Zone1 The officer did not murder Floyd, should he get a new trial?

[GLASNOST]

Well I think I'm done with this LOL. I did enjoy myself however.

So, you're letting Savannah run you over? You were the only hope I had.

​

It pains me to think of poor officer Chauvin languishing in jail unjustly.

So then why do you give up your support of his "innocence"? I thought you had some basis for a good argument but you just threw in the towel. What's that all about?

 

[Blisterfinger]

LOLOLOL

Did you really think I take instructions from YOU??

I'm sure you could do some Fentanyl and pass some counterfeit money with these guys. They are a lot like you

 

[SavannahMann]

OH positional asphyxiation-----so it was not a matter of the pressure of. a knee on his
neck-----OK obese guy---drugged out his mind ---in a NON OPTIMAL position

You really should stop. If you were half as smart as you imagine yourself to be you would have by now.

 

[irosie91]

You really should stop. If you were half as smart as you imagine yourself to be you would have by now.

are you sure you have any idea as to what happened?

 

[irosie91]

2nd degree does not require intent.

oh what does it require? There is a 2nd degree "MURDER" or is it called "homicide"

 

[SavannahMann]

are you sure you have any idea as to what happened?

Yes. I’m pretty sure that I know what happened. I am always willing to consider an alternative theory. But the funny thing about all of those alternatives, they don’t explain the actions of Chauvin.

 

[irosie91]

Yes. I’m pretty sure that I know what happened. I am always willing to consider an alternative theory. But the funny thing about all of those alternatives, they don’t explain the actions of Chauvin.

what happened?

 

[badbob85037]

After police murdered a shackled Freddie Grey by giving him a rough ride in a paddy wagon Trump told police "When you see these thugs being thrown into the back of a paddy wagon, you just seen them thrown in, rough. I said, ‘Please don’t be too nice,’" Trump said

Maybe he was talking about the trash that beat elderly shop owners with 2 x 4's as they loot and burned.

 

[Faun]

oh what does it require? There is a 2nd degree "MURDER" or is it called "homicide"

It requires killing someone unintentionally while committing, or attempting to commit, a felony.

 

[SavannahMann]

what happened?

It has been described here many times. But do you really want the whole story?

It starts many years before the encounter. Officer Derek Chauvin had more than eighteen complaints against him. Many of those complaints were sustained, or upheld as accurate.

In other words. He did it. His superiors knew he did it. And he had a pattern of doing it.

The people Derek Chauvin choked before George Floyd

They describe an officer quick to use force and callous about their pain.

www.mprnews.org

They told good old Chauvin several times to not do these things. Now with that many complaints and more still rolling in before that fateful day. We have three possible explanations.

Either A) Chauvin didn’t think the bosses were serious. They were just checking the block so to speak. B) The bosses were not serious in letting Chauvin know this sort of thing was wrong. Or finally C) A mix of the two, where the Bosses could have been a bit more emphatic but were not.

Now remember. Many of these complaints were upheld. Chauvin had a history of excessive force. Maybe just across that line, but a history.

What we are certain of is that the Minneapolis Police trained Chauvin that once the suspect was restrained to end the kneeling control trick. They told him it was dangerous. He had five complaints from its use after the individual was in restraints before. Five complaints.

So what we have is a guy who has a habit of doing things he knows he isn’t supposed to. Maybe he thought the danger of Positional Asphyxia was bullshit. Maybe he thought he was too good to let that happen. Maybe he thought he just knew what was really going on.

What we know is that they told him not to do it and he did it more than once.

The thing about breaking rules is that you might get away with it from time to time. You might get away with it many times. You might even get away with it for life. It depends on something else now. Luck. Leaving your fate to luck isn’t a great plan.

I was a Combat Engineer in the Army. We did a lot of things that were potentially dangerous. And we were trained to follow the rules and minimize the danger. Something an instructor told me in Basic Training always stuck in my mind. The rules were written in the blood of those who didn’t follow that rule.

Chauvin knew the rules. He decided to flaunt them. He decided to do what he thought was right. He took the risk. And as almost always happens eventually his luck ran out.

We know that 44 people lost consciousness while this procedure was being used in Minneapolis. So we know that the cops are aware it can be dangerous.

Floyd was a bad guy. A drug addict and career petty criminal. But that doesn’t matter. As a society we expect such people to be arrested and tried for their crimes. Personally I think treatment has a better success rate than incarceration. But that is irrelevant for this discussion.

We as a society believe that if someone dies at the hands of another, that other better have a good reason. And here is where Chauvin lost before any trial took place.

There are some good explanations for a person dying at the hands of cops. And none of them apply.

1) I didn’t do it. The video and Chauvin’s own statement make it clearly impossible for the it wasn’t me defense.

2) I was doing my job and following policy and procedure. The line of duty defense. But that defense doesn’t work unless you are actually following the policies and procedures.

3) I was afeared for my life and/or the lives of my fellow officers or citizens. The self defense argument. Floyd was no danger to anyone. Chauvin never claimed he was.

4) It wasn’t my fault. He died from something unrelated.

This last one is what Chauvin tried in the trial. But the Prosecution demolished all of those just in case.

Now. The only things left is that Floyd was a waste of flesh and the world is better off without him. The Relative Value argument. There was a time in human history where we operated that way. But those times are long gone and relegated to the pages of history books and fiction or fantasy genres.

The last one is even worse. Floyd would have died anyway. To that I’ll answer. Maybe. Maybe he would have overdosed. Maybe he wouldn’t have. But that doesn’t matter.

Let’s say your child has Cancer. Your child will die in six months. There is no hope for a treatment. No cure is possible. If I shoot your child in the head and kill that child, would you accept that as an excuse?

That attitude in the 1970’s helped lead to the get tough on crime attitude of the 1980’s through to today. When some thug killed an old man or lady and said who cares? They were old and going to die soon anyway. We didn’t accept that. We as a society didn’t accept it.

In the end we have the testimony of even the Defense Expert. All of the medical people ruled out overdose as a cause of death. Unless they are all wrong, and some basement dweller on the internet is right, we have to conclude that Chauvin’s actions directly led to Floyd’s death. And the Defense Expert agreed with that under cross examination.

 

[GLASNOST]

what happened?

It has been described here many times. But do you really want the whole story?

It starts many years before the encounter. Officer Derek Chauvin .......

You're speaking to deaf ears.

 

[SavannahMann]

You're speaking to deaf ears.

I’m curious as to why they are rushing to Chauvin’s defense. I see a few possibilities.

They believe Blacks are terrible and any dead Black, especially a dead Black Criminal is a good thing.

They believe the cops are too hamstrung to operate effectively and endorse the get tough on criminals approach. They make lame excuses about the tough jobs the cops have and we should forgive the cops because of it.

Finally there are the cops just know. These are the folks who because of media think the cops just know if a guy is guilty. As if cops have a psychic sense of such things. And if the psychic sense is wrong about something specific. The baddie didn’t really rob a liquor store. The baddie was guilty of something to trigger the cop’s psychic power.

I’m always curious when these topic come up, as to which group I am debating.

 

[irosie91]

I’m curious as to why they are rushing to Chauvin’s defense. I see a few possibilities.

They believe Blacks are terrible and any dead Black, especially a dead Black Criminal is a good thing.

They believe the cops are too hamstrung to operate effectively and endorse the get tough on criminals approach. They make lame excuses about the tough jobs the cops have and we should forgive the cops because of it.

Finally there are the cops just know. These are the folks who because of media think the cops just know if a guy is guilty. As if cops have a psychic sense of such things. And if the psychic sense is wrong about something specific. The baddie didn’t really rob a liquor store. The baddie was guilty of something to trigger the cop’s psychic power.

I’m always curious when these topic come up, as to which group I am debating.

nope with me it is experience. I have seen many violent people---including criminals being arrested, that had to be restrained. it's a very violent situation and I am surprised
that more people don't die. I have also seen many injured cops. I have examined
lots of people on the question-----Is that guy's brain dead----it takes me at least 20 minutes, or more. Cops are not expert in that field ----ALSO cops out in the street face a very hostile crowd in various parts of the city-----that's where they get injured and that was
the case with----what's his name..

 

[SavannahMann]

nope with me it is experience. I have seen many violent people---including criminals being arrested, that had to be restrained. it's a very violent situation and I am surprised
that more people don't die. I have also seen many injured cops. I have examined
lots of people on the question-----Is that guy's brain dead----it takes me at least 20 minutes, or more. Cops are not expert in that field ----ALSO cops out in the street face a very hostile crowd in various parts of the city-----that's where they get injured and that was
the case with----what's his name..

Ok. Why did Chauvin violate policy? Why didn’t he cease the knee hold when Floyd was restrained? The violent crowd was shouting for Chauvin to get off and let Floyd breathe.

So why didn’t Chauvin stop kneeling on Floyd? Why did he keep kneeling when Floyd lost consciousness? Why didn’t he get off when they couldn’t find a pulse on Floyd? At what point was it in your experience that Floyd no longer was violent? Was it after he lost consciousness? Or after they couldn’t find a pulse?

EDIT. Accidentally hit the post button. Sorry.

But your post indicates you fall in the second category.

 

[irosie91]

Ok. Why did Chauvin violate policy? Why didn’t he cease the knee hold when Floyd was restrained? The violent crowd was shouting for Chauvin to get off and let Floyd breathe.

So why didn’t Chauvin stop kneeling on Floyd? Why did he keep kneeling when Floyd lost consciousness? Why didn’t he get off when they couldn’t find a pulse on Floyd? At what point was it in your experience that Floyd no longer was violent? Was it after he lost consciousness? Or after they couldn’t find a pulse?

EDIT. Accidentally hit the post button. Sorry.

But your post indicates you fall in the second category.

In my experience---sometimes YA CAN'T PALPATE A PULSE so easily as you imagine---
whilst in the midst of dealing with a violent large obese guy and a hostile crowd.
Life in the ASPHALT jungle is tough. It's like a battle field where a really startling
number of people get hit by "friendly fire"

 

[GLASNOST]

I’m curious as to why they are rushing to Chauvin’s defense.

"Rushing" might be too strong of a word.

I see a few possibilities.

Let's hear them.

1). They believe Blacks are terrible and any dead Black, especially a dead Black Criminal is a good thing.
2). They believe the cops are too hamstrung to operate effectively and endorse the get tough on criminals approach. They make lame excuses about the tough jobs the cops have and we should forgive the cops because of it.
3). Finally there are the cops just know. These are the folks who because of media think the cops just know if a guy is guilty. As if cops have a psychic sense of such things. And if the psychic sense is wrong about something specific. The baddie didn’t really rob a liquor store. The baddie was guilty of something to trigger the cop’s psychic power.

Choice 2 is the reason I am willing to believe Chauvin is innocent. Choice 1 is too grim and Choice 3 is too crazy .... but I do see that rhymes with posey is inclined to believe both 1 and 3.

 

[SavannahMann]

In my experience---sometimes YA CAN'T PALPATE A PULSE so easily as you imagine---
whilst in the midst of dealing with a violent large obese guy and a hostile crowd.
Life in the ASPHALT jungle is tough. It's like a battle field where a really startling
number of people get hit by "friendly fire"

So if you can’t find a pulse, being apparently in the medical field, do you just give up?

I asked when Floyd stopped being violent. He lost consciousness and was unresponsive. When I was going through training to be what we called a Combat Lifesaver, basically a battlefield first responder, I was taught to yell, shake, and then finally rub the breastbone hard to try and elicit a response.

I assume, and yes I am aware of the risks, that current first aid or first responder standards are similar.

I mention this because you keep ignoring the questions I ask you. You won’t discuss them because you know it will expose your motivation behind rushing to the defense of Chauvin.

Was Floyd still violent when he lost consciousness? When they couldn’t get a pulse why didn’t they shift to trying to figure out if Floyd was OK? Perhaps it was just difficult to get one from that angle. Why not try again? Wrists were available. If you think the neck is obscured why not try and relieve the pressure and get another attempt?

The defense expert medical examiner admitted that as a medical person he would want to see the officers begin CPR. You are apparently a medical person. Why don’t you want to see the cops try and save a life? Why are you opposed to that? I mean if you were the one who decided if someone was indeed brain dead. Why would you be opposed to basic lifesaving measures when the man lost consciousness and they could not find a pulse?

 

[irosie91]

So if you can’t find a pulse, being apparently in the medical field, do you just give up?

I asked when Floyd stopped being violent. He lost consciousness and was unresponsive. When I was going through training to be what we called a Combat Lifesaver, basically a battlefield first responder, I was taught to yell, shake, and then finally rub the breastbone hard to try and elicit a response.

I assume, and yes I am aware of the risks, that current first aid or first responder standards are similar.

I mention this because you keep ignoring the questions I ask you. You won’t discuss them because you know it will expose your motivation behind rushing to the defense of Chauvin.

Was Floyd still violent when he lost consciousness? When they couldn’t get a pulse why didn’t they shift to trying to figure out if Floyd was OK? Perhaps it was just difficult to get one from that angle. Why not try again? Wrists were available. If you think the neck is obscured why not try and relieve the pressure and get another attempt?

The defense expert medical examiner admitted that as a medical person he would want to see the officers begin CPR. You are apparently a medical person. Why don’t you want to see the cops try and save a life? Why are you opposed to that? I mean if you were the one who decided if someone was indeed brain dead. Why would you be opposed to basic lifesaving measures when the man lost consciousness and they could not find a pulse?

I am very adept at palpating pulses over many parts of the body----cops aren't
I have little fingers. To what "basic lifesaving measures" do you refer other
than a speeding ambulance TO THE HOSPITAL

 

[GLASNOST]

So if you can’t find a pulse, being apparently in the medical field, do you just give up?
I asked when Floyd stopped being violent. He lost consciousness and was unresponsive. .....
I assume, and yes I am aware of the risks, that current first aid or first responder standards are similar ......

I understand.

I am very adept at palpating pulses over many parts of the body----cops aren't
I have little fingers. To what "basic lifesaving measures" do you refer other
than a speeding ambulance TO THE HOSPITAL

I am not completely convinced that Chauvin is guilty of murder but Savannah is making a substantial argument for his case. All you are doing is ignoring what he says and deflecting your obvious inadequacies. You have a personal agenda that is way off the scale of an earnest discussion. Give it up.

 

[irosie91]

I understand.

I am not completely convinced that Chauvin is guilty of murder but Savannah is making a substantial argument for his case. All you are doing is ignoring what he says and deflecting your obvious inadequacies. You have a personal agenda that is way off the scale of an earnest discussion. Give it up.

Mr. Glass as in "living in such a house" is stymied again