The Russia-Ukraine Conflict Can Only be Settled Through Negotiation

[CrusaderFrank]

Are you saying Russia didn’t lie about their intentions before the invasion?

I’m saying you’re in Bizzaroland and refuse to acknowledge the WEF and BlackRock directing their Ukrainian puppets

 

[SavannahMann]

I’m saying you’re in Bizzaroland and refuse to acknowledge the WEF and BlackRock directing their Ukrainian puppets

So you won’t admit Russia lied before the invasion. An established fact. How about the lies to justify the invasion since?

 

[Seymour Flops]

Ukraine may, probably will, fall. But make no mistake. Russia wants it all. Every square centimeter of Ukraine.

It isn’t a bad analogy. It is a micro version of the macro we are talking about. An invasion is a robbery writ large. People using force to take something that is not theirs to take. Yes that is a little simplistic. But that is what is going on.

Armed thugs coming to take what isn’t theirs. It doesn’t matter if you are a kid in school where the bully wants your lunch money, or a leader of your people. Thugs taking what is yours sits wrong.

All right, then. Let's torture your micro analogy further, to make it more accurately match the macro.

These armed thugs didn't just walk in and set up camp. They walked in and killed two of your children and five of your siblings, nieces and nephews when they tried to stop the thugs. You and your remaining family holed up in the house and started shooting back. You got a few of the thugs, but they are getting the best of it, and have more reinforcements coming in.

Local law enforcement is useless, due to being headed by a senile and corrupt old geezer. Your neighbors have announced that they support you and are even sporting "Support the Mann Family" t-shirts and flags. They are sending you guns and ammo, but will not fight for you.

Your realistic options are for your family to be wiped out and the thugs own your house, or accept help from a new head of law enforcment willing to help both sides settle the conflict. The settlement will mean you losing one third of your house's land. Which will you choose? The lives of your family members, or the part of the yard where you were planning to plant roses tomatoes next spring?

It is interesting that you want the President to sit them down and make them accept it. That’s happened in history. See Czechoslovakia. Britain and France gave it away to Germany. To get peace in our time.

Peace that was rather short lived.

Because those places are in Europe, not because peace is bad idea. Eighty percent of the time, Europeans are as docile as farm animals. Once in a while a country goes ferrel and needs to be put down. Let other Europeans deal with that.

I don't "want" Trump to sit them down and make them accept it. I wan't the U.S. to stay tf out of European conflicts. Given that we can't seem to mind out own beezwax, Trump's peace plan is the next best thing.

As for suspending elections. It’s kind of hard to hold an organized election while bombs are falling in your cities. I can’t think of a single nation that has done that. Everyone has held off on elections until the war was over. In Britain, Churchill was voted out almost the minute the war was over.

Ukraine could hold elections if they Zelensky wanted to.

It doesn’t matter if we are talking about your property line, the boundary of some criminal gangs territory, the borders between counties, or states. Nobody willingly gives up their territory, their land, without s fight.

Fight to the death for all the men, women and children of Ukraine makes more sense than a negotiated settlement?

Even here in the US states fought out where exactly the boundary was for years in court. Texas and Oklahoma have been to the Supreme Court more than once arguing about borders.

Yes, they will settle that conflict without bloodshed under the guidance of a higher authority.

You and others argue that we have no business in this dispute. In other threads you lionize Rittenhouse. He was in another state from his. With a weapon he never should have had. Doing what nobody asked him to do. Yet he is a hero for standing up to thugs while Ukraine should be curb stomped by Russia because. Um. Something I’m sure.

I never said Rittenhouse was a hero. I only said that he wasn't a murderer, but a person who defended himself. He was stupid to be cut off from his group like he was, and he was too young to be in the fight in the first place. His group had superiority in weapons and skills, which is why even in his bad situation, Rittenhouse managed to shoot his way out.

Another invalid analogy.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Western Europe is allied to the US.

 

[JohnDB]

Here's a video discussing the economy and internal turmoil in Russia...

 

[Ringo]

 

[SavannahMann]

All right, then. Let's torture your micro analogy further, to make it more accurately match the macro.

These armed thugs didn't just walk in and set up camp. They walked in and killed two of your children and five of your siblings, nieces and nephews when they tried to stop the thugs. You and your remaining family holed up in the house and started shooting back. You got a few of the thugs, but they are getting the best of it, and have more reinforcements coming in.

Local law enforcement is useless, due to being headed by a senile and corrupt old geezer. Your neighbors have announced that they support you and are even sporting "Support the Mann Family" t-shirts and flags. They are sending you guns and ammo, but will not fight for you.

Your realistic options are for your family to be wiped out and the thugs own your house, or accept help from a new head of law enforcment willing to help both sides settle the conflict. The settlement will mean you losing one third of your house's land. Which will you choose? The lives of your family members, or the part of the yard where you were planning to plant roses tomatoes next spring?

Because those places are in Europe, not because peace is bad idea. Eighty percent of the time, Europeans are as docile as farm animals. Once in a while a country goes ferrel and needs to be put down. Let other Europeans deal with that.

I don't "want" Trump to sit them down and make them accept it. I wan't the U.S. to stay tf out of European conflicts. Given that we can't seem to mind out own beezwax, Trump's peace plan is the next best thing.



Ukraine could hold elections if they Zelensky wanted to.

Fight to the death for all the men, women and children of Ukraine makes more sense than a negotiated settlement?

Yes, they will settle that conflict without bloodshed under the guidance of a higher authority.

I never said Rittenhouse was a hero. I only said that he wasn't a murderer, but a person who defended himself. He was stupid to be cut off from his group like he was, and he was too young to be in the fight in the first place. His group had superiority in weapons and skills, which is why even in his bad situation, Rittenhouse managed to shoot his way out.

Another invalid analogy.

The principles of a Just War go back in time to Saint Augustine. It has been added to and refined since that time by other great thinkers. But it hasn’t really changed much since first proposed by the famous man.

There are certain conditions that must be met for a Just War. First, the war must be at the order of the Sovereign, or as adjusted to modern Governments, the leader of the Nation. Second, it must be in response to a wrong committed by the offending other party. Third, the Warriors must have the right intent. To prevent an evil.

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’ll let you read this. It is the foundation of the interaction between nations, and the wise leader obeys the principles within when considering war.

An example of a Just War argument is the buildup of the second Gulf War. The Americans were out there daily making the case for war. Many nations signed on. Granted, the truth was that there were no WMD’s. However, just as true is that the Americans honestly believed there were. I won’t get bogged down in that argument again. At this point it is for the Historians to debate and rewrite the history.

However, the Americans made no secret of their demands, and their reasons for the war. They told the world daily that they would go to war, and they would do so for these reasons.

Russia lied. Ukraine had done nothing to them but turn away from allegiance to the East, and picking the economic freedoms of the west. They were decoupling their economy from Russia in favor of the greater benefits of going with the Euro. This was intolerable, but nothing evil or wrong. No harm would come to Russia, they would merely lose influence.

The idiotic argument that Russia faced an intolerable threat by an Ukraine aligned to the West, with or without NATO, is beyond stupid. What Russia faced was loss of Control.

Your Thug analogy above. You think that the family should surrender something to keep the Thugs satisfied. That never satisfies the Thugs. It never has. If you agree to pay the Mafia a little to keep your business safe, they will soon demand even more. Like the school boy paying the bullies his lunch money, they won’t be satisfied with a little. They have a willing target who will bow to their demands.

Hitler did not believe that France and Britain would really go to war over Poland. They had warned war would come so many times before. And Hitler saw both England and France as weak because they had paid off the bully. Like every thug in history, Hitler was emboldened to demand more. More concessions, more territory, more freedom to become stronger.

Look at History. Look at Russian History. They invaded Chechnya. They attacked Georgia. They’re stealing Georgian territory every night. They always want more. And that is just since the fall of the Soviets. So giving them part of Ukraine and hoping they are satisfied is not just wishful thinking, it is delusional beyond my ability to describe.

I’ve said it over and over again. I do think Russia will eventually be victorious. However, the best plan for peace in the future is to bleed Russia dry. To have this victory become so expensive that Russia can’t recover. To cost them so much in manpower and material that Russia can’t threaten their neighbors for a generation.

Russia’s actions are unjust. Agreeing to negotiate an acceptable deal to placate Russia would be a violation of the very principles that have guided this nation for centuries. The principles of a Just War among them. It would be wrong, morally, ethically, strategically. It would leave Russia able to threaten their neighbors and demand more concessions in a few short years. It would result in more war.

But there is a single way that a negotiated settlement would work. Conditions that satisfied Ukraine and Europe as well as those in America. But believe me. You don’t want it.

The one way would be to agree upon a line, and allow Ukraine to join NATO. Then if Russia crossed that line it would be automatic war. Russia would never agree. They know that they won’t stop. They’ll rebuild for a few years and launch another attack. World War III would be a certainty within what? Five years? Three years?

 

[Seymour Flops]

The principles of a Just War go back in time to Saint Augustine. It has been added to and refined since that time by other great thinkers. But it hasn’t really changed much since first proposed by the famous man.

There are certain conditions that must be met for a Just War. First, the war must be at the order of the Sovereign, or as adjusted to modern Governments, the leader of the Nation. Second, it must be in response to a wrong committed by the offending other party. Third, the Warriors must have the right intent. To prevent an evil.

Just war theory - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I’ll let you read this. It is the foundation of the interaction between nations, and the wise leader obeys the principles within when considering war.

An example of a Just War argument is the buildup of the second Gulf War. The Americans were out there daily making the case for war. Many nations signed on. Granted, the truth was that there were no WMD’s. However, just as true is that the Americans honestly believed there were. I won’t get bogged down in that argument again. At this point it is for the Historians to debate and rewrite the history.

However, the Americans made no secret of their demands, and their reasons for the war. They told the world daily that they would go to war, and they would do so for these reasons.

Russia lied. Ukraine had done nothing to them but turn away from allegiance to the East, and picking the economic freedoms of the west. They were decoupling their economy from Russia in favor of the greater benefits of going with the Euro. This was intolerable, but nothing evil or wrong. No harm would come to Russia, they would merely lose influence.

The idiotic argument that Russia faced an intolerable threat by an Ukraine aligned to the West, with or without NATO, is beyond stupid. What Russia faced was loss of Control.

Your Thug analogy above. You think that the family should surrender something to keep the Thugs satisfied. That never satisfies the Thugs. It never has. If you agree to pay the Mafia a little to keep your business safe, they will soon demand even more. Like the school boy paying the bullies his lunch money, they won’t be satisfied with a little. They have a willing target who will bow to their demands.

Hitler did not believe that France and Britain would really go to war over Poland. They had warned war would come so many times before. And Hitler saw both England and France as weak because they had paid off the bully. Like every thug in history, Hitler was emboldened to demand more. More concessions, more territory, more freedom to become stronger.

Look at History. Look at Russian History. They invaded Chechnya. They attacked Georgia. They’re stealing Georgian territory every night. They always want more. And that is just since the fall of the Soviets. So giving them part of Ukraine and hoping they are satisfied is not just wishful thinking, it is delusional beyond my ability to describe.

I’ve said it over and over again. I do think Russia will eventually be victorious. However, the best plan for peace in the future is to bleed Russia dry. To have this victory become so expensive that Russia can’t recover. To cost them so much in manpower and material that Russia can’t threaten their neighbors for a generation.

Russia’s actions are unjust. Agreeing to negotiate an acceptable deal to placate Russia would be a violation of the very principles that have guided this nation for centuries. The principles of a Just War among them. It would be wrong, morally, ethically, strategically. It would leave Russia able to threaten their neighbors and demand more concessions in a few short years. It would result in more war.

I hear all that you are saying. But the "just war" doctrine is not a suicide pact. A war has to be winnable to be ethical. You'd sacrifice the lives of your adult and children family members so you can say (from your own grave, presumably) "Well, we showed them that the Mann family can't be pushed around!" But suppose the battle were more even? Being the Hatfields and McCoys forever is no way to live.

But there is a single way that a negotiated settlement would work. Conditions that satisfied Ukraine and Europe as well as those in America. But believe me. You don’t want it.

The one way would be to agree upon a line, and allow Ukraine to join NATO. Then if Russia crossed that line it would be automatic war. Russia would never agree. They know that they won’t stop. They’ll rebuild for a few years and launch another attack. World War III would be a certainty within what? Five years? Three years?

I think such a line drawing coupled with NATO joining is very likely what will happen, if Trump is elected. If Biden is in power, the arms industry and their lobbyists will push for another endless semi-war as we had in Afghanistan and Iraq. Likely that will involve U.S. troops whether Ukraine is in NATO or not.

Will it work to draw a line and let Ukraine join NATO? Probably for at least five years, as you suggested. Plenty could happen in five years, such as Putin dead and a more reasonable leader taking over. I don't believe that the Russians are genetically unable to be peaceful. No more than other European nations, anyway.

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Trump's election will guarantee WWIII.

His attack on our allies will greatly encourage Russia to move west.

 

[Deadstick]

Trump's election will guarantee WWIII.

His attack on our allies will greatly encourage Russia to move west.

Why would Russia move West as you put it? and just how would they do it pray tell?

 

[John Edgar Slow Horses]

Why would Russia move West as you put it? and just how would they do it pray tell?

If you understand that Trump will weaken the western alliances, then of course Putin will resume empire making.

 

[zaangalewa]

By percentage, the USA is spending no where near what others in NATO are spending.

The correct sentence is: The USA is spending for the own army much more in percentage than this what other NATO members are spending in percentage for the own army. Only Germany alone pays for example the same what the USA is paying for the organisation of the NATO itselve. Per German this is 400% of this what an US-American is paying for the organisation NATO.

And if you should not know: The USA has in the whole world military bases and not only in Europe. Sure Europe is also able to make military bases in the USA if you have the feeling you need it to be protected from us. Why not?

Only Germany and France together have by the way a higher military household than Russia.

 

[zaangalewa]

If you understand that Trump will weaken the western alliances, then of course Putin will resume empire making.

Trump tried to eliminate the NATO. Trump damaged irreversible the political relations between Germany and the USA. No one is really able to trust in the USA any longer - except he is an idiot. Tomorrow you will perhaps only be a totally normal tyranny.

... Hmmm ... if I think about all this problems now. Perhaps your president Joe Biden is doing a much better job than very most of your people are able to imagine.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Trump tried to eliminate the NATO. Trump damaged irreversible the political relations between Germany and the USA. No one is really able to trust in the USA any longer - except he is an idiot. Tomorrow you will perhaps be only a totally normal tyranny.

Suppose all that is true. So if we elect Trump again, Germany and the other nations will no longer ____________________________ ?

... Hmmm ... if I think about all this problems now. Perhaps your president Joe Biden is doing a much better job than very most of your people are able to imagine.

It would take a lot of imagination to think Biden is doing a better job than any president prior. Even Carter.

 

[SavannahMann]

Suppose all that is true. So if we elect Trump again, Germany and the other nations will no longer ____________________________ ?

It would take a lot of imagination to think Biden is doing a better job than any president prior. Even Carter.

Well it is true. Trump did damage NATO.

Second. To be better than Trump Biden needs to be alive. In a Coma would suffice.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

So you won’t admit Russia lied before the invasion. An established fact. How about the lies to justify the invasion since?

Russia lied about Ukrainian Nazis murdering Russians in Donbass? Um, NO!

 

[JohnDB]

Russia lied about Ukrainian Nazis murdering Russians in Donbass? Um, NO!

Ummmm.....YES. in fact it was the lead Z patriot who did so AND claimed responsibility for doing so.

And his current incarceration is leading to the military no longer supporting Putin. The blogs are going crazy over this. Try looking for "Spiders eating spiders" on Telegram....

 

[zaangalewa]

Suppose all that is true. So if we elect Trump again, Germany and the other nations will no longer ____________________________ ?

No idea what you try to ask here. Many people today seem to think "anti to do" is the most important. I'm normally on the side of the meditative and creative powers: In best case God will lead us and we will see what will be the best what we are able to do. But I don't see in the moment any way how a German like I should be able to survive a tyranny USA - specially also because I never made any secret out of my opinion that the high traitor of the values of the western world Donald Trump is either criminally stupid or a totally criminal idiot.

It would take a lot of imagination to think Biden is doing a better job than any president prior. Even Carter.

It will always need some years or even decades to find out whether a captain of a hundreds of millions state-ship made really good or bad decisions. Before G.W. Bush (="worst president ever. What a luck that no none will be able to be more worse") and Donald Trump (="damn: a president of the USA is able to be much more worse than G.W. Bush who was an angel compared with this idiot") we remembered practically only John F. Kennedy as a good president of the USA. I remember Clinton had been a good president of the USA and how astonished I was once why the US-Americans made such a big story out of his affair with Monika Lewinsky. Both had been adults. Their problem. Now I am astonished (and worried) how it was possible that a man like Donald Trump got more than one vote. I guess the very wide spread mentality "right or wrong my country" causes such problems. The holy men of other nations seem to be be often more bad than the own most worst criminals. I'm no friend of nationalism - although I am a patriot on my own. But a real patriot accepts also the love of others for their own countries - and who loves also suffers when the loved is in danger or becomes really hurted and wounded. Sometimes I say: "A big roof over the USA and ready is the greatest psychiatric hospital of the world". But such a roof over Russia could not exist at all - what's not an advantage of Russia. I hope even when you will become a tyranny you will be a kind of funny tyranny. On the other side. Who was more funny than Hitler and his absurdities? And how to survive a nuclear war? We will see - or more hopefully: We will not see. Today is the day to change this so it never will happen. And with the help of god his children will hopefully be able to do so. And if not today - then tomorrow.

 

[laferia52]

Biden had to read from note cards when meeting with foreign leaders because he had no fucking idea what’s going on. Unless Xi steps up, there’s no one else the 2 sides will take seriously

biden needs the easter bunny by his side so he won't get lost

 

[zaangalewa]

... But the "just war" doctrine is not a suicide pact. A war has to be winnable to be ethical. ....

That's one of most important rules of a just[ifyable] war. And Russia is not able to win this war she started. So it is not a just war what Russia is doing. Specially when the hightest risk of such a war - which is made from a nuclear power in the beginning of the third millenium - is the extermination of all mankind. Result: The "system Putin" has to die. The best is the Russians will kill this corrupt system on their own - with or without Putin. The world is not able to live with such a threat for everyone else. Russia has to become a reasonable nation and should stop it to be a punching ball of the own warhungry psychopaths. What Putin is doing is not only a war against Europe and the complete Occident - it is also a war against the roots of Russia and the complete Orient. Russia - you are lost! Independent what war Putin will win or lose. A wrong way into a nowhere without roots and future is the wrong way! Change this, Russia! Become reasonable! Leave the Ukraine with all of your soldiers! Start a peace process! Fight for peace - not for war.



Under the green willow,
Lied the wounded Cossack,
Eeeee, oj, yes, under the green,
Lied the wounded Cossack.

There came the bird raven,
He began to crow above the tree,
Aaaj, yes, above him circled the black raven,
He smelled the delicious piece down there.

You shall not crow, black raven,
Over my head,
Eee, oj yes, the black raven,
I'm still alive Cossack.

Fly, black raven, there,
To my father, to my mother's home,
Eee, hand over the bloody cloth
To my wife, young wife

Tell her, Black Raven,
That I have married another,
Eeee, that I found another bride (=death),
In the open field beyond the river

There was a silent wedding,
Under the willow tree,
Eeee, oj yes, silent wedding,
Under the willow tree

There were matchmakers - the sharp saber,
The best man was the steely bayonet
Eee, oj ja, the sharp saber,
The best man was the steely bayonet

Quickly the bullet married us,
And the mother-earth betrothed us,
Eee, oj ja, quick bullet,
Mother-earth has betrothed us