The Right to Work for less money

[Koios]

Thanks for proving my point.

Ditto.

Dude, it wasn't just me that noted that your reply totally missed my point and instead of mustering some intellectually integrity, admitting it and actually responding to what I said you'd rather nit pick on stuff lick this. THAT was the point. That instead of coming up with a reasoned counter argument to what I said you would rather devolve to this. On the other hand there is nothing I have said or done that could remotely be construed as proving any point of yours.

Stupidty, too, loves company. Glad you weren't short-shrifted. Lucky you.

 

[Bern80]

Ditto.

Dude, it wasn't just me that noted that your reply totally missed my point and instead of mustering some intellectually integrity, admitting it and actually responding to what I said you'd rather nit pick on stuff lick this. THAT was the point. That instead of coming up with a reasoned counter argument to what I said you would rather devolve to this. On the other hand there is nothing I have said or done that could remotely be construed as proving any point of yours.

Stupidty, too, loves company. Glad you weren't short-shrifted. Lucky you.

If you're comfortable with what the record will actually reflect I guess I am too.

 

[Againsheila]

Nothing could be further from the truth. All these laws do is allow a person to get a job in a union shop and not be required to join the union.

That is called "scabbing." A non-union worker employed in a union shop is a "scab."

The union continues to collective bargain and allows unions to continue exactly as it did before the law was changed.

And when management turns its back on a union demand, regardless of how reasonable, the only recourse the union has is to strike. But when management has been gradually filling the ranks with scabs (non-union workers) and the union workers strike, management simply brings in more scabs to take up the slack and ignores the striking union employees.

What these "Right-To-Work" laws do is effectively disarm the unions, making them irrelevant.

Not to mention the fact that the scabs reap the rewards of the unions sacrifices.

 

[Againsheila]

Nothing could be further from the truth. All these laws do is allow a person to get a job in a union shop and not be required to join the union.

That is called "scabbing." A non-union worker employed in a union shop is a "scab."

The union continues to collective bargain and allows unions to continue exactly as it did before the law was changed.

And when management turns its back on a union demand, regardless of how reasonable, the only recourse the union has is to strike. But when management has been gradually filling the ranks with scabs (non-union workers) and the union workers strike, management simply brings in more scabs to take up the slack and ignores the striking union employees.

What these "Right-To-Work" laws do is effectively disarm the unions, making them irrelevant.

Do the non union workers get the job done as well as the union workers?

Yes, and with the same pay and benefits as the union workers only better because they don't pay dues and they don't go on strike. But when the union does go on strike for better working conditions, the scabs reap the benefits as well as the union workers.

Kind of like the illegals coming here and taking from us, keeping our wages artificially low, getting welfare, etc, all on the backs of our citizens.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Unions are on the fast track to go the way of the brontosaurus. Just as well... looks like the rank and file are a bunch of Neanderthals anyway.

 

[Gadawg73]

There should be a right to work for less money. Employment should be between the employer and the employee. If someone is willing to work for less money than someone else, they should have the right to do it.

Even though it serves the interest of exploitative employers in promoting miserable, abusive working conditions and minimal wages? Because, as recent history readily attests, that is what the so-called "right to work" circumstance does.

"Right-To-Work" inevitably will destroy what we presently know to be the American Middle Class, which came into being as the direct result of the union movement and the standards that arose from it.

I never felt exploited when I received my first job.
And the next one and the one after that.

Just WTF are you talking about? Abusive? Who abuses employees in America? Abuse is a crime in all the states.
Wages are earned. Low skilled uneducated workers get what they are worth IN THE MARKET PLACE.

 

[MikeK]

There should be a right to work for less money. Employment should be between the employer and the employee. If someone is willing to work for less money than someone else, they should have the right to do it.

Even though it serves the interest of exploitative employers in promoting miserable, abusive working conditions and minimal wages? Because, as recent history readily attests, that is what the so-called "right to work" circumstance does.

"Right-To-Work" inevitably will destroy what we presently know to be the American Middle Class, which came into being as the direct result of the union movement and the standards that arose from it.

If that were true there would be no non-union middle class. Try again.

The wage and benefit standards of virtually all non-union employers exist because of the intimidating prospect of union organizing. The union movement brought about universal improvement in wages, benefits, and working conditions.

The leading exception to that rule is WalMart, the success of which is based on the immense size and extraordinary financial power of that massive corporation. Because WalMart manages to remain just above the saturation level of employee dissatisfaction, and because it can afford to close down any of its facilities which becomes organized, it has thus far been able to resist union incursion. If a union is able to simultaneously organize all or most WalMart stores that formidable position will change, but the direction the right-to-work movement is moving in makes that change very unlikely at this time.

 

[MikeK]

I never felt exploited when I received my first job.
And the next one and the one after that.

Just WTF are you talking about? Abusive? Who abuses employees in America? Abuse is a crime in all the states.
Wages are earned. Low skilled uneducated workers get what they are worth IN THE MARKET PLACE.

What was your first job? How much did you earn? And what were your social conditions at the time (live home with parents)?

And if you don't believe American workers were ever exploited and abused that is because of your abject ignorance of the history of the American labor movement. The remedy for that ignorance is to read some or all of the following books and to see all or most of the following movies -- each of which is based on verifiable facts. I can assure you that a little education will bring about a radical change in your attitude and perceptions.


Union books:

Rebuilding Labor
Why Unions Matter
Unions At The Crossroads
The Transformation of U.S. Unions
Look For The Union Label
What Do We Need A Union For
The CIO
Infighting In The UAW

______________________________________

Union Movies:

How Green Was My Valley
The Grapes Of Wrath
Native Land
On The Waterfront
The Pajama Game
Harlan County USA
The Organizer
Norma Rae
Matewan
The Molly Maguires
Hoffa

 

[kwc57]

No it's not. While both are subjective as shit, in essence:

Merit = I think it has meaning to me;
Worth = I want it more than the cost in Cents/Dollars/Trade/Service to get it.

Does that help?

Wrong again;

Merit = level of contribution of the individual
worth/value = is the market factors that establish the prevailing wage for the skill set.

Try to stay with me ... and to make real easy for you, I'll use them in sentences:

I think what Robert Reich is saying has some merit.

Man these new comfort shoes are worth every penny I paid.

That help?

Worth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

worth noun

Definition of WORTH

1a : monetary value <farmhouse and lands of little worth> b : the equivalent of a specified amount or figure <a dollar's worth of gas>

2: the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held <a literary heritage of great worth>

3a : moral or personal value <trying to teach human worth> b : merit, excellence <a field in which we have proved our worth>

4: wealth, riches

Related to WORTH

Synonyms: account, merit, valuation, value

 

[Koios]

Wrong again;

Merit = level of contribution of the individual
worth/value = is the market factors that establish the prevailing wage for the skill set.

Try to stay with me ... and to make real easy for you, I'll use them in sentences:

I think what Robert Reich is saying has some merit.

Man these new comfort shoes are worth every penny I paid.

That help?

Worth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

worth noun

Definition of WORTH

1a : monetary value <farmhouse and lands of little worth> b : the equivalent of a specified amount or figure <a dollar's worth of gas>

2: the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held <a literary heritage of great worth>

3a : moral or personal value <trying to teach human worth> b : merit, excellence <a field in which we have proved our worth>

4: wealth, riches

Related to WORTH

Synonyms: account, merit, valuation, value

If I was debating Webster, I'd thank for helping with copy-and-paste.

Have you nothing? Or perhaps you can show where Webster's and I contradict?

Go hog wild.

 

[Koios]

Try to stay with me ... and to make real easy for you, I'll use them in sentences:

I think what Robert Reich is saying has some merit.

Man these new comfort shoes are worth every penny I paid.

That help?

Worth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

worth noun

Definition of WORTH

1a : monetary value <farmhouse and lands of little worth> b : the equivalent of a specified amount or figure <a dollar's worth of gas>

2: the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held <a literary heritage of great worth>

3a : moral or personal value <trying to teach human worth> b : merit, excellence <a field in which we have proved our worth>

4: wealth, riches

Related to WORTH

Synonyms: account, merit, valuation, value

If I was debating Webster, I'd thank for helping with copy-and-paste.

Have you nothing? Or perhaps you can show where Webster's and I contradict?

Go hog wild.

And to expand on that a bit, let me say that when using words interchangeably, then they're similar only in that context.

But as having worked as copywriter, where were not bound by rules of proper grammar, word meaning trumps all, since we're tyring to create a feeling about a product and not describe it, per se. So indeed, merit is something that sums up its parts to something we think of as a whole. While worth is something greater than the effort/cost to get it.

And consider the dynamic in a wage negotiation, if unlike most, it's not a set salary for the postion. There's a built-in contradiction: the employee thinks the money is worth more, while the employer thinks the labor is worth more. So which is "worth" the most? Depends on who you ask, ergo, subjective as all get out.

But with the advent of unions and minimum wages, the comparitive worth calculation is thrown out the window. Now for unions workers, the most they can get is the objective, and to keep the company operating, employers will go nearer the breaking point. With minimum wages, we merely set an arbitrary number no one can go below.

Actual worth would only exist if employers and employees both were paid based entirely on profits. Profit-sharing schemes endeavor to get there, but only to a degree and to motivate harder effort by workers.

So in the end, in support of an idea, "worth," all we have as a measure is wages vs. productivity, which is as close as we'll ever come to determining worth, a very subjective concept. And it does't speak well for how much workers are being paid, which we need to actively correct, since it's not correcting itself, and the shrinking consumption/business opportunity is approaching a crisis point.

We must therefore, a) raise the minimum wage, by about 80%; b) tighten overtime pay laws and rules governing salary v. wage so workers are paid more for over 40 hours a week; c) return to paid lunches and breaks and not a 9 hour day paid for 8; d) make the barriers to workers organizing less, and have Labor (the department) be active in supporting unionization as it's prime charter.

Then workers will get and spend more, growing the economy. And who gives a fuck what "worth" is.

 

[kwc57]

Try to stay with me ... and to make real easy for you, I'll use them in sentences:

I think what Robert Reich is saying has some merit.

Man these new comfort shoes are worth every penny I paid.

That help?

Worth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

worth noun

Definition of WORTH

1a : monetary value <farmhouse and lands of little worth> b : the equivalent of a specified amount or figure <a dollar's worth of gas>

2: the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held <a literary heritage of great worth>

3a : moral or personal value <trying to teach human worth> b : merit, excellence <a field in which we have proved our worth>

4: wealth, riches

Related to WORTH

Synonyms: account, merit, valuation, value

If I was debating Webster, I'd thank for helping with copy-and-paste.

Have you nothing? Or perhaps you can show where Webster's and I contradict?

Go hog wild.

Trying to deicde if you are being obtuse or just stupid. I'll go with stupid given the evidence so far.

 

[Bern80]

The wage and benefit standards of virtually all non-union employers exist because of the intimidating prospect of union organizing. The union movement brought about universal improvement in wages, benefits, and working conditions.

That's a convenient, self serving argument. Unfortuantely there isn't any real evidence for it. The organized labor movement simply isn't that big. Organized labor makes up a mere 7% of the private sector labor force. It's pretty tough to make the argument that a mere 7% of the work force is dictating the pay and benefits of the other 92%

 

[Koios]

Worth - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

worth noun

Definition of WORTH

1a : monetary value <farmhouse and lands of little worth> b : the equivalent of a specified amount or figure <a dollar's worth of gas>

2: the value of something measured by its qualities or by the esteem in which it is held <a literary heritage of great worth>

3a : moral or personal value <trying to teach human worth> b : merit, excellence <a field in which we have proved our worth>

4: wealth, riches

Related to WORTH

Synonyms: account, merit, valuation, value

If I was debating Webster, I'd thank for helping with copy-and-paste.

Have you nothing? Or perhaps you can show where Webster's and I contradict?

Go hog wild.

Trying to deicde if you are being obtuse or just stupid. I'll go with stupid given the evidence so far.

Let me know what you decide since I'm on pins and needles in giddy anticipation of which you think it is.

 

[Too Tall]

We must therefore, a) raise the minimum wage, by about 80%; b) tighten overtime pay laws and rules governing salary v. wage so workers are paid more for over 40 hours a week; c) return to paid lunches and breaks and not a 9 hour day paid for 8; d) make the barriers to workers organizing less, and have Labor (the department) be active in supporting unionization as it's prime charter.

Then workers will get and spend more, growing the economy. And who gives a fuck what "worth" is.

And what happens to those on a fixed retirement income when prices on everything doubles?

 

[Koios]

And what happens to those on a fixed retirement income when prices on everything doubles?

Unicorns eat more bunny rabbits, depleting the coyote population for want of bunny rabbits no longer around, so then the small dogs the elderly prefer are at less risk of being eaten, driving up their cost of dog food as their pets' likely lifespans increase.

Then of course with more dog food being bought, the cardboard filler used in them creates more demand for cardboard, raising the cost of shipping for Amazon and other dot-coms, resulting in their failure.

Soon after, communism results, and General Secretary Boehner builds gulags where once bunny rabbits and coyotes flourished.

 

[Too Tall]

Help me make sure I understand how union negotiations work. Is it kind of like when Guido comes to your donut shop and tells you that giving him $100 a week will ensure no windows are broken in your shop?

It's folly to think we can help assure you understand something you do not. Sorry to disappoint.

Negotiations are competing forces. State employees, for example, might want more money to keep pace with inflation, and they have an arrow in their quiver: they can stop doing the work, effectively shutting down state services, which riles up the voters, making the governor fear having to look for a day job. Quite a nice bit of leverage.

But the governor is not without some arrows too: folks in the state are suffering; revenue is tanking; if we do this, many of you will be pink-slipped. I love you like brothers and sisters, and the people vitally need the service you provide, plus I'm no rich CEO wanting a fat payday on stock options. I, like you, am a public servant. And here's the numbers; the cookie jar simply cannot support what you're asking, which I think is entirely fair, but undoable. I need your help to do the work of the people. It's one hell of a nice bit of leverage, too.

So in the end, the competing forces, create a balance, that economists in the beginning thought was a nice alternative to being commie, like them Bolsheviks. Let labor and management come together, and find a natural balance, where all's fair, since both have some say and have to agree.

Simple. Also, now you understand collective bargaining vs. protection rackets, which are indeed entitely different.

You left out a third option that took place in my county a number of of years back. The County Commissioners wanted a 1% local option sales tax to be used to repair the roads and put it on the ballot. It lost in the general election.

Over the next six months county road crews started repair on almost every main thoroughfare in the county and closed one or two lanes, never finishing any of them. It now took two hours to get to work rather than the normal 30 or 40 minutes.

They then held a special election and got the votes for the local option sales tax. We then voted those responsible out of office the next general election.

 

[Too Tall]

Unicorns eat more bunny rabbits, depleting the coyote population for want of bunny rabbits no longer around, so then the small dogs the elderly prefer are at less risk of being eaten, driving up their cost of dog food as their pets' likely lifespans increase.

Then of course with more dog food being bought, the cardboard filler used in them creates more demand for cardboard, raising the cost of shipping for Amazon and other dot-coms, resulting in their failure.

Soon after, communism results, and General Secretary Boehner builds gulags where once bunny rabbits and coyotes flourished.

I would have thought that would be General Secretary Obama, but then................

Don't have an answer do you!

 

[Koios]

Help me make sure I understand how union negotiations work. Is it kind of like when Guido comes to your donut shop and tells you that giving him $100 a week will ensure no windows are broken in your shop?

It's folly to think we can help assure you understand something you do not. Sorry to disappoint.

Negotiations are competing forces. State employees, for example, might want more money to keep pace with inflation, and they have an arrow in their quiver: they can stop doing the work, effectively shutting down state services, which riles up the voters, making the governor fear having to look for a day job. Quite a nice bit of leverage.

But the governor is not without some arrows too: folks in the state are suffering; revenue is tanking; if we do this, many of you will be pink-slipped. I love you like brothers and sisters, and the people vitally need the service you provide, plus I'm no rich CEO wanting a fat payday on stock options. I, like you, am a public servant. And here's the numbers; the cookie jar simply cannot support what you're asking, which I think is entirely fair, but undoable. I need your help to do the work of the people. It's one hell of a nice bit of leverage, too.

So in the end, the competing forces, create a balance, that economists in the beginning thought was a nice alternative to being commie, like them Bolsheviks. Let labor and management come together, and find a natural balance, where all's fair, since both have some say and have to agree.

Simple. Also, now you understand collective bargaining vs. protection rackets, which are indeed entitely different.

You left out a third option that took place in my county a number of of years back. The County Commissioners wanted a 1% local option sales tax to be used to repair the roads and put it on the ballot. It lost in the general election.

Over the next six months county road crews started repair on almost every main thoroughfare in the county and closed one or two lanes, never finishing any of them. It now took two hours to get to work rather than the normal 30 or 40 minutes.

They then held a special election and got the votes for the local option sales tax. We then voted those responsible out of office the next general election.

Sucks to have regressive taxes, doesn't it? Sales tax, which actually increases the cost of things we buy is used, resulting in making commute times a bitch. But some contractor pals of the governor made tidy profit building roads. Not all got fucked.

 

[Koios]

I would have thought that would be General Secretary Obama, but then................

Don't have an answer do you!

It was just stupid unsubstantiated assertions in response to the same. Try to not overthink it.

So sure, General Secretary Obama. That make you happy?