The Homosexual Agenda, The aclu, And Your Children...

[AllieBaba]

I've met very, very few who weren't indignant and mouthy. It's the only way they can hide the shortage of facts in the long, boring tirades.

 

[Shogun]

And your desperation to instigate shit is obvious.

I notice you didn't answer my hypothetical about the christian missionary in a muslim land. Did you even read it?

Here, take your pick from the two who insist that victims share responsibility with their attackers for their own poor choices:

I suspect Matt Shepard went looking for rough trade, and found it.
One of the facts about homosexuality is that it involves throwing off various social restraints, starting with choice of sexual partner, but not ending there.
That's why a lot of people don't want to start treating it as just another "choice". Choose it, and all the other boundary-breaking behaviors that seem to go along with it, if you want to, but don't make us "celebrate" it.

I don't have the original articles I read this in, but I will try to find them. They pointed out that he went into a lowlife trailer-trash bar.
Now if this were true, why did he do that?
By the way, I absolutely would agree that propositioning rednecks does not deserve the death penalty -- or even a beating. His murderers should have been strapped in the electric chair and fried.
But if what I read was true, it tells you something about the derangement of at least a part of the "homosexual community".

Yes, no one is responsible for their own behavior, if they are a member of the Left's preferred victim classes.

To the Politically-Correct, the only behavior that is to be "judged" is anything that might injure the feelings of one of their favored client victim groups.
Here's a test: does someone have the right to say that he believes Negroes are genetically inferior to whites? Yes. Does a Black person who is offended by this have the right to kick the person who made this statement to death? No.
But the person with the racialist theories is still under an obligation to use his common sense. He should stay out of bars that are frequented by Black people, or, if he finds himself in one, he should keep his opinions to himself.
Does a male have the right to solicit a strange male for sex? Yes, provided he uses his common sense: put an ad in the appropriate newspaper; go to a gay bar. Or go to a place where the men are not guaranteed to be violently-inclined homophobes, and send out the usual signals.
Now, I don't know what that poor kid did. Maybe he was just thirsty and happened to see a bar and went in, and was recognized by one of the low-lifes there. In which case he was just a bit foolish.
But if he did go into a redneck bar looking for rough trade, then he was either suicidally-unwise, or driven by some sort of terrible and unnatural compulsion.
Perhaps he had been encouraged in this foolish behavior by the sort of "non-judgmental" folks who see all human behaviors as equally good, so long as they are challenging tradition or authority.
Anyway, back to Emmett Till. Have you considered that there is another aspect to this case?
I think there may be something to this conservative commentary on the case written some time ago but relevant to the issue of unwanted sexual advances made in public:

Suppose I walk into a certain lesbian bar in San Francisco, go up to the biggest bull-dyke I see, and then turn to and proposition her lover, telling her all she needs is a good **** from a real man.
Am I in any way, in any sense, responsible for what might then happen to me? (And for the sweet souls who think that I would only be firmly but gently escorted to the door ... God help you!)

++

Actually, having had the experience of being battered myself, also having the experience of working with battered women as a reporter, a volunteer, human services worker, and addictions counselor, I would say you're full of crap. I never said (in fact, I pretty much said exactly the opposite) that the poor kid was to blame for being killed. I said he made a bad choice. Which he did.

You're trying to read my mind. Jillian made the same mistake. I absolutely have sympathy for any victim of abuse, and certainly understand the semantics of abuse.
But I don't think being a victim PRECLUDES someone from making bad choices. Rather, bad choices can lead to victimization. Which is something we try to teach victims in counseling.

Lol. You're obviously a real sensitive guy.
BTW, I made a truckload of bad choices, or I wouldn't have been with the SOB to begin with. That's the point, Einstein.
nd Jillian isn't posting right now because she's busy sending me insulting private messages which are too juvenile for her to put up here.
Quite a cart and pony show.

AND, just to show you WHY you should read the fucking thread before trying to pounce on someone...

You're trying to read my mind. Jillian made the same mistake. I absolutely have sympathy for any victim of abuse, and certainly understand the semantics of abuse.
But I don't think being a victim PRECLUDES someone from making bad choices. Rather, bad choices can lead to victimization. Which is something we try to teach victims in counseling.

I love the tirade which then ends with the claim that Allie must have caused the "wrath of an abusive man", pretty much negates your entire rant.

I do not need to. The fact is that men and women batter spouses and significant others for reasons not related to being provoked. That is a medical fact.
As to whether or not it was this guys fault, you have one part right, it does not excuse what happened in the slightest, BUT it could be why it happened none the less.
Or do you routinely advice people to go to establishments that serve people that do not like the individual for what ever reason and BAIT the patrons? It is a valid question, what would happen if ,as asked already, a guy goes to a lesbian bar and baits them? Would you recommend that course of action?

Indeed, IM the one insisting that the victim (allie) CAUSED the wrath of an abusive man, arent I? It probably is NOT the case that I asked her what HER poor choices were that made her partly responsible for the violence by her attacker in accordance with the same logic SHE applied to shepherd.. At the same time, RGS, who is talking about UNPROVOKED AGGRESSION here? Certainly not Doug. Certainly not Allie. Certainly not me. But don't let reading the thread get into the way of knowing that. That IS the reason for pointing out BAD DECISIONS and the allusion to VICTIM RESPONSIBILITY, yes?



Make sure to tell me how justified are muslims who kill christian missionaries, dude..

and try reading the fucking thread next time.

 

[AllieBaba]

Bad choices can and do lead to victimization. That's not the same as saying he's to blame for being victimized.



What you're essentially saying, is a victim should never have to look back over their lives and say to themselves, "Now what can I do different to reduce my chance of having that happen again?" Why do you want to keep victims from learning how to look out for themselves????

But it's not laying blame, you nitwit.

 

[AllieBaba]

The fact remains, regardless of where you want to draw your lines of segregation, that being provoked is not an excuse for violent behaviour. Only liberals support the right of individuals to exercise their liberty to enter public places despite race? WE'll, you got me there!

Good grief, you act as if a white boy going into a latino area and having a latina girlfriend is a fucking capital crime! It's not. Nor is it a reason to excuse a violent reaction. Lessons in multiculturalism? Yea, that's a hellofa lesson as long as everyone stays in their own little area, eh?


Since you brought up christianity in Iraq...

Whose fault would it be if muslims killed a missionary in Iraq? The missionary for being stupid enough to enter the lions den or the iraqis for reacting violently towards being BAITED?


MY answer is the muslims. What's yours?

Why do you keep arguing a point that was never made?
THe person to blame is the person who commits the crime. As I've said about 500 times now.

This is the liberal blame game. You guys feel so guilty all the time, you get all wrapped up in it, and try to force others to jump in.

 

[Shogun]

Where did I say that? Please provide a link. (I think this is one of the examples of someone taking words and putting any meaning they want with them...because they think they know what you REALLY meant).
Once again, I never said, and never would say any victim shares responsibility. All I did was say he made a bad choice. Everyone makes bad choices.
I propose you get some help.
I also find it amusing that for two nights now, after I've posted off and on for hours and then finally turned off the computer, you allege that I'm no longer posting because I've been somehow defeated in some way. I understand how important this is to you, but honestly, I just go to bed. I'm not a meth freak, so I can't jitter over the computer 24-7, as some can.

See your quotes above. Bad choices ARE shared responsibility if you look to make excuses for criminal behaviour based on the actions of the victim.



Attribution of Blame toward Rape Victims.
Public reactions to rape affect victims in a variety of ways and have implications for psychological services and legal adjudication of rape defendants. To investigate reactions to rape, 144 undergraduates were randomly assigned to a 2 (male versus female subjects) x 2 (victim with versus without rape history) x 3 (high versus medium versus low level of victim provocation) between subject design. After reading a fictional police report that manipulated rape history and victim provocation, participants completed a nine-item Rape Questionnaire concerning perceptions of the victim and assailant. The results indicated sex by provocativeness interaction and main effects for all three independent variables. Subjects attributed increasing amounts of blame to the victim as her level of provocativeness intensified. Victims with a rape history were blamed more than were victims without a rape history. Subject sex was found to influence attributions of blame. Males, more than females, appeared to ascribe to victim's acceptance of blame in proportion to her degree of provocativeness prior to the attack. Females tended to be more empathic toward victims and more accusatory of the assailant than were males. Implications of these sex differences may be significant for the rape victim. To the extent that service providers of each gender differentially ascribe to views about rape, the victim may encounter more initial acceptance from females. (NB)
http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPorta...Search_SearchType_0=eric_accno&accno=ED279953


Women still held to blame for rape
Many people believe that flirting or wearing revealing clothes is an invitation to sexual predators
MORE than a third of people believe that a woman is totally or partially responsible for being raped if she has behaved in a flirtatious manner, a survey has found.

The poll of more than 1,000 men and women suggests that the vast strides towards equal rights for women in the public spheres of work, pay and reproductive health have not been matched by advances in the more private field of sexual behaviour.

Women’s rights groups said that they were astounded and saddened by the findings, which appear to reflect widespread misconceptions that women are sexually available and that some men simply cannot help themselves.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article592339.ece


Victim blaming
Victim blaming is holding the victims of a crime or an accident to be in whole or in part responsible for what has happened to them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victim_blaming


Blaming the Victim
Many of us heard from our parents, "Boys will be boys, so girls must take care"--the message being that we can avoid unwanted male attention if only we are careful enough. If anything goes wrong, it must be our fault. Blaming the victim releases the man who commits violence from the responsibility for what he has done. Friends or family may blame the victim in order to feel safe themselves: "She got raped because she walked alone after midnight. I'd never do that, so rape won't happen to me."

WOMEN ARE NOT GUILTY FOR VIOLENCE COMMITTED BY MEN ON OUR BODY, MIND, AND SPIRIT. THIS VIOLENCE HAPPENS BECAUSE OF MEN'S GREATER POWER AND THEIR MISUSE OF THAT POWER.
http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/viol_blame.html




Indeed, so what was Shepherds mistake? NOt living in the fucking closet like a good fag? What was Till's mistake? Being an uppity ****** and not knowing his place in the south? What was Allie's mistake? THAT was my point in asking her this question.



enjoy.

 

[Shogun]

And after it's all said and done, even after some moron queer hits on a bully in a straight bar and gets his ass beat to death, the queers still have an agenda, and things like the butt boy getting his head beat in just creates more fervor for them to push their sick agenda.

And nice going AllieBaba. You stood off the attacks and usual mouthy smart ass sass of four liberals beating up on you. It just goes to show, armed with sound reasoning and facts, an argument can never be lost, and that's why conservatives kick the shit out of liberals all the time in debates. Liberals argue their "feelings," while conservatives argue the "facts."

yea, Allie...

I'd take those laurals too from an obvious gay hating homophobe.
Be PROUD of your common brethren! It sure is true that it takes FEELINGS to hold criminal behaviour against the criminal and not the victim..

Hell, if this were a black man selling crack ole Cock Rider would have an entirely different take on making excuses for criminal behaviour..

The irony of his selective application probably isn't hilarious.

 

[Shogun]

Again, their whole argument is based on "feelings." No "facts." Just keep doing what you're doing. You're kicking their asses. I can see it, and so can everybody else. When they get all indignant and mouthy, they're losing, and that's what they're doing.

hehehe..

much in the same way ole fred phelps saw how tim mcveigh was changing the nation!

HAHAHAHA!

 

[Shogun]

I've met very, very few who weren't indignant and mouthy. It's the only way they can hide the shortage of facts in the long, boring tirades.

I can't help it if reading is painful for you. Some things are just not available in 12 page picture books that are easier for you to comprehend....


Indeed, were you talking about FACTS like your ADVOCATE example or like the Study the Jillian busted you for not comprehending?

 

[AllieBaba]

Do you do anything besides spend lots of time making imaginary arguments?

I'll say it again slowly. Being a victim does NOT preclude someone from making mistakes.
Making a mistake does not assign blame. Anyone who hangs out in a nasty bar with obnoxious drunks is making a bad choice. It doesn't mean they're to blame if something horrible happens to them. It just ups the chances that it will.

Do you understand yet? Is English not your first language?

And congrats. You are the 10 billionth liberal to rely on the old, "if they don't agree with you, call them racist, homophobic, or just accuse them of things they haven't done" tactic. But most do it better.

I especially like this:
"Bad choices ARE shared responsibility if you look to make excuses for criminal behaviour based on the actions of the victim."
That's what you believe, not me. And I wasn't looking to make excuses for criminal behavior, that's just something you have thrown in there because you think you can read people's minds. Never mind what the words mean...you know what I REALLY meant, right?

 

[Shogun]

Bad choices can and do lead to victimization. That's not the same as saying he's to blame for being victimized.



What you're essentially saying, is a victim should never have to look back over their lives and say to themselves, "Now what can I do different to reduce my chance of having that happen again?" Why do you want to keep victims from learning how to look out for themselves????

But it's not laying blame, you nitwit.

HA!

oooook. Just like telling a rape victim that she should have made a better choice about evening wear is also not blaming the victim.


Are you having another moment of jargon denial? This concept isn't new and it certainly isn't something that you can generalize as a liberal opinion.

YES, matt shepherd should ahve been able to leave the bar, escorted out my the manager or not, without having to wonder if his LIFE will end because of his benign actions in this free country.

YES, Emmet Till should not have had to lower his eyes and not look at, or whistle to, a white woman just because the south was a bastion of racists.

YES, you should not ahve to pick apart your own behaviour when trying to understand why YOUR ABUSER reacted violently.

YES, a woman can wear the sluttiest, most whorish attire she has smack dab in the middle of cat calling construction workers who havent been laid in ten years without having to worry about provoking rape.

YES, a christian missionary SHOULD be able to spread his opinion on dogma without having to fear that doing such will cause a muslim to decapitate him...


However, Im betting jacks, joes and domineos that the only one that you, Doug, RGS or cock rider agrees with is the last one...

 

[Shogun]

Why do you keep arguing a point that was never made?
THe person to blame is the person who commits the crime. As I've said about 500 times now.

This is the liberal blame game. You guys feel so guilty all the time, you get all wrapped up in it, and try to force others to jump in.

Hey, I posted your quotes like you asked.


I guess if you can deny the concept of ethnocentrism then this should be a piece of cake.

 

[Shogun]

Do you do anything besides spend lots of time making imaginary arguments?

I'll say it again slowly. Being a victim does NOT preclude someone from making mistakes.
Making a mistake does not assign blame. Anyone who hangs out in a nasty bar with obnoxious drunks is making a bad choice. It doesn't mean they're to blame if something horrible happens to them. It just ups the chances that it will.

Do you understand yet? Is English not your first language?

hehehe.. yea.. I guess it's easy to belive that since Im betting you skipped right over the numerous evidence I've posted which defines your exact behaviour as blaming the victim.

suuuure... Tell me what kind of a MISTAKE it was to whistle at a whte woman... blowing kisses at a redneck... and letting christians have missions in muslim nations...

After all.. if you can understand their criminal REACTION to a particular stimuli then, certainly, you, uh, are not validating said reaction... Because OBVIOUSLY the victim could have just made better choices! Wore a prudish dress! Looked at the ground in the presence of a white woman like a good BOY. You know.. Have that dinner on the table, hot and tasty, at the correct time....

 

[AllieBaba]

hehehe.. yea.. I guess it's easy to belive that since Im betting you skipped right over the numerous evidence I've posted which defines your exact behaviour as blaming the victim.

suuuure... Tell me what kind of a MISTAKE it was to whistle at a whte woman... blowing kisses at a redneck... and letting christians have missions in muslim nations...

After all.. if you can understand their criminal REACTION to a particular stimuli then, certainly, you, uh, are not validating said reaction... Because OBVIOUSLY the victim could have just made better choices! Wore a prudish dress! Looked at the ground in the presence of a white woman like a good BOY. You know.. Have that dinner on the table, hot and tasty, at the correct time....

You're deluded, friend. And it's a shame.

I'll bet you don't vote. Do you?
I'll also bet you're a felon.

That's my evidence that you're a pontificating blabbermouth. It's along the same lines as your own "evidence". Actually, I think it's more accurate, and much more factual.

 

[roomy]

Well, well, well, I find myself in almost total agreement with shogun, something I thought impossible, yes, I am waiting for a pig to fly past the window.My only criticism is his deliberate confusion of the statements of other posters in the thread, but I am not about to quibble.

 

[AllieBaba]

You think recognizing poor choices is the same as blaming a victim for his murder?

That sort of leaves out any safety plan for survivors, don't you think?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

NO ONE has claimed ( well maybe the racist Pale Rider) that the murderers were justified, their crimes lessened by, or that it excuses their actions any, by noting poor choices by people ( and we do mean poor, not accidental).

As to the Christian in Muslim lands.... umm ya it would be their fault in a lot of them since they live or went to a country that gives them less rights, less legal rights, less legal protection. Now the people that live there have little choice, but I bet you dollars to donuts that the people living in those countries know full well not to provoke an incident, no matter how right they may be. Any Christian that preaches the faith in those kind of places should know they place their life in peril. No it does not excuse the murder of them by Muslims, it does though reflect on poor choices.

I tell ya what Shogun, assuming your white, go to an all black run down section of some city infested with gangs, and then start telling people your rights to be there. Be sure to have a lot of money and flash it around and wear expensive jewelry. Hey wait a minute, do that in any neighborhood controlled by gangs no matter the color of their skin. Do it on bums row.

Go to Central Park in New York City in the middle of the night and wander through all the dark unlit sections, it is after all your right to be there isn't it? Again flash your money and wear lots of expensive looking jewelry and clothing.

Exersize your rights and then if your still alive let us know how well that worked out.

 

[AllieBaba]

Provided the halfway house he lives in will allow him to stray so far.

 

[Shogun]

You're deluded, friend. And it's a shame.

I'll bet you don't vote. Do you?
I'll also bet you're a felon.

That's my evidence that you're a pontificating blabbermouth. It's along the same lines as your own "evidence". Actually, I think it's more accurate, and much more factual.

I guess it's a good thing you are not the voice at the end of any psychic hotlines. If those guesses convey your ability as a cognitive creature then I feel sorry for whoever gets to dress and feed you.

THATS your 'evidence"? I guess it's no real shocker why you reject concepts like ethnocentrism.

ps, what you THINK and what is truth seems to be leagues apart. Perhaps you should practice reading this weekend.. you know, start with a little nancy drew and work your way up to books with more words than pictures?


Indeed, I would ask you to explain how you've come to the determination that I don't vote (despite posting on a politics messageboard) and am a felon...

....but that would probably take more of your fuzzy logic and half-understood jargon so...


If you don't like it when your words come back and bite you in the ass then perhaps you shouldn't ask for evidence.... 'cause, unlike you, I have no problem backing up my assertions with more than half assed googled letters to the Advocate and misunderstood studies.

 

[Doug]

Let me see if I understand Shogun's position.

I think part of the confusion here is that Shogun, like other liberals, believes that no form of consensual behavior is in any sense to be criticized, judged, etc. If it feels good, do it, so long as it's between consenting adults.

Some of us don't agree with that. But that is really a separate (though related) issue from: what should our attitude be to people who have bad things happen to them, where they were doing something that they knew might evoke those bad things?

We have a few words available to us: "blame", "responsibility", "fault" .. but these carry all sorts of other connotations, so I would like to see if we can agree on anything without using these words at all.

Suppose a friend of yours tells you he (or she) is going to try to climb Mount Everest, without extra oxygen. (It can be done, but the death rate is not low.) They have a family, and children.

They are a good person. But they have this very strong compulsion to climb Mount Everest. Perhaps they hope to write a book about it, and project themselves into the public eye. They know the dangers.

In the course of their attempt, they die ... say from an avalanche. They leave behind grieving children, now deprived of a parent.

At the same time, another friend of yours, also with children, is killed in an automobile accident that is entirely caused by the carelessness of the other driver.

Now, do you feel in any way different about these two people? Is your grief and sadness about the death of the first person -- the Everest climber -- mixed, in any way, with some other feeling which is not present toward the second person?

If so, could you explain what that extra feeling, or thought, is?

This thought experiment is directed towards Shogun in particular, but everyone else is invited to respond.

Once we have determined this, we can carry on, and replace melting piles of avalanche-prone snow as the immediate cause of death, with human beings.

 

[Shogun]

You think recognizing poor choices is the same as blaming a victim for his murder?

That sort of leaves out any safety plan for survivors, don't you think?

Then, praytell..


What exactly would you say to a rape victim coneying your point? Le'ts see you spell it out. Pretend RGS is a rape victim after wearing an ultra slutty whorish outfit and going out drinking and got raped and show me how you would tell a VICTIM about their POOR CHOICES.

Again, I hope you are not a councellor.


and no. there is about as much safety plan for predicting rape as there is predicting wich house gets robbed. But, I guess anyone who moved in to a crime ridden area just made their own mistake... right?


Why won't you tell me how christian missionaries could avoid being killed by muslims by just making better choices, allie?


HMMMM?