the Roman Catholic Church is NOT Christian!

[ninja007]

you mean early catholic support, not from the bible, remember? you also mean your popery's misapplied/false interpretations of it not found anywhere in the bible. If you like we can go over them again one by one for the purpose of this thread and its participants and lurkers. Let us start with purgatory. What is the evidence according to rc's about a purgatory.

Purgatory: Purification after death

Catholic theology (based on scripture) there is the final purification after death, which involves discomfort, but God may assist those in this purification process.

Purgatory was a part of religion in Jesus' day as referenced in pre-Christian Jewish books such as Maccabees and the Life of Adam and Eve. Even in modern times Orthodox Jews pray the Mourner's Qaddish for eleven months for the purification of a loved one who has died.

Only Protestants deny purification after death, apparently giving no thought, or dismissing 1 Corinthians 3:12-15. Jesus (Matthew 12:32) speaks of sins that will or will not be forgiven in the age to come. Matthew 5 we have Jesus teaching us that if we have not reconciled with our fellow man before we see God, God will hold us accountable for the wrong we did them until we have paid the last penny.

I understand you believe Christ paid for all sins two thousand years ago, even ones not yet committed. I understand you also believe that man retains his sinful nature here on earth, but not in heaven. I am not clear on how you see people going from sin to being pure in heaven without first being purified.

Maccabees isn't Scripture as it was not Holy Spirit inspired. It also has some very precarious teachings in it closely related to the occult. You referencing Jews AFTER Jesus' ascension and finished work shows your lack of understanding what Jesus did for us at Calvary. If you point to Jewish law and tradition after Jesus came then you are completely missing the point. You cannot mix law with grace, old with new and grace vs works.

 

[ninja007]

thanks Meri. Now we can talk about this respectfully. To answer your last question- we are ALREADY purified through Jesus and His imputed righteousness when we accept His sacrifice as a free gift. For example, Believer's are changed in the "twinkling" of an eye BEFORE we enter Heaven at the pretrib rapture- those who are dead and those still alive at His coming as we meet Him in the clouds in the air.

If you believe in the mystery of the eucharist (real presence), why is it so hard to believe God cannot change us perfectly just before we enter heaven?

Are you unaware that you just described Purgatory? Purgatory is that purification process that takes place in the "twinkling of an eye" before a person enters heaven. The only difference I see is that Catholics acknowledge that time is very different in heaven (a thousand years is like a day; a day is like a thousand years) and that we do not know how to measure the heavenly "twinkling of an eye" by the earthly clock.

So, like Catholics, you do believe in a purification process? You just don't care for the term purge/purgatory which is synonymous with purification?

no, no, its not us being purified- its our works being judged for our rewards.

 

[Meriweather]

I go by what the Bible teaches is justification- which is "our" version- the correct one as taught by Jesus Himself.

Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification:

• We are adopted as sons and daughters (Romans 8:15)
• We become fellow-heirs with Christ (v. 17)
• We are united with Christ so that we become one with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17)
• We are henceforth "in Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and He in us (Colossians 1:27)

How Justification and Sanctification Differ

Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:

• Justification imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner's account (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
• Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer's state (Romans 6:19).
• Justification is an event, sanctification a process.

Justification by Faith

Again, you make my point that people need to reference Catholic sources which explain what Catholics believe instead of linking to Protestant sources of what Catholics believe. Protestants can explain their own beliefs at their own sites. If that site explains Protestant beliefs, not Catholic beliefs, then I understand its value to you.

 

[ninja007]

I go by what the Bible teaches is justification- which is "our" version- the correct one as taught by Jesus Himself.

Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification:

• We are adopted as sons and daughters (Romans 8:15)
• We become fellow-heirs with Christ (v. 17)
• We are united with Christ so that we become one with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17)
• We are henceforth "in Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and He in us (Colossians 1:27)

How Justification and Sanctification Differ

Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:

• Justification imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner's account (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
• Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer's state (Romans 6:19).
• Justification is an event, sanctification a process.

Justification by Faith

Again, you make my point that people need to reference Catholic sources which explain what Catholics believe instead of linking to Protestant sources of what Catholics believe. Protestants can explain their own beliefs at their own sites. If that site explains Protestant beliefs, not Catholic beliefs, then I understand its value to you.

i understand what catholics believe but it is not correct because you get your teaching from popes who were wrong in the first place. If you compare the bible to the catechism you will see the differences. I have a catechism in front of me as we speak btw.

 

[Meriweather]

Maccabees isn't Scripture as it was not Holy Spirit inspired. It also has some very precarious teachings in it closely related to the occult. You referencing Jews AFTER Jesus' ascension and finished work shows your lack of understanding what Jesus did for us at Calvary. If you point to Jewish law and tradition after Jesus came then you are completely missing the point. You cannot mix law with grace, old with new and grace vs works.

I understand YOU don't consider Maccabees scripture, which is why I referred to it and The Life of Adam and Eve as Jewish books, not scripture.

Do you believe in purification after death or not? Your last post indicated you did--but that you don't like calling it purgatory. Fine, call it anything you like, but it doesn't change the fact you agree with Catholic teaching on this.

 

[Mr.Right]

I go by what the Bible teaches is justification- which is "our" version- the correct one as taught by Jesus Himself.

Therefore, because of justification, believers not only are perfectly free from any charge of guilt (Romans 8:33) but also have the full merit of Christ reckoned to their personal account (Romans 5:17). Here are the forensic realities that flow out of justification:

• We are adopted as sons and daughters (Romans 8:15)
• We become fellow-heirs with Christ (v. 17)
• We are united with Christ so that we become one with Him (1 Corinthians 6:17)
• We are henceforth "in Christ" (Galatians 3:27) and He in us (Colossians 1:27)

How Justification and Sanctification Differ

Justification is distinct from sanctification because in justification God does not make the sinner righteous; He declares that person righteous (Romans 3:28; Galatians 2:16). Notice how justification and sanctification are distinct from one another:

• Justification imputes Christ's righteousness to the sinner's account (Romans 4:11b); sanctification imparts righteousness to the sinner personally and practically (Romans 6:1-7; 8:11-14).
• Justification takes place outside sinners and changes their standing (Romans 5:1-2, sanctification is internal and changes the believer's state (Romans 6:19).
• Justification is an event, sanctification a process.

Justification by Faith

Again, you make my point that people need to reference Catholic sources which explain what Catholics believe instead of linking to Protestant sources of what Catholics believe. Protestants can explain their own beliefs at their own sites. If that site explains Protestant beliefs, not Catholic beliefs, then I understand its value to you.

Are you saying that only catholics can understand and debate Catholic teachings? That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

 

[Meriweather]

i understand what catholics believe but it is not correct because you get your teaching from popes who were wrong in the first place. If you compare the bible to the catechism you will see the differences. I have a catechism in front of me as we speak btw.

If you have a Catholic Catechism in front of you, excellent. Don't forget to read the footnotes which will give Scripture references for each teaching.

 

[Mr.Right]

Maccabees isn't Scripture as it was not Holy Spirit inspired. It also has some very precarious teachings in it closely related to the occult. You referencing Jews AFTER Jesus' ascension and finished work shows your lack of understanding what Jesus did for us at Calvary. If you point to Jewish law and tradition after Jesus came then you are completely missing the point. You cannot mix law with grace, old with new and grace vs works.

I understand YOU don't consider Maccabees scripture, which is why I referred to it and The Life of Adam and Eve as Jewish books, not scripture.

Do you believe in purification after death or not? Your last post indicated you did--but that you don't like calling it purgatory. Fine, call it anything you like, but it doesn't change the fact you agree with Catholic teaching on this.

Now you are claiming that he agrees with you, even though it's perfectly clear that he does not? You've left orbit, for sure.

 

[Meriweather]

Are you saying that only catholics can understand and debate Catholic teachings? That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

You misunderstand. I am asking you to present Catholic sources for Catholic teachings. Then we can debate. It makes no sense for a Catholic to debate something that isn't even a Catholic teaching. The best we can do is inform you, "That is not a Catholic teaching," and move on. Just because a non-Catholic site says, "This is a Catholic teaching," does not make it so.

 

[Meriweather]

Now you are claiming that he agrees with you, even though it's perfectly clear that he does not? You've left orbit, for sure.

Kevin (ninja) said he believes there is a purification process that takes place in a twinkling of an eye, before we enter heaven. That is a description/profession of belief in purgatory as purgatory is the purification process that takes place before we enter heaven.

Why not rejoice that there is an agreement on this?

 

[Meriweather]

no, no, its not us being purified- its our works being judged for our rewards.

So you enter heaven lacking purity? I am not speaking of judgment or rewards. I am speaking of humans being in an impure state (due to sin) in this life. When we die, are we purified of all the impurities of this life, or do we enter heaven in an impure state?

 

[Mr.Right]

Are you saying that only catholics can understand and debate Catholic teachings? That would be pretty silly, wouldn't it?

You misunderstand. I am asking you to present Catholic sources for Catholic teachings. Then we can debate. It makes no sense for a Catholic to debate something that isn't even a Catholic teaching. The best we can do is inform you, "That is not a Catholic teaching," and move on. Just because a non-Catholic site says, "This is a Catholic teaching," does not make it so.

The only thing that matters is what God's word says. Catholic teachings do not conform to what the Bible says. Nothing you say will ever change that. Take pergatory, for an example. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. He said that today you will be with Me in paradise. Which means he did not go to purgatory. How do you explain this?

 

[JakeStarkey]

He does not have to, you do, Mr.Right.

Meri has owned you and the lion from the get go.

 

[ninja007]

no, no, its not us being purified- its our works being judged for our rewards.

So you enter heaven lacking purity? I am not speaking of judgment or rewards. I am speaking of humans being in an impure state (due to sin) in this life. When we die, are we purified of all the impurities of this life, or do we enter heaven in an impure state?

we are no longer in the flesh after we die. Only our soul/spirit enter Heaven. Our bodies are not reunited with our souls till the millennium. Our bodies are in the grave where they rot.

 

[ninja007]

no, no, its not us being purified- its our works being judged for our rewards.

So you enter heaven lacking purity? I am not speaking of judgment or rewards. I am speaking of humans being in an impure state (due to sin) in this life. When we die, are we purified of all the impurities of this life, or do we enter heaven in an impure state?

we have all the purity we need in Christ Jesus. You think we enter Heaven in our flesh?

 

[ninja007]

He does not have to, you do, Mr.Right.

Meri has owned you and the lion from the get go.

Jake the fake Christian, hello.

 

[Meriweather]

The only thing that matters is what God's word says. Catholic teachings do not conform to what the Bible says. Nothing you say will ever change that. Take pergatory, for an example. Remember what Jesus said to the thief on the cross. He said that today you will be with Me in paradise. Which means he did not go to purgatory. How do you explain this?

Do you believe the thief entered heaven in an impure state?

Again we are faced with the time issue. What is an earthly day in heaven? We also have to consider that after the resurrection Jesus said he had not yet ascended to the Father. This has some scholars presenting the case for paradise not referencing heaven, but perhaps a waiting place (paradise also references a garden) before one enters heaven. Purgatory/Purification is said to take place before entering heaven. Is Paradise synonymous with heaven--or maybe not?

 

[Mr.Right]

no, no, its not us being purified- its our works being judged for our rewards.

So you enter heaven lacking purity? I am not speaking of judgment or rewards. I am speaking of humans being in an impure state (due to sin) in this life. When we die, are we purified of all the impurities of this life, or do we enter heaven in an impure state?

we have all the purity we need in Christ Jesus. You think we enter Heaven in our flesh?

Think she'll answer me about the thief on the cross, and how he went straight to Heaven?

 

[JakeStarkey]

He does not have to, you do, Mr.Right.

Meri has owned you and the lion from the get go.

Jake the fake Christian, hello.

Says the fake Christian, with whom Mr.Right agrees. I demolished his nonsense yesterday.

 

[Meriweather]

we have all the purity we need in Christ Jesus. You think we enter Heaven in our flesh?

"All the purity we need"? One is either pure or not. There is no in between, just like one is either pregnant or not. Jesus taught that sin comes from the heart and is acted upon by the flesh. Do you believe we have pure hearts right now? Do you believe we need to have pure hearts before entering heaven?