The Truth about Mormons

[JBeukema]

“It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet MEN CAN COMMIT SINS WHICH IT CAN NEVER REMIT. As it was in ancient days, so it is in our day; and though the principles are taught publicly from this stand, still the people do not understand them; yet the law is precisely the same. There are sins that can be ATONED for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, of a calf, or of turtle doves, cannot remit, but THEY MUST BE ATONED FOR BY THE BLOOD OF THE MAN.(Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses,Vol. 4, pages 53-54; also published in the Deseret News, 1856, page 235)

 

[JBeukema]

“shall i tell you the law of god in regard to the african race? if the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of cain, the penalty, under the law of god is death on the spot. this will always be so.” (journal of discourses, v. 10, p. 110)

 

[JBeukema]

“and if any man mingle his seed with the seed of cane [sic] the ownly [sic] way he could get rid of it or have salvation would be to come forward and have his head cut off & spill his blood upon the ground it would also take the life of his children...” (wilford woodruff's journal, recording a speech by brigham young, january 16, 1852, typed copy; original located in lds church archives).

 

[JBeukema]

“i say, rather than that apostates should flourish here, i will unsheath my bowie knife, and conquer or die. (great commotion in the congregation, and a simultaneous burst of feeling, assenting to the declaration.) now, you nasty apostates, clear out, or judgment will be put to the line, and righteousness to the plummet. (voices, generally, 'go it, go it.') if you say it is right, raise your hands. (all hands up.) let us call upon the lord to assist us in this, and every good work.” (journal of discourses, vol. 1, page 83)

 

[JBeukema]

“this is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it. any of you who understand the principles of eternity, if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. that is the way to love mankind.” (sermon by brigham young, delivered in the mormon tabernacle, feb. 8, 1857, printed in the deseret news, feb. 18, 1857; also reprinted in the journal of discourses, vol. 4, pp. 219-220)




wait.... you didn't actually want the answer, did you? You wanted to pretend none of it was true?




This, people, if the truth about mormons

 

[JBeukema]

the first mention we have of slavery is found in the holy bible,... and so far from that prediction being averse to the mind of god, it remains as a lasting monument of the decree of jehovah, to the shame and confusion of all who have cried out against the south, in consequence of their holding the sons of ham in servitude.... i can say, the curse is not yet taken off from the sons of canaan, neither will be until it is affected by as great a power as caused it to come; and the people who interfere the least with the purposes of god in this matter, will come under the least condemnation before him; and those who are determined to pursue a course, which shows an opposition, and a feverish restlessness against the decrees of the lord, will learn, when perhaps it is too late for their own good, that god can do his own work, without the aid of those who are not dictated by his counsel.”
(history of the church, by joseph smith, vol. 2, pages 436-438)

 

[JBeukema]

John Taylor, who became the third President of the Mormon Church, had this to say concerning the abolitionist Horace Greeley after Mr. Greeley visited Utah:

“... I WOULD NOT TALK TO HIM: I FELT MYSELF SUPERIOR TO SUCH A MEAN CONTEMPTIBLE CUR. I knew he was not after truth, but falsehood. “This Greeley is one of their popular characters in the East, and one that supports the stealing of ******* and the underground railroad....he is one of the prominent newspaper editors in the Eastern country, and he is a POOR, MISERABLE CURSE.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 5, page 119)

​

 

[JakeStarkey]

Why don't you want to talk about Mountain Meadows?

The Meadows is a very small piece of history when compared to the Inquisition, or the precursors of evangelicals and pentacostals, etc, the Puritans hanging Quaker women for their public testimonies.

I like your quotes from the mid-19th Century. Give us something after 1900, if you can, because what you are giving us comports more with the FLDS than the LDS church.

If you think any religious sect (or atheist believing faith group, for that matter) is without taint . . . no, you would not be that foolish to think that, so your game here is personal. Share it with us, please.

 

[Christopher]

When I hear Mormon, I think of the slaughter of innocent children so they might go to heaven.

But that's probably just because of the historical facts regarding the religion.

And who was slaughtering innocent children to get to heaven?

is there something about mormonism that just requires people to make stuff up about us?

Don't know the history of your own church? When they slaughtered settlers and travelers passing through, the justification for the slaughter of the children was that the children could go to heaven if they were slain, whereas letting them live would mean they'd become stained with sin and go to hell.

Well, you obviously don’t know the whole history. Maybe you don’t want to know it. Either way, I’ll provide you the context, which you always seem to have so many problems including when discussing history. From my discussions with you before, you continually ignored historical context so that you could maintain your position. I think that shows your intent here is not for honest discussion, (you do seem to have something in common with Andrew Brietbart who also takes things out of context), however, I’m willing to give you another chance.

I actually visited the Mountain Meadows massacre site just a few weeks ago and it is something I will discuss honestly and openly with anyone. While no church has been built there (as you sarcastically implied), there was a monument constructed and dedicated by the LDS church some years ago in memory of those who were killed in this tragic event.
All the evidence available shows that the massacre was perpetrated by an isolated group of Mormons, with the main leader by the name of John D. Lee.

It was Lee’s paranoia fostered by previous church persecution, and combined with the increased tensions between the LDS and US troops in Utah which helped create the situation. Lee’s paranoia caused him to go so far as to convince a group of Paiutes to attack the emigrants who had supposedly threatened LDS people in southern Utah. Whether or not the threats were real, did not seem to matter to Lee; he seemed to take them as valid.

Lee, before attacking, went to local church leaders to try and get support from the local church leaders. A church council was called together. The council’s decision was that Lee and others were not to attack the emigrants. He didn’t listen and he let his paranoia control him. The president of the church even sent a letter from Salt Lake City saying to leave the emigrants alone, although the letter came too late (it is 250 miles from Salt Lake City).

Lee was in no way justified by his actions and was put on trial and executed for his crimes. Others were also put on trial, and convicted, although some ran from the law the rest of their lives. Regardless of what you are trying to prove here, Lee’s actions and the others’ involved in this tragedy go against official church teachings.

Here is what Sharon Chambers, the great-granddaughter of one of the survivors said:

The people who did this had lost their way. I don’t know what was in their minds or in their hearts. I feel sorrow that this happened to my ancestors. I also feel sorrow that people have blamed the acts of some on an entire group, or on an entire religion.

Are you blaming the acts of some on an entire group? Are you really trying to find out the truth about Mormons? Your answers to these questions will show your real intentions here. That is, if you actually answer the questions.

 

[JBeukema]

All the evidence available shows that the massacre was perpetrated by an isolated group of Mormons, with the main leader by the name of John D. Lee.

Except for Young's involvement, condonement, and help covering it up.

But they tried to destroy all those documents...

 

[RetiredGySgt]

You are a bigot. A hater.

You foll;ow God or Satan, according to the teachings of the Prophets and the Messiah.

If they believe that Smith was given the word of God, then to turn their backs on that Word is to turn their backs on God, thus choosing the god of this world.

Do not try to debate this with anyone that is actually in the church, you look like a fool. Plural marriages were ordered by Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Church. In 1890 the then Prophet ordered them no more. Prophets act on God's word.

So God can't make up his mind? If the LORD is perfect and his words are perfect, why would he recant them?

Or did God suddenly decide a harem in which 1/3 of the girls were children was suddenly a bad thing?

One of God's orders is to obey the laws of the Country you are in.

So the Law of Man is more important than the Law of God? That doesn't sound like something God would say, but like something the Deciever would say.

I suggest you read the BIBLE as the order is in that document.

 

[JBeukema]

So the bible says that Man's law is more important than God's?

Yet another proof that the people who wrote it couldn't keep their story straight. Very poorly written piece of fiction, it is.

 

[JakeStarkey]

JB, we have been through this before.

You can't prove that God does not exist, thus your nattering is meaningless on this issue.

Go dig in your sand pile.

 

[Christopher]

All the evidence available shows that the massacre was perpetrated by an isolated group of Mormons, with the main leader by the name of John D. Lee.

Except for Young's involvement, condonement, and help covering it up.

But they tried to destroy all those documents...

Where is your credible evidence to support these statements?

By the way, you did not answer my two questions. What is your real intent here?

 

[Truthspeaker]

The Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints are, regardless of Avatar alleges, of course Mormon. The LDS have tried to corral the title "Mormon" and the courts shot that down. A "Mormon" is any person who follows Joseph Smith as a prophet of the restoration and believes that the Book of Mormon as true, revealed scripture. To suggest one denomination in Mormonism are the only "Mormons" makes reason stare and is simply not supported by the professional occupations in the U.S.

If we're gonna get THAT technical then they can all have the nickname Mormons. It's just a nickname anyway. We're members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. The original name of the church as revealed to Joseph Smith the Prophet.

And since we all ("Mormons") believe that the naming of the church must be revealed then that is the only revelation that was ever given to any of the prophets. No other name. We have it.

btw, Jake, hows that sweep taste right now for dem bums?

 

[Avatar4321]

I love how you need to delibrately take quotes out of context to make your points.

How about instead of butchering the quotes, you just link to the sermons so we can read them ourselves?

 

[Truthspeaker]

The dictionary definitions vary on this, and you know that, Avatar. Don't be duplicitous, please.

A member of the LDS church (Hq'd in SLC) is only one type of Mormon, for there have been hundreds of denominations within Mormonism since 1831. The Temple Lot Case (1893) awarded the legal church status of Joseph Smith's organization to the Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints (now the Community of Christ), not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. If any church has a legal right to the word it would be the Community of Christ.

Let's stay with the facts, Avatar.

Too bad it wasn't Joseph's organization. It was the church of Jesus Christ not the church of Joseph Smith. Joseph Said so. not that it matters, but I don't see how a court of man could have any authority in spiritual matters anyway.

 

[Truthspeaker]

So God can't make up his mind?

Just because God gives different commandments in different time periods doesn't mean that he can't make up his mind. It just means, of course, that he is ahead of the curve as always.

Or did God suddenly decide a harem in which 1/3 of the girls were children was suddenly a bad thing?

God has authorized polygamy at sundry times during the course of human existence. Many of the women involved were under the age of 18. Somewhere in the United States in the late 20th century, the law of the land delineated 17 and under to be a "minor". Children is a very vague term as well. The Virgin Mary was definitely under age 17. Does that make Joseph a pedophile once he took his wife later on after Jesus birth? I'm sure he didn't wait till she was 18. Otherwise he would have been sainted by the Catholics a long time ago The Virgin Joseph.

So the Law of Man is more important than the Law of God?

When the US made it illegal to marry more than one wife, God revealed the time for plural marriages to cease. The purpose of plural marriage had been fulfilled and the population had flourished and was no longer necessary for the survival of our people. So God would not have his people in a catch 22 with the law.

but to answer your question: No, the laws of men are not more important than the Law of God. They are not always in agreance with each other all the time either and sometimes that results in the goverments massacring his people. He would not have that at this time.

 

[Truthspeaker]

When I hear Mormon, I think of the slaughter of innocent children so they might go to heaven.

that's too bad because what you really should be thinking of when you hear of the MMM is that there are evil and mislead people in all religions. Rather than ignorantly blaming the individual's church they claim to be from.

Don't know the history of your own church?

I'm a church historian.

When they slaughtered settlers and travelers passing through, the justification for the slaughter of the children was that the children could go to heaven if they were slain, whereas letting them live would mean they'd become stained with sin and go to hell.

That may have been the justification. But it was a renegade act by a mislead group of men from our church who did not understand the doctrine as plainly manifest. That is not nor ever has been our doctrine.

But not to be off topic but you probably had a major problem with the slaughter of all the "innocent" Hittites, Ammonites and Phillistines that God commanded the children of Israel to slaughter leaving none alive.

 

[Truthspeaker]

Why don't you want to talk about Mountain Meadows?

On the contrary, what would you like to discuss about it?