The Right to Work for less money

[Too Tall]

It's folly to think we can help assure you understand something you do not. Sorry to disappoint.

Negotiations are competing forces. State employees, for example, might want more money to keep pace with inflation, and they have an arrow in their quiver: they can stop doing the work, effectively shutting down state services, which riles up the voters, making the governor fear having to look for a day job. Quite a nice bit of leverage.

But the governor is not without some arrows too: folks in the state are suffering; revenue is tanking; if we do this, many of you will be pink-slipped. I love you like brothers and sisters, and the people vitally need the service you provide, plus I'm no rich CEO wanting a fat payday on stock options. I, like you, am a public servant. And here's the numbers; the cookie jar simply cannot support what you're asking, which I think is entirely fair, but undoable. I need your help to do the work of the people. It's one hell of a nice bit of leverage, too.

So in the end, the competing forces, create a balance, that economists in the beginning thought was a nice alternative to being commie, like them Bolsheviks. Let labor and management come together, and find a natural balance, where all's fair, since both have some say and have to agree.

Simple. Also, now you understand collective bargaining vs. protection rackets, which are indeed entitely different.

You left out a third option that took place in my county a number of of years back. The County Commissioners wanted a 1% local option sales tax to be used to repair the roads and put it on the ballot. It lost in the general election.

Over the next six months county road crews started repair on almost every main thoroughfare in the county and closed one or two lanes, never finishing any of them. It now took two hours to get to work rather than the normal 30 or 40 minutes.

They then held a special election and got the votes for the local option sales tax. We then voted those responsible out of office the next general election.

Sucks to have regressive taxes, doesn't it? Sales tax, which actually increases the cost of things we buy is used, resulting in making commute times a bitch. But some contractor pals of the governor made tidy profit building roads. Not all got fucked.

Actually, it was the County Commissioners, but you got it right. Only the lower income folks got really hurt.

 

[Koios]

You left out a third option that took place in my county a number of of years back. The County Commissioners wanted a 1% local option sales tax to be used to repair the roads and put it on the ballot. It lost in the general election.

Over the next six months county road crews started repair on almost every main thoroughfare in the county and closed one or two lanes, never finishing any of them. It now took two hours to get to work rather than the normal 30 or 40 minutes.

They then held a special election and got the votes for the local option sales tax. We then voted those responsible out of office the next general election.

Sucks to have regressive taxes, doesn't it? Sales tax, which actually increases the cost of things we buy is used, resulting in making commute times a bitch. But some contractor pals of the governor made tidy profit building roads. Not all got fucked.

Actually, it was the County Commissioners, but you got it right. Only the lower income folks got really hurt.

Regressive taxes are like that.

 

[MikeK]

The wage and benefit standards of virtually all non-union employers exist because of the intimidating prospect of union organizing. The union movement brought about universal improvement in wages, benefits, and working conditions.

That's a convenient, self serving argument. Unfortuantely there isn't any real evidence for it. The organized labor movement simply isn't that big. Organized labor makes up a mere 7% of the private sector labor force. It's pretty tough to make the argument that a mere 7% of the work force is dictating the pay and benefits of the other 92%

Educate yourself, then come back. Right now you are speaking from a position of pure ignorance.

Union Books:

Rebuilding Labor
Why Unions Matter
Unions At The Crossroads
The Transformation of U.S. Unions
Look For The Union Label
What Do We Need A Union For
The CIO
Infighting In The UAW

_________________________________________

Union Movies:

How Green Was My Valley
The Grapes Of Wrath
Native Land
On The Waterfront
The Pajama Game
Harlan County USA
The Organizer
Norma Rae
Matewan
The Molly Maguires
Hoffa


The union movement once dominated the American labor scene. It led to the birth of the American Middle Class and the most prosperous period in our history. I'm talking about the early days of the Teamsters, AFofL, ILU, CIO, ILGWU, IBEW, and dozens more strong and powerful unions, many of which have been undermined mainly by the ignorance and stupidity of a spoiled labor force combined with the kind of corrupt legislation that brings about such abominations as "Right-To-Work."

You and others who think like you are in for a very rude awakening when wages begin to fall, job benefits diminish, and the American working class begins to look more like it did back in the twenties and beyond. Right now you don't believe it can happen because you probably are in school or enjoying the twilight of the American dream and are blind to the handwriting on the wall.

 

[kwc57]

If I was debating Webster, I'd thank for helping with copy-and-paste.

Have you nothing? Or perhaps you can show where Webster's and I contradict?

Go hog wild.

Trying to deicde if you are being obtuse or just stupid. I'll go with stupid given the evidence so far.

Let me know what you decide since I'm on pins and needles in giddy anticipation of which you think it is.

I already made my decision.......but you weren't smart enough to pick up on it. Opinion confirmed.

 

[Koios]

Trying to deicde if you are being obtuse or just stupid. I'll go with stupid given the evidence so far.

Let me know what you decide since I'm on pins and needles in giddy anticipation of which you think it is.

I already made my decision.......but you weren't smart enough to pick up on it. Opinion confirmed.

The "so far" was a qualifier. Ask any grammar school teacher.

If fact, without it, your two sentences would be in contradiction. Noodle on it; it'll come to you.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

That make be true in theory, but it's very unlikely in practice. Even more so when you consider that a single employee has no leverage.

Interesting, first you admit I am right, then you dismiss it because it is rare. The perfect illustration of why union supporters and I will never agree, you refuse to acknowledge the exceptional individual.

You realize that the world isn't governed by theory, right? That's the problem with a lot of the "solutions" from the right. They're all based on this abstract model of how society should work than taking it as it actually is.

I absolutely refuse to "acknowledge the exceptional individual" because you state it as a universal truth. The reality is that most people don't have exceptional skills. They're just interchangeable cogs in machine. Even if some of them are slightly less productive, the trade-off is worthwhile if they'll work for less money. And that's true even in areas of the economy we'd think of as having highly specialized skill sets.

You realize that I can point to concrete, real world, examples to prove my point, don't you? Like the fact that teachers unions are actively fighting allowing schools to pay bonuses based on test scores and grades of schools? Do you honestly think that, if a teachers were individually offered a contract that paid incentives based on how many of their students made a certain GPA, or how well they preformed on the SAT, that not a single one of them would take the chance on getting more money?

By the way, if everyone was exceptional, no one would be. Even rdean knows that.

 

[Polk]

Very, very few people are exceptional. Hell, professional athletes aren't exceptional anymore.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Very, very few people are exceptional. Hell, professional athletes aren't exceptional anymore.

Tell that Ye Shiwen.

 

[Soulless65]

Very, very few people are exceptional. Hell, professional athletes aren't exceptional anymore.

So this guy isn't exceptional

 

[SniperFire]

Very, very few people are exceptional. Hell, professional athletes aren't exceptional anymore.

So this guy isn't exceptional

He's a cornball brother.

 

[Soulless65]

Very, very few people are exceptional. Hell, professional athletes aren't exceptional anymore.

So this guy isn't exceptional

He's a cornball brother.

I think you and I would agree that Rob Parker is an idiot that said that on first take a show that is surrounded by idiots. I don't know you watched the show Sniper but its one facepalm after another for me but that's my thoughts on the show. As for the topic its self I feel that a person who wants to work is going to start small but if he proves his worth he'll move up the ladder.

If not he can look for another job or start a business heck with podcasting like I do and if you keep at it maybe you can make a live off of it if your lucky of course

 

[MikeK]

You realize that I can point to concrete, real world, examples to prove my point, don't you? Like the fact that teachers unions are actively fighting allowing schools to pay bonuses based on test scores and grades of schools? Do you honestly think that, if a teachers were individually offered a contract that paid incentives based on how many of their students made a certain GPA, or how well they preformed on the SAT, that not a single one of them would take the chance on getting more money?

By the way, if everyone was exceptional, no one would be. Even rdean knows that.

I was a civil servant and I belonged to an employees' organization. But it was called a benevolent association, not a union, and we had no legal right to strike. In fact we could be prosecuted for striking or impeding City business in any way. We could address grievances to City commissioners, we could ask for improvement of working conditions and/or enhancements in salaries and benefits, and we could take our issues to court -- or we could resign. But that was all we could do.

Public (not private) school teachers are civil servants, not employees of for-private entities. Theirs is a completely different circumstance. Therefore they should not be legally permitted to strike or in any way interfere with the ongoing purpose of their occupation. So unless the teachers are threatening to strike, or are doing anything to interfere with the education of their students, I see nothing wrong with their asking for redress or enhancement of benefits. What harm can asking do?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You realize that I can point to concrete, real world, examples to prove my point, don't you? Like the fact that teachers unions are actively fighting allowing schools to pay bonuses based on test scores and grades of schools? Do you honestly think that, if a teachers were individually offered a contract that paid incentives based on how many of their students made a certain GPA, or how well they preformed on the SAT, that not a single one of them would take the chance on getting more money?

By the way, if everyone was exceptional, no one would be. Even rdean knows that.

I was a civil servant and I belonged to an employees' organization. But it was called a benevolent association, not a union, and we had no legal right to strike. In fact we could be prosecuted for striking or impeding City business in any way. We could address grievances to City commissioners, we could ask for improvement of working conditions and/or enhancements in salaries and benefits, and we could take our issues to court -- or we could resign. But that was all we could do.

Public (not private) school teachers are civil servants, not employees of for-private entities. Theirs is a completely different circumstance. Therefore they should not be legally permitted to strike or in any way interfere with the ongoing purpose of their occupation. So unless the teachers are threatening to strike, or are doing anything to interfere with the education of their students, I see nothing wrong with their asking for redress or enhancement of benefits. What harm can asking do?

Civil service laws already protect public employees from everything unions exist to protect workers from, why have a union on top of that?

As for strikes, ever here of blue flu?

 

[Gadawg73]

I never felt exploited when I received my first job.
And the next one and the one after that.

Just WTF are you talking about? Abusive? Who abuses employees in America? Abuse is a crime in all the states.
Wages are earned. Low skilled uneducated workers get what they are worth IN THE MARKET PLACE.

What was your first job? How much did you earn? And what were your social conditions at the time (live home with parents)?

And if you don't believe American workers were ever exploited and abused that is because of your abject ignorance of the history of the American labor movement. The remedy for that ignorance is to read some or all of the following books and to see all or most of the following movies -- each of which is based on verifiable facts. I can assure you that a little education will bring about a radical change in your attitude and perceptions.


Union books:

Rebuilding Labor
Why Unions Matter
Unions At The Crossroads
The Transformation of U.S. Unions
Look For The Union Label
What Do We Need A Union For
The CIO
Infighting In The UAW

______________________________________

Union Movies:

How Green Was My Valley
The Grapes Of Wrath
Native Land
On The Waterfront
The Pajama Game
Harlan County USA
The Organizer
Norma Rae
Matewan
The Molly Maguires
Hoffa

I left the house at age 17, 3 weeks after I graduated high school. My first job was working outside for a surveying company making $3 a hour. I then sold shoes for Kinney Shoes as friend of mine I played ball with worked there. Within a few months I was assistant manager of a mall store working 70 hours a week, salary. Then I sold insurance, commission only, for a year. Then I went back to college and worked for a law firm. I went to get my graduate degree, worked at the law firm from 1-6 pm; 2 nights a week and 8 hours every Saturday I sold shoes at a men's store in the mall and I mowed yards and did other yard work in between for extra cash.
I was promoted to #1 investigator in that law firm in 1981. 1982 I left and started my own detective agency. Got my graduate degree in 1985 . The rest is history.
This is the normal path of all business owners and people that make a lot of $$$ in America.
We earned it. No one gave us anything. Wealth is earned. I am not obligated to give you or anyone else any of my wealth.
Go get it yourself.
Spread the word.

 

[Bern80]

Educate yourself, then come back. Right now you are speaking from a position of pure ignorance.

Union Books:

Rebuilding Labor
Why Unions Matter
Unions At The Crossroads
The Transformation of U.S. Unions
Look For The Union Label
What Do We Need A Union For
The CIO
Infighting In The UAW

_________________________________________

Union Movies:

How Green Was My Valley
The Grapes Of Wrath
Native Land
On The Waterfront
The Pajama Game
Harlan County USA
The Organizer
Norma Rae
Matewan
The Molly Maguires
Hoffa


The union movement once dominated the American labor scene. It led to the birth of the American Middle Class and the most prosperous period in our history. I'm talking about the early days of the Teamsters, AFofL, ILU, CIO, ILGWU, IBEW, and dozens more strong and powerful unions, many of which have been undermined mainly by the ignorance and stupidity of a spoiled labor force combined with the kind of corrupt legislation that brings about such abominations as "Right-To-Work."

And how many of those books/movies are anti-union? When you only 'educate' yourself in an attempt to affirm your own biases, you aren't really educating yourself. Spoiled labor force? Are you serious? If anything the section of the labor that is spoiled is PRO-union. That's why they're spoiled in the first place. They are awarded something for whining and complaining about it 'till someone just gives in to shut 'em up as opposed to their actual merits and value of their labor. That is the definition of spoiled.

You and others who think like you are in for a very rude awakening when wages begin to fall, job benefits diminish, and the American working class begins to look more like it did back in the twenties and beyond. Right now you don't believe it can happen because you probably are in school or enjoying the twilight of the American dream and are blind to the handwriting on the wall.

It's pretty stupid to try to prove a point by assuming where I am in life when you absolutely no way of knowing. I am far removed from my school days (just turned 32). I have been in the labor force for ten years. Never in a union. I make a comfortable living doing what I do. I have worked for two employers in that time and have never been dissatisfied with my compensation because my education taught me basic principles of economics. Everyone would like to make more money. Just because I would like to doesn't mean my employer owes it to me. I understand that if I want more money the owenous is on ME to show I am worth more either by increasing my productivity or by cultivating a new skill set that is worth more in the market place.

The people in for the rude awakening are you. In fact you're already experiencing it to some extent. You're just wrong as to why. People like you assume that you are entitled to a certain standard of living and that it is the purpose of your employer to meet that. You assume (whether you realize it or not) that the value of skills is supposed to remain constant or only go up over time. A lot of the jobs from good 'ol union days simply are not needed today to the extent they were then. You believe a free transaction between the parties of labor and employer are fair when only the labor side is 100% satisfied. It is people like you that believe there is no owenous on yourselves to adapt and take action yourselves to achieve the goals you want to achieve in life. It is people like you who believe that it is the rest of societies job to assure the outcomes in life you desire that are in for the rude awakening.

 

[Polk]

Very, very few people are exceptional. Hell, professional athletes aren't exceptional anymore.

Tell that Ye Shiwen.

Ye Shiwen doesn't earn an income from swimming, so:
1. She's not relevant to a discussion about wages.
2. Technically speaking, she's still an amateur. Outside of a few major sports, even the highest levels of competition are amateur.

When I was going with the earlier point was this. Look at salaries in baseball. The average salary for the typical team increased on a pretty consistent basis over a long period. Since free agency started in the early 70s, salaries were up, up, up. Then in 2007, it stops. Average salaries are flat since then. Why? Because teams have realized they can just use cheaper replacements.

 

[Polk]

I never felt exploited when I received my first job.
And the next one and the one after that.

Just WTF are you talking about? Abusive? Who abuses employees in America? Abuse is a crime in all the states.
Wages are earned. Low skilled uneducated workers get what they are worth IN THE MARKET PLACE.

What was your first job? How much did you earn? And what were your social conditions at the time (live home with parents)?

And if you don't believe American workers were ever exploited and abused that is because of your abject ignorance of the history of the American labor movement. The remedy for that ignorance is to read some or all of the following books and to see all or most of the following movies -- each of which is based on verifiable facts. I can assure you that a little education will bring about a radical change in your attitude and perceptions.


Union books:

Rebuilding Labor
Why Unions Matter
Unions At The Crossroads
The Transformation of U.S. Unions
Look For The Union Label
What Do We Need A Union For
The CIO
Infighting In The UAW

______________________________________

Union Movies:

How Green Was My Valley
The Grapes Of Wrath
Native Land
On The Waterfront
The Pajama Game
Harlan County USA
The Organizer
Norma Rae
Matewan
The Molly Maguires
Hoffa

I left the house at age 17, 3 weeks after I graduated high school. My first job was working outside for a surveying company making $3 a hour. I then sold shoes for Kinney Shoes as friend of mine I played ball with worked there. Within a few months I was assistant manager of a mall store working 70 hours a week, salary. Then I sold insurance, commission only, for a year. Then I went back to college and worked for a law firm. I went to get my graduate degree, worked at the law firm from 1-6 pm; 2 nights a week and 8 hours every Saturday I sold shoes at a men's store in the mall and I mowed yards and did other yard work in between for extra cash.
I was promoted to #1 investigator in that law firm in 1981. 1982 I left and started my own detective agency. Got my graduate degree in 1985 . The rest is history.
This is the normal path of all business owners and people that make a lot of $$$ in America.
We earned it. No one gave us anything. Wealth is earned. I am not obligated to give you or anyone else any of my wealth.
Go get it yourself.
Spread the word.

Are you kidding? The much more typical path for those who are well-to-do is:
tony private school -> elite university -> job (often build off of family contact)

 

[Bern80]

Are you kidding? The much more typical path for those who are well-to-do is:
tony private school -> elite university -> job (often build off of family contact)

Not true. Read 'The Millionaire Next Door" sometime. Lots of interesting statistics/characteristics of wealthy people. Hint: One of them is NOT they all, or even a significant majority, went to private schools. Private schools don't teach the ideas and concepts wealthy people understand that contribute to wealth accumulation any more than public schools do, (don't do actually). You need to be objective enough to recognize your argument for what it is; an excuse. So you or someone else can say 'well the reason I'm not wealthy is because I didn't have the luck of attending private school'.

 

[Polk]

As much as people don't want to believe it, we live in a highly stratified society. Someone born into an upper-income family who drops out of school is more likely to remain upper-income than someone from the lower class with an post-bachelor's degree is to enter the top of the distribution.

 

[Bern80]

As much as people don't want to believe it, we live in a highly stratified society. Someone born into an upper-income family who drops out of school is more likely to remain upper-income than someone from the lower class with an post-bachelor's degree is to enter the top of the distribution.

You're changing your tune a bit Polk. Regardless, where is your evidence for this theory? It doesn't even pass a basic logic test if you play it out. Said rich kid drops out of school. Then what? Someone decides to hire them for high paying position anyway, KNOWING they don't even have a degree? Or maybe daddy does them a favor and gets them a job in his business or some friends you might argue. Why would anyone with any business sense do that when they also know the person hasn't completed their education and has no experience in what they were hired for? Does it happen maybe, sure? But not enough to make the claims you make. Rich dad didnt' become succesful by a habit of letting emotion blind them into hiring people, family or not, that are wholly unqualified to do a job. You're just making yet another excuse.

More anecdotal evidence. My dad made low-mid 6 figures his working career. So did his three brothers. NONE OF THEM went to private schools in their elemetary years or college. How to get rich isn't something that is taught just in private schools. They really aren't taught in any schools, which is unfortuante. Rather they are principles handed down from generation to generation. The people that aren't fortunate enough to have that kind of upbringing are the people that insist everyone is doomed financially if they aren't protected by a union.