The Homosexual Dilemma

[Seawytch]

Oh I certainly chose to have sex with women- I chose to marry a woman- but I never, ever chose to be attracted to women.

IF you can choose to be attracted to women- then you should be able to chose to be attracted to men.

If you find the idea of a stubbly male face kissing your lips repugnant- like I do- then your attraction is not a choice.

I choose not to be attracted to men.

I find a lot of things repugnant. Does that mean it isn't a choice on those either?

Then you are probably bisexual.

As a heterosexual I can say with great certainty- I do not find men sexually attractive- and cannot chose to find them sexually attractive.

I like Jennifer Anniston and Holly Hunter and Jessica Alba- not Brad Pitt or George Clooney.

If you think you could chose to be turned on by a photo of Clooney in a bathing suit- then you are probably bisexual.

I could choose to be a criminal. Does that make me one?

I don't find men sexually attractive either because I choose not to.

You can't choose your attraction, only whether to act on them or not. If you are not attracted to men, you can't make yourself attracted to men, trust me on this. (It's why reparative "therapy" has such a high failure rate)

It would be interesting to know what other psychiatric problems have a "high failure rate" and if we simply gave up because of it.

Did you ever stop to think that this "high failure rate" is because we haven't been been trying reparative therapy that long?

No. We know why reparative therapy has a high failure rate. It doesn't work. Heck, it not only doesn't work, it is universally panned by the scientific community.

Organizational Positions on Reparative Therapy

American Academy of Pediatrics

"Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
Homosexuality and Adolescence, Pediatrics.

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy

"The American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy takes the position that same sex orientation is not a mental disorder. Therefore, we do not believe that sexual orientation in and of itself requires treatment or intervention."
Statement on Nonpathologizing Sexual Orientation.

American Counseling Association

"The American Counseling Association opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based on ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender sexual orientation."
Resolution, as reported in the American Psychological Association's publication, "Just the Facts about Sexual Orientation and Youth."

American Medical Association

"Our AMA… opposes, the use of 'reparative' or 'conversion' therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation."
H-160.991, Health Care Needs of the Homosexual Population.

American Psychiatric Association

"Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or 'repair' homosexuality are based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of "cures" are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last four decades, "reparative" therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.

The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.

Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation."
Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies).

American Psychoanalytic Association

"Same-gender sexual orientation cannot be assumed to represent a deficit in personality development or the expression of psychopathology. As with any societal prejudice, anti-homosexual bias negatively affects mental health, contributing to an enduring sense of stigma and pervasive self-criticism in people of same-gender sexual orientation through the internalization of such prejudice.

As in all psychoanalytic treatments, the goal of analysis with homosexual patients is understanding. Psychoanalytic technique does not encompass purposeful efforts to "convert" or "repair" an individual's sexual orientation. Such directed efforts are against fundamental principles of psychoanalytic treatment and often result in substantial psychological pain by reinforcing damaging internalized homophobic attitudes."
Position Statement on Reparative Therapy.

American Psychological Association

"THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association affirms that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality regardless of sexual orientation identity;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association reaffirms its position that homosexuality per se is not a mental disorder and opposes portrayals of sexual minority youths and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association concludes that there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association encourages mental health professionals to avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts by promoting or promising change in sexual orientation when providing assistance to individuals distressed by their own or others' sexual orientation…"
Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts.

American School Counselor Association

"Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered and questioning (LGBTQ) youth often begin to experience self-identification during their pre-adolescent or adolescent years, as do heterosexual youth. These developmental processes are essential cognitive, emotional and social activities, and although they may have an impact on student development and achievement, they are not a sign of illness, mental disorder or emotional problems nor do they necessarily signify sexual activity.

The professional school counselor works with all students through the stages of identity development and understands this development may be more difficult for LGBTQ youth. It is not the role of the professional school counselor to attempt to change a student's sexual orientation/gender identity but instead to provide support to LGBTQ students to promote student achievement and personal well-being."
The Professional School Counselor and LGBTQ Youth.

National Association of Social Workers

"People seek mental health services for many reasons. Accordingly, it is fair to assert that lesbians and gay men seek therapy for the same reasons that heterosexual people do. However, the increase in media campaigns, often coupled with coercive messages from family and community members, has created an environment in which lesbians and gay men often are pressured to seek reparative or conversion therapies, which cannot and will not change sexual orientation. Aligned with the American Psychological Association's (1997) position, NCLGB [NASW's National Committee on Lesbian and Gay Issues] believes that such treatment potentially can lead to severe emotional damage. Specifically, transformational ministries are fueled by stigmatization of lesbians and gay men, which in turn produces the social climate that pressures some people to seek change in sexual orientation. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful."
Position Statement, "Reparative" and "Conversion" Therapies.

Pan American Health Organization (PAHO): Regional Office of the World Health Organization

Services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientation lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) said in a position statement launched on 17 May, 2012, the International Day against Homophobia. The statement calls on governments, academic institutions, professional associations and the media to expose these practices and to promote respect for diversity.

Statement, "Therapies" to change sexual orientation lack medical justification and threaten health

I mean fuck, we have been trying to cure cancer, diabetes, and heart disease forever.

Maybe you think we should stop trying?

Mark

Gay isn't a disease to be cured.

 

[Conservative65]

I choose not to be attracted to men.

I find a lot of things repugnant. Does that mean it isn't a choice on those either?

Then you are probably bisexual.

As a heterosexual I can say with great certainty- I do not find men sexually attractive- and cannot chose to find them sexually attractive.

I like Jennifer Anniston and Holly Hunter and Jessica Alba- not Brad Pitt or George Clooney.

If you think you could chose to be turned on by a photo of Clooney in a bathing suit- then you are probably bisexual.

I could choose to be a criminal. Does that make me one?

I don't find men sexually attractive either because I choose not to.

You can't choose your attraction, only whether to act on them or not. If you are not attracted to men, you can't make yourself attracted to men, trust me on this. (It's why reparative "therapy" has such a high failure rate)

It would be interesting to know what other psychiatric problems have a "high failure rate" and if we simply gave up because of it.

Did you ever stop to think that this "high failure rate" is because we haven't been been trying reparative therapy that long?

No. We know why reparative therapy has a high failure rate. It doesn't work. Heck, it not only doesn't work, it is universally panned by the scientific community.

Organizational Positions on Reparative Therapy

American Academy of Pediatrics

"Confusion about sexual orientation is not unusual during adolescence. Counseling may be helpful for young people who are uncertain about their sexual orientation or for those who are uncertain about how to express their sexuality and might profit from an attempt at clarification through a counseling or psychotherapeutic initiative. Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."
Homosexuality and Adolescence, Pediatrics.

American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy

"The American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy takes the position that same sex orientation is not a mental disorder. Therefore, we do not believe that sexual orientation in and of itself requires treatment or intervention."
Statement on Nonpathologizing Sexual Orientation.

American Counseling Association

"The American Counseling Association opposes portrayals of lesbian, gay, and bisexual youth and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation; and supports the dissemination of accurate information about sexual orientation, mental health, and appropriate interventions in order to counteract bias that is based on ignorance or unfounded beliefs about same-gender sexual orientation."
Resolution, as reported in the American Psychological Association's publication, "Just the Facts about Sexual Orientation and Youth."

American Medical Association

"Our AMA… opposes, the use of 'reparative' or 'conversion' therapy that is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation."
H-160.991, Health Care Needs of the Homosexual Population.

American Psychiatric Association

"Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or 'repair' homosexuality are based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of "cures" are counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last four decades, "reparative" therapists have not produced any rigorous scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there is such research available, [the American Psychiatric Association] recommends that ethical practitioners refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation, keeping in mind the medical dictum to first, do no harm.

The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed.

Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation."
Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies).

American Psychoanalytic Association

"Same-gender sexual orientation cannot be assumed to represent a deficit in personality development or the expression of psychopathology. As with any societal prejudice, anti-homosexual bias negatively affects mental health, contributing to an enduring sense of stigma and pervasive self-criticism in people of same-gender sexual orientation through the internalization of such prejudice.

As in all psychoanalytic treatments, the goal of analysis with homosexual patients is understanding. Psychoanalytic technique does not encompass purposeful efforts to "convert" or "repair" an individual's sexual orientation. Such directed efforts are against fundamental principles of psychoanalytic treatment and often result in substantial psychological pain by reinforcing damaging internalized homophobic attitudes."
Position Statement on Reparative Therapy.

American Psychological Association

"THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association affirms that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are normal and positive variations of human sexuality regardless of sexual orientation identity;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association reaffirms its position that homosexuality per se is not a mental disorder and opposes portrayals of sexual minority youths and adults as mentally ill due to their sexual orientation;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association concludes that there is insufficient evidence to support the use of psychological interventions to change sexual orientation;

BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED, That the American Psychological Association encourages mental health professionals to avoid misrepresenting the efficacy of sexual orientation change efforts by promoting or promising change in sexual orientation when providing assistance to individuals distressed by their own or others' sexual orientation…"
Resolution on Appropriate Affirmative Responses to Sexual Orientation Distress and Change Efforts.

American School Counselor Association

"Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgendered and questioning (LGBTQ) youth often begin to experience self-identification during their pre-adolescent or adolescent years, as do heterosexual youth. These developmental processes are essential cognitive, emotional and social activities, and although they may have an impact on student development and achievement, they are not a sign of illness, mental disorder or emotional problems nor do they necessarily signify sexual activity.

The professional school counselor works with all students through the stages of identity development and understands this development may be more difficult for LGBTQ youth. It is not the role of the professional school counselor to attempt to change a student's sexual orientation/gender identity but instead to provide support to LGBTQ students to promote student achievement and personal well-being."
The Professional School Counselor and LGBTQ Youth.

National Association of Social Workers

"People seek mental health services for many reasons. Accordingly, it is fair to assert that lesbians and gay men seek therapy for the same reasons that heterosexual people do. However, the increase in media campaigns, often coupled with coercive messages from family and community members, has created an environment in which lesbians and gay men often are pressured to seek reparative or conversion therapies, which cannot and will not change sexual orientation. Aligned with the American Psychological Association's (1997) position, NCLGB [NASW's National Committee on Lesbian and Gay Issues] believes that such treatment potentially can lead to severe emotional damage. Specifically, transformational ministries are fueled by stigmatization of lesbians and gay men, which in turn produces the social climate that pressures some people to seek change in sexual orientation. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful."
Position Statement, "Reparative" and "Conversion" Therapies.

Pan American Health Organization (PAHO): Regional Office of the World Health Organization

Services that purport to "cure" people with non-heterosexual sexual orientation lack medical justification and represent a serious threat to the health and well-being of affected people, the Pan American Health Organization (PAHO) said in a position statement launched on 17 May, 2012, the International Day against Homophobia. The statement calls on governments, academic institutions, professional associations and the media to expose these practices and to promote respect for diversity.

Statement, "Therapies" to change sexual orientation lack medical justification and threaten health

I mean fuck, we have been trying to cure cancer, diabetes, and heart disease forever.

Maybe you think we should stop trying?

Mark

Gay isn't a disease to be cured.

So you're willing to let the disease fester?

 

[Seawytch]

So with a mere choice you could find a man's hairy ass as sexually attractive as a woman's shapely backside?

Then Sy's right. You're probably bi already. For most of us, its not a choice. Its just an attribute.

If its not a choice, then how come some are choosing it...or not:

Some Gays Can Go Straight Study Says - ABC News

Of course, gay groups are fighting this study, because if homosexuality was a choice, there can be no discrimination.

Since I personally know gays that have went straight, I have to ask why the appeal of a "big hairy ass" left them and was replaced by a vagina.

Mark

You really should have researched further...

Psychiatry Giant Sorry for Backing Gay 'Cure'

And? My point was that some people have converted. Are you going to deny that? As for your link, if homosexuality is "ingrained", then I contend that every sexual deviancy is and that treatment should stop on all of them.

Homosexuality is not "special".

Mark

If only one changes, the argument that someone is born that way is invalid.

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Or maybe sexuality is more fluid than our puritanical roots will allow. You've heard of bisexuals, yes?

 

[Seawytch]

You really should have researched further...

Psychiatry Giant Sorry for Backing Gay 'Cure'

And? My point was that some people have converted. Are you going to deny that? As for your link, if homosexuality is "ingrained", then I contend that every sexual deviancy is and that treatment should stop on all of them.

Homosexuality is not "special".

Mark

If only one changes, the argument that someone is born that way is invalid.

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Sounds like a pretty screwed up in the head chick to me - her name didn't happen to be "SeaWytch" did it ?

But Seawytch will tell you that someone is born gay.

Actually most people will tell you sexual orientation is not a choice. Scientists will tell you too. The fact that YOU believe you made a conscious choice leads me to suspect you are bisexual and simply denying part of your attractions.

I never made a choice to be attracted to the same gender, I just always was.

 

[Conservative65]

If its not a choice, then how come some are choosing it...or not:

Some Gays Can Go Straight Study Says - ABC News

Of course, gay groups are fighting this study, because if homosexuality was a choice, there can be no discrimination.

Since I personally know gays that have went straight, I have to ask why the appeal of a "big hairy ass" left them and was replaced by a vagina.

Mark

You really should have researched further...

Psychiatry Giant Sorry for Backing Gay 'Cure'

And? My point was that some people have converted. Are you going to deny that? As for your link, if homosexuality is "ingrained", then I contend that every sexual deviancy is and that treatment should stop on all of them.

Homosexuality is not "special".

Mark

If only one changes, the argument that someone is born that way is invalid.

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Or maybe sexuality is more fluid than our puritanical roots will allow. You've heard of bisexuals, yes?

No such thing.

 

[Conservative65]

And? My point was that some people have converted. Are you going to deny that? As for your link, if homosexuality is "ingrained", then I contend that every sexual deviancy is and that treatment should stop on all of them.

Homosexuality is not "special".

Mark

If only one changes, the argument that someone is born that way is invalid.

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Sounds like a pretty screwed up in the head chick to me - her name didn't happen to be "SeaWytch" did it ?

But Seawytch will tell you that someone is born gay.

Actually most people will tell you sexual orientation is not a choice. Scientists will tell you too. The fact that YOU believe you made a conscious choice leads me to suspect you are bisexual and simply denying part of your attractions.

I never made a choice to be attracted to the same gender, I just always was.

On a different post, someone said they laughed at people like me who thought they knew more about someone than the person. They really must be laughing at you.

No such thing as bisexual.

 

[Conservative65]

And? My point was that some people have converted. Are you going to deny that? As for your link, if homosexuality is "ingrained", then I contend that every sexual deviancy is and that treatment should stop on all of them.

Homosexuality is not "special".

Mark

If only one changes, the argument that someone is born that way is invalid.

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Sounds like a pretty screwed up in the head chick to me - her name didn't happen to be "SeaWytch" did it ?

But Seawytch will tell you that someone is born gay.

Actually most people will tell you sexual orientation is not a choice. Scientists will tell you too. The fact that YOU believe you made a conscious choice leads me to suspect you are bisexual and simply denying part of your attractions.

I never made a choice to be attracted to the same gender, I just always was.

What people, a bunch a deviants like you? I don't trust you any further than I can throw a 10 ton brick.

 

[Seawytch]

Marriage in this era is for many reasons. In western culture it is mostly about love. Two people love each other and want to commit to a long term (hopefully) permanent relationship with each other that might or might not include children, that might include purchasing and building a home together, shared assets, a shared future together that is recognized legally and - if religion is involved, by a religious service. It is a relationship recognized right now, in many areas, as limited only to hetero couples.

Now fewer limit it to opposite sex couples than do not... (35-15).

 

[Seawytch]

Suffice to say, there are some very decent gays who aren't pushy assholes. I know, two of them are dear friends of mine. It's a tragedy that the faggots have become the face of gay people, but that's how life is.

Your standard for a 'pushy asshole' is any gay or lesbian who doesn't 'sit down and shut the fuck up'. Which isn't a particularly compelling standard.

You're a far greater threat to the rights of gays, then gays are a threat to your rights.

There is nothing "pushy" about two people who want to commit to a stable long term legally recognized relationship.

Yes, to be a true relationship, government has to validate it. I mean who could consider their partner to be their partner without government recognition? That wouldn't be possible. Man, a partner without OKs from politicians and bureaucrats, that would just be meaningless, wouldn't it?

Why are you asking gays that just want exactly what you enjoy? Ask your wife.

 

[Seawytch]

Those who are attracted to children can't make a different choice either. Compulsive hoarding isn't a choice. No compulsive disorder leaves the sufferer with a choice.

There is a choice in acting. For me, as a gay woman, the only choice is in acting upon my natural or god given inclinations. As long as I am acting upon those natural inclinations with another consenting adult, whose fucking business is it and why should I be denied the rights, benefits and privileges of civil marriage because my life partner of choice happens to be the same gender I am?

And who are you to define what a consenting adult is? I mean, if you want to be honest, your conditions are as arbitrary as mine are.

I just happen to have a higher standard of morality than you.

Mark

Are you being intentionally obtuse because you're arguments have failed? The age of consent is defined by law.It varies from state to state. A 40 year old man can marry his 15 year old 1st cousin in Alabama and it is legally recognized in all 50 states, even states that don't allow 15 year old 1st cousins to marry. My civil marriage to my same sex spouse that I married when she was well over the age of 18 and not related to me, is not recognized in all 50 states. That's discrimination in case you were wondering.

No, you don't have a higher standard of morality, you have a different view of what is moral and what is not. That you think yours is "better" is your opinion (and a sin).

 

[Seawytch]

If only one changes, the argument that someone is born that way is invalid.

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Sounds like a pretty screwed up in the head chick to me - her name didn't happen to be "SeaWytch" did it ?

But Seawytch will tell you that someone is born gay.

Actually most people will tell you sexual orientation is not a choice. Scientists will tell you too. The fact that YOU believe you made a conscious choice leads me to suspect you are bisexual and simply denying part of your attractions.

I never made a choice to be attracted to the same gender, I just always was.

On a different post, someone said they laughed at people like me who thought they knew more about someone than the person. They really must be laughing at you.

No such thing as bisexual.

I didn't say I knew more, I'm merely speculating and trying to understand your thought process. You said you made a conscious choice...you said you made yourself be attracted to women. Did that mean you were attracted to men? Have you ever found a man so attractive that you wanted to kiss him or get to know him better? To hold him close to you at night, spooning naked?

 

[Seawytch]

It all boils down to what consenting adults do behind closed doors is their business - so why does the Gay machine insist on getting into everybody else faces ?

The very question this whole thread is about. And in over 75 pages, none of the hemorrhoids have been able to answer it.

Do you consider marriage "getting in everybody's faces"?

I consider the subverting of the democratic process just so you can get your way is getting in everyone's face. You people are the most self centered of all, making sure that everyone is forced to accept your lifestyle even if at the point of a gun. Yes, you are getting in everyone's face and that's not going to go unanswered for long.

So blacks subverted the democratic process when they wanted to end Jim Crowe.
Women subverted the democratic process when they wanted the vote.

Oh how self centered they were forcing you all to accept their rights even at the point of a gun.

Wait a minute. At the point of a gun? Aren't you being a little bit ridiculous here?

And how is it going to go unanswered? You going to lynch some people?

Lifestyle ≠ race.

Religion is a lifestyle. If we were to prevent all Protestants from civilly marrying, that would be okay with you? Would that pass Constitutional muster for equal treatment?

Discrimination = Discrimination

 

[Redfish]

poor wytchey. so angry, so conflicted, so confused. Human society as a whole has declared that homosexuality is an aberation of the human condition.

You have a mental illness, not a physical condition, not a birth condition, but a learned condition.

You are due empathy and sympathy. The first step to a cure is admitting the disease.

 

[Redfish]

The very question this whole thread is about. And in over 75 pages, none of the hemorrhoids have been able to answer it.

Do you consider marriage "getting in everybody's faces"?

I consider the subverting of the democratic process just so you can get your way is getting in everyone's face. You people are the most self centered of all, making sure that everyone is forced to accept your lifestyle even if at the point of a gun. Yes, you are getting in everyone's face and that's not going to go unanswered for long.

So blacks subverted the democratic process when they wanted to end Jim Crowe.
Women subverted the democratic process when they wanted the vote.

Oh how self centered they were forcing you all to accept their rights even at the point of a gun.

Wait a minute. At the point of a gun? Aren't you being a little bit ridiculous here?

And how is it going to go unanswered? You going to lynch some people?

Lifestyle ≠ race.

Religion is a lifestyle. If we were to prevent all Protestants from civilly marrying, that would be okay with you? Would that pass Constitutional muster for equal treatment?

Discrimination = Discrimination

OMG, now you are equating religion and homosexuality??????????

 

[zeke]

You have a mental illness, not a physical condition, not a birth condition, but a learned condition.

You are due empathy and sympathy. The first step to a cure is admitting the disease.

Red, I admit that I think you have a disease. It is the disease of ignorance and stupidity. And I hate to tell you, there ain't no cure for you.

Gay people woke up this morning and they were still gay. You woke up this morning and were still ignorant and stupid.

I think the gays will have a better morning. You have an incurable illness red. Stupid and ignorant.

 

[Conservative65]

Heh. I know a woman who was straight, then gay, then straight again.

Lesbians especially have a high rate of "recovery".

Mark

Sounds like a pretty screwed up in the head chick to me - her name didn't happen to be "SeaWytch" did it ?

But Seawytch will tell you that someone is born gay.

Actually most people will tell you sexual orientation is not a choice. Scientists will tell you too. The fact that YOU believe you made a conscious choice leads me to suspect you are bisexual and simply denying part of your attractions.

I never made a choice to be attracted to the same gender, I just always was.

On a different post, someone said they laughed at people like me who thought they knew more about someone than the person. They really must be laughing at you.

No such thing as bisexual.

I didn't say I knew more, I'm merely speculating and trying to understand your thought process. You said you made a conscious choice...you said you made yourself be attracted to women. Did that mean you were attracted to men? Have you ever found a man so attractive that you wanted to kiss him or get to know him better? To hold him close to you at night, spooning naked?

You have made the claim.

I said I chose women just like you chose women. Difference is my choice is normal and your choice is deviant and one you don't have the guts to admit you made. If you homos are so proud of what you are, why aren't you willing to say you chose.

 

[kaz]

So, to you, demanding government gives you stuff = demanding government not take away your rights? I want government to give me a refrigerator = I want government to not take away my right to vote. I want government to buy me a TV = I want government to not tell me I can't use the public drinking fountain. Seriously, you don't know the difference?

If you still don't get it, you should Google "positive and negative rights."

No.

No one is demanding the governent give anyone "stuff".

The only demand is that the government apply the Constitution equally. As in - the right to vote. The right to use public drinking fountains. The right to marry. ...

Then we're good to go here, given that no one is being prohibited from marrying anyone, as long as they apply with only one other person and that person is a member of the distinct gender.

A standard which is applied EQUALLY, throughout the entire United States and without exception.

Why does it need to be a "distinct gender"? That automatically is discrimminatory. Heteros can marry the person they love. Homos can not.

"the person they love" seriously?

Give me another law that changes based on what someone wants.

Marriage is ALL about what someone wants.

So how is that different than a hunting license or a drivers license or any other license you get? You don't get it if you don't want something.

Heterosexuals can't enter into a single sex marriage either. Name another law that changes based on what you want?

If you want to hunt deer but it's duck season and you don't hunt duck, the law doesn't change for you. Name one that does.

 

[Conservative65]

You have a mental illness, not a physical condition, not a birth condition, but a learned condition.

You are due empathy and sympathy. The first step to a cure is admitting the disease.

Red, I admit that I think you have a disease. It is the disease of ignorance and stupidity. And I hate to tell you, there ain't no cure for you.

Gay people woke up this morning and they were still gay. You woke up this morning and were still ignorant and stupid.

I think the gays will have a better morning. You have an incurable illness red. Stupid and ignorant.

Not when they live a deviant lifestyle. Nothing good about that.

 

[Redfish]

You have a mental illness, not a physical condition, not a birth condition, but a learned condition.

You are due empathy and sympathy. The first step to a cure is admitting the disease.

Red, I admit that I think you have a disease. It is the disease of ignorance and stupidity. And I hate to tell you, there ain't no cure for you.

Gay people woke up this morning and they were still gay. You woke up this morning and were still ignorant and stupid.

I think the gays will have a better morning. You have an incurable illness red. Stupid and ignorant.

Nope, I am just fine. My sexuality is of the normal human kind. I have friends and relatives who are gay, I love and respect every one of them. But that does not make homosexuality a normal human condition any more than leprosy is a normal human condition.

the stupidity and ignorance is on your side, because you refuse to accept the biological realities of human beings.

 

[kaz]

So, to you, demanding government gives you stuff = demanding government not take away your rights? I want government to give me a refrigerator = I want government to not take away my right to vote. I want government to buy me a TV = I want government to not tell me I can't use the public drinking fountain. Seriously, you don't know the difference?

If you still don't get it, you should Google "positive and negative rights."

No.

No one is demanding the governent give anyone "stuff".

The only demand is that the government apply the Constitution equally. As in - the right to vote. The right to use public drinking fountains. The right to marry. ...

Then we're good to go here, given that no one is being prohibited from marrying anyone, as long as they apply with only one other person and that person is a member of the distinct gender.

A standard which is applied EQUALLY, throughout the entire United States and without exception.

Why does it need to be a "distinct gender"? That automatically is discrimminatory. Heteros can marry the person they love. Homos can not.

"the person they love" seriously?

Give me another law that changes based on what someone wants.

Blacks wanting freedom, Women wanting the vote, Mixed-race couples wanting to marry, women wanting legal abortions, the US wanting a nation governed by men and not a king. Shall I continue, dumbass?

None of those are examples of laws changing based on what people want. Was that supposed to make sense?