The Right Wing had better be right about this "Deep State" stuff.

[gipper]

yanno the thing that bugs me the most is, if there's any truth TO this whole deep state thing, then WE are a product of it......

Revisit the Church Hearings. The CIA was asked directly if they had any agents working for the American media. The CIA couldn't answer the question directly and emphatically, no. That tells me all I need to know.

It should be stated that the Church Committee was done in FUCKING 1975. Check out Operation Mockingbird. Most Americans have no clue.

You think maybe they've gotten more sophisticated since then?

Well, we know they have, thanks in no small part to Julian Assange.

My guess is most if not all of the MSM is controlled in some manner by Uncle.

That would be my guess as well.

This is so obvious yet most Americans don’t seem to notice. It was hilarious when The Don launched two separate attacks on Syria based on bogus intelligence, yet the MSM that shits on him every day backed the military action.

 

[Tehon]

Revisit the Church Hearings. The CIA was asked directly if they had any agents working for the American media. The CIA couldn't answer the question directly and emphatically, no. That tells me all I need to know.

It should be stated that the Church Committee was done in FUCKING 1975. Check out Operation Mockingbird. Most Americans have no clue.

You think maybe they've gotten more sophisticated since then?

Well, we know they have, thanks in no small part to Julian Assange.

My guess is most if not all of the MSM is controlled in some manner by Uncle.

That would be my guess as well.

This is so obvious yet most Americans don’t seem to notice. It was hilarious when The Don launched two separate attacks on Syria based on bogus intelligence, yet the MSM that shits on him every day backed the military action.

Opinion -The World: What is Really Happening


"If you want to understand what is really happening in the world today, a mid-ranking official named Ian Henderson is vastly more important to you than Theresa May. You will not, however, find anything about Henderson in the vast majority of corporate and state media outlets. "

 

[Mac1958]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

 

[Olde Europe]

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.

It's time for impeachment.

Sure, there is something to that.

On the other hand, prosecutors who aren't completely out of their mind would never, ever charge ahead based merely on a "report", without scrutinizing the underlying evidence. That's why the House Judiciary Committee is requesting same be handed over. We'll have to wait and see how that is going.

Moreover, impeachment is, in relevant part, a political process, and therefore political questions do play an outsize role. Impeaching Trump with no chance to remove him, while handing a to-the-bones corrupt GOP complete control of government in 2020, is so obviously a failed endeavor, Dems would have to be suicidal to engage in it. So yes, the precondition for impeachment is the careful crafting of both a solid case AND a compelling narrative to garner public support, and Pelosi seems to understand that game far better than any of those bitching from the sideline.

I, for one, hope Pelosi will continue to swat down the hysterics, and continue to build up the momentum she and Nadler need to get it right.

 

[iceberg]

If a prosecutor must allow to the defense other reasonable and plausible motives for an action.

You are again lying, nowhere does Mueller say other motives are reasonable upon consideration. He makes no judgement on their quality.

Why would Mueller allow for other motives if they were inherently unreasonable?

Because THAT IS WHAT MUST BE CONSIDERED IN THE PROCEEDINGS OF THE CASE. That is what Congress must contemplate in the trial to establish guilt. Duh

Aw look -- you avoided the rest of my post,.
We both know why

Never mind the fact we're talking about a prosecutor deciding if he can demonstrate intent necessary to conclude a crime was committed..
Mueller decided he could not.

If a prosecutor must allow to the defense other reasonable and plausible motives for an action, how can a rational person conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that said action was undertaken with the -one- motive required for that act to be a crime?

We've been over that inluding specifics of Trumps Obstruction that demonstrate a clear corrupt intent to anyone half-sane

Please cite the text of the report where Mueller agrees with you

The only time Mueller talks about not being able to bring charges is when he is talking it being against DOJ guidelines and Constitution.

There is not a single place he says that evidence of the case is insufficient to bring charges.


How many times does that need to be repeated for you to get this very simple fact?

Are you too stupid or too dishonest? There doesn’t seem to be any other options here.

then you must be smarter than every sitting democrat who would love trump out of office. why not go crash a congressional session and let them know how stupid they are and show them your wisdom.

bring donuts. it will help your cause

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

 

[Mac1958]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

I wish I had the magical power to transform politicians and partisans into people who simply want the complete, comprehensive and unvarnished facts, without spin or deflection or distortion, so that we could carefully examine what we actually know happened and discuss any criminality.

That, of course, would require the energy of a thousand exploding suns, but it sure would be nice.

While I'm actually warming up to the idea of an impeachment so that all accusations, claims and assumptions can be put to the test by the disinfectant of sunlight, I have to admit I know it would just be another circus of liars and lunatics.
.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

I wish I had the magical power to transform politicians and partisans into people who simply want the complete, comprehensive and unvarnished facts, without spin or deflection or distortion, so that we could carefully examine what we actually know happened and discuss any criminality.

That, of course, would require the energy of a thousand exploding suns, but it sure would be nice.

While I'm actually warming up to the idea of an impeachment so that all accusations, claims and assumptions can be put to the test by the disinfectant of sunlight, I have to admit I know it would just be another circus of liars.
.

But the discovery process would bring facts to light. And then you can look at them and decide for yourself.

 

[Mac1958]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

I wish I had the magical power to transform politicians and partisans into people who simply want the complete, comprehensive and unvarnished facts, without spin or deflection or distortion, so that we could carefully examine what we actually know happened and discuss any criminality.

That, of course, would require the energy of a thousand exploding suns, but it sure would be nice.

While I'm actually warming up to the idea of an impeachment so that all accusations, claims and assumptions can be put to the test by the disinfectant of sunlight, I have to admit I know it would just be another circus of liars.
.

But the discovery process would bring facts to light. And then you can look at them and decide for yourself.

Yes, and that would be the goal. Hopefully the Articles of Impeachment would at least be a good starting point.
.

 

[Redfish]

Why do you assume its political? Why is uncovering the truth about an attempted coup political?

What is NOT political at this point?

If it's a story that is being discussed and debated by politicians, pundits, politicos or partisans, all conversation, accusations, assumptions, facts and information is suspect unless and until corroborated and verified independently. I believe nothing based solely on the "word" of one of these people.

And part of that is this: I have absolutely no doubt that, if the parties were reversed for any of the last dozen or so "investigations" and "bombshells" and "scandals", the two ends of the spectrum would be behaving in precisely 180 degrees the opposite way. One side accusing, the other laughing.
.

you are somewhat correct in that this entire thing is political bullshit. The point is that when Bill Clinton was investigated, his guilt was established by the Starr team. In this case Heir Mewler is saying that he cannot exonerate Trump, exoneration is not the job of a prosecutor, his job is either to make a case for prosecution or not.

What he said is effectively " I know he is guilty of something because I dont like him, but I can't find any evidence of guilt." It was a witch hunt that failed and the dems and their media cronies can't get over it.

Horseshit, thats not what he said.

He said that he didn't indict Trump because he couldn't and he belives that it is Congressional job to hold POTUS accountable for abuses of office through the Constitutional mechanism known as the impeachment proceedings.

It was BECAUSE of Starr and his over-reach that the powers of the Independent Special Investigator were recalibrated.

you spend too much time getting indoctrinated by CNN and MSNBC. Mueller's job was not to prove Trump or anyone else innocent, his job was to investigate whether Russia had interfered with our election in 2016. His team of democrat lawyers and hillary donors instead made it an attempt to undo the 2016 election, BUT they found nothing, no collusion, no obstruction, no crimes by Trump or anyone in his campaign. AND theY totally ignored the well known Russian collusion with the hillary campaign, the fake dossier, the fraudulent FISA warrants, and the attempted coup by high ranking members of the FBI and DOJ.

What exactly is congress going to hold Trump accountable for? Mueller looked for 2 years and found nothing, congressional investigations found nothing.

Hint: "He beat Hillary" is not grounds for impeachment.

if the dems persist in this they will ensure another term for Trump and a GOP control of both houses of congress, even senile Pelosi knows that, but she is unable to stop the idiot faction in her party.

 

[Redfish]

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

I wish I had the magical power to transform politicians and partisans into people who simply want the complete, comprehensive and unvarnished facts, without spin or deflection or distortion, so that we could carefully examine what we actually know happened and discuss any criminality.

That, of course, would require the energy of a thousand exploding suns, but it sure would be nice.

While I'm actually warming up to the idea of an impeachment so that all accusations, claims and assumptions can be put to the test by the disinfectant of sunlight, I have to admit I know it would just be another circus of liars.
.

But the discovery process would bring facts to light. And then you can look at them and decide for yourself.

Yes, and that would be the goal. Hopefully the Articles of Impeachment would at least be a good starting point.
.

wrong, those facts will come to light via the Barr investigations, the Horowitz investigation, and then we will all know what actually happened, an impeachment hearing in the house would be a circus led by the dem clowns like Nadler and Swalwell.

 

[Redfish]

He said that he didn't indict Trump because he couldn't....

...because the necessary corrupt intent could not be clearly demonstrated.

Mueller HAS JUST TESTIFIED to tell you straight up - you are full of shit.

The only reason he didn't indict was because he believed DOJ guidelines prohibited him from doing so.


"under longstanding department policy a president cannot be charged with a federal crime while he is in office. That is unconstitutional. Even if the charge is kept under seal and hidden from public view, that too is prohibited. The special counsel's office is part of the Department of Justice and by regulation it was bound by that department policy."

- Mueller


Mueller breaks silence, does not want to testify, says charging Trump 'not an option'

LOL, you are such an idiot. He didnt indict because he found no indictable offences. Mueller doesn't want to testify because he doesn't want to deal with questions like: why was your team made up of only democrats who donated to the hillary campaign? When did you know that no crimes had been committed? Why didn't you investigate the fake Russian dossier? Why didn't you investigate the bases for the FISA warrants? Do you understand that your job was to investigate Russian interference? Why did you not do that?

 

[Redfish]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum.

So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically.

Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.
.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.

It's time for impeachment.

there were no "plain acts of obstruction" listed in the report. zero, nada, zilch.

once again: "I dont like him and he beat hillary" is not grounds for impeachment.

 

[Redfish]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

So you would rather that congress spend the next year or two on this bullshit rather than doing their jobs and working on infrastructure, the border, healthcare, the economy, trade, and the budget? Geez dude, WTF?

 

[Mac1958]

So you would rather that congress spend the next year or two on this bullshit rather than doing their jobs and working on infrastructure, the border, healthcare, the economy, trade, and the budget? Geez dude, WTF?

The above actions would require communication and collaboration, currently not allowed by either party. As we both know.

All these people are good for at this point is accusations, rumor-mongering and partisan investigations.
.

 

[Redfish]

So you would rather that congress spend the next year or two on this bullshit rather than doing their jobs and working on infrastructure, the border, healthcare, the economy, trade, and the budget? Geez dude, WTF?

The above actions would require communication and collaboration, currently not allowed by either party. As we both know.

All these people are good for at this point is accusations, rumor-mongering and partisan investigations.
.

yes, and its a sad state of affairs in the US congress today. If the divisions in the country are not resolved or at least tolerated, then this country is doomed to collapse, divide, and cease to exist. A house divided cannot stand, we are on the brink.

 

[Ringel05]

So here we go, I guess.

This is no longer going to be some fevered conspiracy story born of one of Mark Levin's fevered hyper-partisan conspiracy books. It's no longer going to be the foundation of President Hannity's hyper-partisan radio and teevee shows, buttressed by the manic "reporting" of his small band of like-minded "investigative reporters" (Out-of-Control Sean Hannity Thumbs His Nose at Fox News Bosses).

It's no longer going to be this alternate-universe "blockbuster" narrative that a relatively small group of people know like the back of their hand, as if they're convinced that "Breaking Bad" or "Game of Thrones" are documentaries.

You're accusing the American government, all the way to the top, of conspiring to spy on and bring down a presidential candidate and an American President. Key players in this accusation include a Special Counsel, a former Director of National Intelligence, a former FBI Director, former Secretary of State and a former President. Not to mention any number of lower-level government conspirators. The Deep State.

Bottom line: If you folks are right about this whole thing, it's a huge, historic story and must be addressed with historic attention, seriousness and care. If it's just a product of your fevered alternate universe, you deserve whatever you get.

Hopefully we'll soon know, once and for all, what actually happened. If anything.
.

The so called "Deep State" isn't some vast, secret, behind the scenes controlling SPECTER like organization like the nut jobs who have watched too many Bond movies want us to think. It's more a collection of often small, often at odds groups, good old boy networks, individuals and party policies attempting to keep their chosen party and/or individuals in power and these people will do just about anything to eliminate a threat to that status quo, Trump has upset the status quo.

 

[AntonToo]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

I wish I had the magical power to transform politicians and partisans into people who simply want the complete, comprehensive and unvarnished facts, without spin or deflection or distortion, so that we could carefully examine what we actually know happened and discuss any criminality.

That, of course, would require the energy of a thousand exploding suns, but it sure would be nice.

While I'm actually warming up to the idea of an impeachment so that all accusations, claims and assumptions can be put to the test by the disinfectant of sunlight, I have to admit I know it would just be another circus of liars and lunatics.
.

Hey I have an idea - why don't you stop spending your time bitching about everyone and go do something really crazy like READ THE FACTS laid out in the report and make up your own mind?

 

[Mac1958]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

And,in doing so, will have great powers of discovery. The dems, knowing the senate will not convict regardless, basically have a choice of whether or not this marginally increased power is worth it, and if they can accomplish the same political goal without the impeachment process. We know what Pelosi thinks.

I wish I had the magical power to transform politicians and partisans into people who simply want the complete, comprehensive and unvarnished facts, without spin or deflection or distortion, so that we could carefully examine what we actually know happened and discuss any criminality.

That, of course, would require the energy of a thousand exploding suns, but it sure would be nice.

While I'm actually warming up to the idea of an impeachment so that all accusations, claims and assumptions can be put to the test by the disinfectant of sunlight, I have to admit I know it would just be another circus of liars and lunatics.
.

Hey I have an idea - why not something really crazy like READ THE FACTS laid out in the report and making up your own mind?

Super, thanks!
.

 

[AntonToo]

As with most things in life, the degree of actionable obstruction probably lies along a spectrum. So now it's a matter of whether Pelosi thinks it's wise politically. Politics, political calculation and political advantage. That's all that matters now.

Thats right - those damn Democrats need to stop playing politics and start holding Trump accountable for the plain acts of Obstruction detailed in the report.
It's time for impeachment.

Then let's get to it.

I'd like to see what the Articles say. The Articles of Impeachment, and the impeachment process, are where the Democrats will have to boil this thing down to specific charges and specific evidence. Then any bullshit and noise floating around, from either party, will have to survive the light.
.

So you would rather that congress spend the next year or two on this bullshit rather than doing their jobs and working on infrastructure, the border, healthcare, the economy, trade, and the budget? Geez dude, WTF?

Spending a year or two? This would be done in months.

Besides, we've had 2 impeachemnts before and MORE things got done by the Congress and the being-impeached-President not LESS.