objector. Feel free to use Google.

There mostly certainly is and Ali (or Clay before he changed his name) was a draft dodger because he refused induction. Conscientious Objectors actually served in the military and in Vietnam and many received awards for valor. They refused to fight; not serve. Draft dodgers like Ali only served to give actual conscientious objectors shameful reputations as childish wimps.

Somehow the word "wimp" just doesn't fly as a description of ALI. Any man who could face
and defeat some of the bigges, meanest, hardest hitting humans on the planet is a hero
that demands respect just by the courage he showed. But to give up millions of dollars and a championship title you worked your whole life for to uphold a principle is so profound it
places Ali on a level with MLK and Malcolm X.
The greatness of that moment even overshadows his boxing prowess.

I never thought of anyone as being great for physically beating another for profit.

Seems to me the boxers are exploited by the promoters and fight fans.

ALI wasn't exploited...he opened up the door for fighters and even other sports figures to
Get paid millions instead of thousands of dollars. Ali was no fool.

Most pro boxers were exploited by their managers, trainers, sparring partners

During my career I supported the laws for 32 years for all comers equally, and believe every person is entitled to equal protection of the law. I believe taking discretion from the trier of facts by the Congress is inappropriate, and an overreach by the self righteous and Pols who value their job over the freedom of others.

One example of why - if it is still so - the the prosecution in unequal are the drug laws, the possession of Crack Cocaine visa a vis powdered cocaine and the possession of MJ.

In my first year as a deputy the laws on the possession of MJ were putting young, white college and University students in custody with "real criminals". No one cared until the sons and daughters of the affluent begin serving sentences with those they considered beneath them.

Within a year the penalty for possession of less than an ounce of MJ was changed by the State Legislature, and 1000 PC was passed. This Penal Code allowed for those with no prior record of arrests to be cited, not arrested, and to be given diversion not jail. After six months and good behavior, and completion a drug education class all records of the proceedings were vacated.

Yeah ... I have heard all the stories ... You and many others have made their case.
I am not saying anything is fair ... I am asking what we need to do about the laws?

If the legislature deems one drug is different than another ... Then that is the law.
If you think it disproportionately affects members of society based on race ... You could make that case.

But ... The law doesn't actually segregate the offenders.
The DA's office may ... The PD may ... The courts may ... In regards to the same law.

If kids smoking dope need to go to jail longer for dope ... Change the law.
If kids slinging crack don't need to go to jail for a long time ... Change the law.

Now if black kids smoking dope and white kids slinging crack aren't treated to the same sentencing structure ... Then address policing and prosecution.

.

It's not as simple as you choose to make it. To generalize: Black kids get a PD who may have a dozen or more cases pending; a white kid from my community will show up with a high priced attorney and a second chair; jurors make judgments on the appearance of defendants, and a 10% fee would be nothing to bail out someone in my neighborhood, but out of reach for kids in the same pickle from a poor community.

PO's make recommendations for and against probation, and the terms and conditions which the defendant must comply if granted probation. Factors of mitigation & aggravation determine the sentencing outcome, such as school attendance and deportment, employment and even attitude will influence the PO and thus the recommendation.

 

[Wry Catcher]

During my career I supported the laws for 32 years for all comers equally, and believe every person is entitled to equal protection of the law. I believe taking discretion from the trier of facts by the Congress is inappropriate, and an overreach by the self righteous and Pols who value their job over the freedom of others.

One example of why - if it is still so - the the prosecution in unequal are the drug laws, the possession of Crack Cocaine visa a vis powdered cocaine and the possession of MJ.

In my first year as a deputy the laws on the possession of MJ were putting young, white college and University students in custody with "real criminals". No one cared until the sons and daughters of the affluent begin serving sentences with those they considered beneath them.

Within a year the penalty for possession of less than an ounce of MJ was changed by the State Legislature, and 1000 PC was passed. This Penal Code allowed for those with no prior record of arrests to be cited, not arrested, and to be given diversion not jail. After six months and good behavior, and completion a drug education class all records of the proceedings were vacated.

Yeah ... I have heard all the stories ... You and many others have made their case.
I am not saying anything is fair ... I am asking what we need to do about the laws?

If the legislature deems one drug is different than another ... Then that is the law.
If you think it disproportionately affects members of society based on race ... You could make that case.

But ... The law doesn't actually segregate the offenders.
The DA's office may ... The PD may ... The courts may ... In regards to the same law.

If kids smoking dope need to go to jail longer for dope ... Change the law.
If kids slinging crack don't need to go to jail for a long time ... Change the law.

Now if black kids smoking dope and white kids slinging crack aren't treated to the same sentencing structure ... Then address policing and prosecution.

.

It's not as simple as you choose to make it. To generalize: Black kids get a PD who may have a dozen or more cases pending; a white kid from my community will show up with a high priced attorney and a second chair; jurors make judgments on the appearance of defendants, and a 10% fee would be nothing to bail out someone in my neighborhood, but out of reach for kids in the same pickle from a poor community.

PO's make recommendations for and against probation, and the terms and conditions which the defendant must comply if granted probation. Factors of mitigation & aggravation determine the sentencing outcome, such as school attendance and deportment, employment and even attitude will influence the PO and thus the recommendation.

 

[Muhammed]

It really is a shame how so many have been brought up to be consumed by their skin color.

People deserve better than that.

One shining example of us having better than that was Cassius Clay, aka Muhammad Ali, one of the finest athletes in my recollection and a deservedly proud Black man. He was one of a kind and there never has been anyone, Black or White, who came close to his athletic achievement and his sense of dignity.

He was a great fighter. But he was also a draft dodger.

So fucking what?

WTF is wrong with opposing slavery? ESPECIALLY when you are the one who is going to be the fucking slave!

WTF?

The Democratic Party (AKA Party of Slavery) should be dissolved and flushed down the toilet of history.

Why did you personally decide to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson?

 

[BlackSand]

It's not as simple as you choose to make it. To generalize: Black kids get a PD who may have a dozen or more cases pending; a white kid from my community will show up with a high priced attorney and a second chair; jurors make judgments on the appearance of defendants, and a 10% fee would be nothing to bail out someone in my neighborhood, but out of reach for kids in the same pickle from a poor community.

PO's make recommendations for and against probation, and the terms and conditions which the defendant must comply if granted probation. Factors of mitigation & aggravation determine the sentencing outcome, such as school attendance and deportment, employment and even attitude will influence the PO and thus the recommendation.

No ... I am not saying it is simple ... I am saying it doesn't make a difference to bitch about it.

Does that mean the white kid should seek a stupid cheap lawyer instead?
Do you think there should be a sliding scale for bail in accordance with zip code?
Do you think that no mitigating circumstances should be assessed?
Do you think that PO's shouldn't have the ability to use discretion in handling their charge?

I am not saying I don't understand your complaint.
If all you have to offer is telling more ways you think the system is screwed up ... It will never answer my questions.

I am not interested in how screwed up you think things are (useless) ... If we need to fix something, let's get to figuring out how to fix it.

.

 

[9thIDdoc]

It really is a shame how so many have been brought up to be consumed by their skin color.

People deserve better than that.

One shining example of us having better than that was Cassius Clay, aka Muhammad Ali, one of the finest athletes in my recollection and a deservedly proud Black man. He was one of a kind and there never has been anyone, Black or White, who came close to his athletic achievement and his sense of dignity.

He was a great fighter. But he was also a draft dodger.

So fucking what?

WTF is wrong with opposing slavery? ESPECIALLY when you are the one who is going to be the fucking slave!

WTF?

The Democratic Party (AKA Party of Slavery) should be dissolved and flushed down the toilet of history.

Why did you personally decide to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson?

I chose to honor my obligation as a citizen rather than prove myself a coward leech and ingrate like Ali.
Draft dodgers are scum undeserving of citizenship.

 

[Muhammed]

It really is a shame how so many have been brought up to be consumed by their skin color.

People deserve better than that.

One shining example of us having better than that was Cassius Clay, aka Muhammad Ali, one of the finest athletes in my recollection and a deservedly proud Black man. He was one of a kind and there never has been anyone, Black or White, who came close to his athletic achievement and his sense of dignity.

He was a great fighter. But he was also a draft dodger.

So fucking what?

WTF is wrong with opposing slavery? ESPECIALLY when you are the one who is going to be the fucking slave!

WTF?

The Democratic Party (AKA Party of Slavery) should be dissolved and flushed down the toilet of history.

Why did you personally decide to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson?

I chose to honor my obligation as a citizen rather than prove myself a coward leech and ingrate like Ali.
Draft dodgers are scum undeserving of citizenship.

Who told you that it was your obligation to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson? And why did you believe them?

 

[9thIDdoc]

It really is a shame how so many have been brought up to be consumed by their skin color.

People deserve better than that.

One shining example of us having better than that was Cassius Clay, aka Muhammad Ali, one of the finest athletes in my recollection and a deservedly proud Black man. He was one of a kind and there never has been anyone, Black or White, who came close to his athletic achievement and his sense of dignity.

He was a great fighter. But he was also a draft dodger.

So fucking what?

WTF is wrong with opposing slavery? ESPECIALLY when you are the one who is going to be the fucking slave!

WTF?

The Democratic Party (AKA Party of Slavery) should be dissolved and flushed down the toilet of history.

Why did you personally decide to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson?

I chose to honor my obligation as a citizen rather than prove myself a coward leech and ingrate like Ali.
Draft dodgers are scum undeserving of citizenship.

Who told you that it was your obligation to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson? And why did you believe them?

"Who told you that it was your obligation to become a slave to Lyndon Johnson? And why did you believe them?"

Who told you freedom is free? Who told you it was okay to accept the rights protections and benefits of being an American without giving something back?

 

[leftwinger]

When you arrive at Court, it don't help to have a massive list of "prior offenses" OK...KK

 

[MikeK]

Literally, Mike Tyson would have eaten him....starting at the ears.

The mistake Lennox Lewis made in his first fight with Tyson was sticking with his usual boxing style, which was a mixture of caution and aggression. But the aggression presented Tyson with an opportunity to exploit the only thing he really had going for him, which was brute punching power -- and he knocked Lewis out.

But Lewis got smart in the re-match. He listened to his coaches and copied Ali's style to the letter. He spent weeks practicing it, concentrating on avoidance of Tyson's only weapon, on tiring Tyson out, and striking only when a clear opportunity presented. And by copying Ali's style, "float like a butterfly . . . ," he ridiculed Tyson and kicked his ass. Just like Ali would have done.

 

[JoeMoma]

I would love to find myself in similar dilemma as the black athletes. Oppression has never been so liberating.

 

[JQPublic1]

And he
There is a difference between being a draft dodger and a concientous objector. Feel free to use Google.

There mostly certainly is and Ali (or Clay before he changed his name) was a draft dodger because he refused induction. Conscientious Objectors actually served in the military and in Vietnam and many received awards for valor. They refused to fight; not serve. Draft dodgers like Ali only served to give actual conscientious objectors shameful reputations as childish wimps.

Somehow the word "wimp" just doesn't fly as a description of ALI. Any man who could face
and defeat some of the bigges, meanest, hardest hitting humans on the planet is a hero
that demands respect just by the courage he showed. But to give up millions of dollars and a championship title you worked your whole life for to uphold a principle is so profound it
places Ali on a level with MLK and Malcolm X.
The greatness of that moment even overshadows his boxing prowess.

I never thought of anyone as being great for physically beating another for profit.

If you believe that you might as well go to the cemetery, jump in a hole and cover your self with dirt. America wouldn't exist without murder and forced servitude for profit. The comforts you surround yourself with came about because of that. So stop being so
disingenuous.

Strange response. You think people are great for physically beating others? And simply for sport?

Its a MAN thang toots. Men have lauded great warriors since ancient times. When two warriors face off to see who is physically dominant its a ritual that is as old as humanity. But even women fight each other for sport. You might detest it ...and thats ok...but I'll bet if you are a straight woman you'd love to be in the company of an alpha male who can handle himself in any situation.

 

[MikeK]

When you arrive at Court, it don't help to have a massive list of "prior offenses" OK...KK

You are quite right.

But there is another reason for the higher Black incarceration rate which is rarely ever discussed. The fact is the majority of Whites who are arrested, especially for drug offenses are employed, therefore will lose something important because of their conviction and placement on probation, which in itself is a substantive punishment for most non-violent offenses. But the vast majority of Blacks who are arrested are unemployed and have absolutely nothing to lose because of their run-in with the Law. So the only punishment available for a judge to impose is confinement.

This is why persons with money, White or Black, seldom are incarcerated. They have something to lose, money, which the court (and their lawyers) will take from them in the form of elaborate expenses and punitive fines in place of punitive confinement.

 

[JQPublic1]

When you arrive at Court, it don't help to have a massive list of "prior offenses" OK...KK

You are quite right.

But there is another reason for the higher Black incarceration rate which is rarely ever discussed. The fact is the majority of Whites who are arrested, especially for drug offenses are employed, therefore will lose something important because of their conviction and placement on probation, which in itself is a substantive punishment for most non-violent offenses. But the vast majority of Blacks who are arrested are unemployed and have absolutely nothing to lose because of their run-in with the Law. So the only punishment available for a judge to impose is confinement.

This is why persons with money, White or Black, seldom are incarcerated. They have something to lose, money, which the court (and their lawyers) will take from them in the form of elaborate expenses and punitive fines in place of punitive confinement.

Your assessment seems logical but there is a dearth of information on the employment status of arrestees. I'm wondering if you are assuming black arrestees are usually unemployed or do you have something to back that premise?

 

[JQPublic1]

Literally, Mike Tyson would have eaten him....starting at the ears.

The mistake Lennox Lewis made in his first fight with Tyson was sticking with his usual boxing style, which was a mixture of caution and aggression. But the aggression presented Tyson with an opportunity to exploit the only thing he really had going for him, which was brute punching power -- and he knocked Lewis out.

But Lewis got smart in the re-match. He listened to his coaches and copied Ali's style to the letter. He spent weeks practicing it, concentrating on avoidance of Tyson's only weapon, on tiring Tyson out, and striking only when a clear opportunity presented. And by copying Ali's style, "float like a butterfly . . . ," he ridiculed Tyson and kicked his ass. Just like Ali would have done.

The first meeting between Lewis and Tyson was a sparring session not a challenge for the championship. Lewis and Tyson only fought
once in a professional contest for the crown and Lewis won by TKO in the 8th round.

 

[sealybobo]

Nothing racist about expecting employees to do the job they are being paid to do.

And not embarrass their bosses. If I did it I'd be fired

 

[sealybobo]

I just heard what the inbred recessive McNair said in the NFL meeting about "inmates running the prison". Now some Black athletes have what I consider personal decisions to make. I wont look down on them if they continue to play but I will have mad respect for those that do walk away from this racist NFL owner. It made me think of a movie I saw a while ago with Cube in it. He has several scenes that sum up the different circumstances Blacks find themselves in regarding a choice between personal achievement and demanding racial respect.

NFL contracts should be year to year. You get $1 or 20 million for one or maybe two years but no more 5 year contracts. What if you suck two years from now? I don't have a 5 year deal at my work. No one does. NFL owners need to stop being stupid. Matthew Stanford s the highest paid player. How's that working out for us lions fans?

 

[MikeK]

[...]

In my first year as a deputy the laws on the possession of MJ were putting young, white college and University students in custody with "real criminals". No one cared until the sons and daughters of the affluent begin serving sentences with those they considered beneath them.

[...]

One very common, and wholly justifiable, reason why a White non-violent offender might receive probation rather than a prison sentence is quite simply the stark difference in the prison experience for a White compared with that of a Black inmate. Because Black inmates dominate the average prison cellblock or dormitory, in the majority of examples a White inmate will be subjected to everything from extortion and casual brutality to homosexual rape. Most (White) judges are aware of this and wherever possible will seek to justify imposing sentence alternatives for eligible White offenders.

 

[MikeK]

Your assessment seems logical but there is a dearth of information on the employment status of arrestees. I'm wondering if you are assuming black arrestees are usually unemployed or do you have something to back that premise?

There is no shortage of that information.

My reference is the New York State judicial system wherein a Probation Report is prepared (if not existing) and submitted for every convicted criminal defendant prior to sentencing. This report includes such information as verified employment status (if available). This information is provided to aid the sentencing judge's action.