The two ends of the political spectrum are killing us

[JoeB131]

And the core of that debate is how much we want government doing. Given that government is not a choice, given that it's applied by force on the unwilling, sane people see good reason to limit it.

That's your core debate... bought and paid for by the Koch Brothers.

Government most certainly is a choice, and the politicians give us what we want, unfortunately.

Instead of constantly whining "government bad", tell us in ACTUAL NUMBERS what you would want to cut and why.

Because you are going to find that very little of what you want to cut, anyone else does.

 

[JoeB131]

Lol. Oh Joe WTF!

Ears appeared unabashed left, but was your typical run-of-mill establishment elitist warmonger. You like many got duped.

He and W are blood brothers from different mothers. Both men ruled exactly the same.

As potus, he did exactly nothing that could be considered left wing or progressive.

You mean other than expanding health care to 40 million people. That's probably the largest expansion of government benefits since LBJ.

The reality is, everyone is a fucking hippy until THEY Get control of the military. Then they get gobsmacked into realizing, "OH, yeah, it's a dangerous world and we need to intervene".

On military affairs, Obama was pretty straightforward. Iraq was a war of choice that we needed to get out of, Afghanistan is a war of necessity that we had to win. That's what he ran on and by and large, that's what he did. (And I disagreed with him on Afghanistan, we needed to do what Biden did, and get the hell out.)

 

[dblack]

Government most certainly is a choice, and the politicians give us what we want, unfortunately.

Tell that to the judge, when you're being sentenced.

Government is force. Period. Sometimes it's justified. Most of the time, it's not. Most of our problems can be solved without resorting to violence.

 

[gipper]

You mean other than expanding health care to 40 million people. That's probably the largest expansion of government benefits since LBJ.

The reality is, everyone is a fucking hippy until THEY Get control of the military. Then they get gobsmacked into realizing, "OH, yeah, it's a dangerous world and we need to intervene".

On military affairs, Obama was pretty straightforward. Iraq was a war of choice that we needed to get out of, Afghanistan is a war of necessity that we had to win. That's what he ran on and by and large, that's what he did. (And I disagreed with him on Afghanistan, we needed to do what Biden did, and get the hell out.)

Oh brother! O took Romney’s right wing HC plan in MA and nationalized it. Thus enriching big insurance, one of his big donor classes. Yeah it helped a few Americans but if he were a real progressive, he would have passed universal HC.

He dropped more bombs than W. Threw millions of families out of their homes whiling bailing the criminal banks. He took W’s two wars and added five more.

He was a fucking disaster, but cultists like you (exactly like MAGA Trumpers) can’t see the truth.

 

[Mac1958]

That's the most honest thing you've said.

And it's because you're not looking at this in a useful way.

You're right insofar as the way things have been done so far brought us Trumpism.

But you're wrong about what Trumpism actually IS. That's why you don't understand.

50% of America is fed up. It's a populism thing, not a Trump thing. They cheer the J6 protesters while insisting Trump had nothing to do with it. And if you ask them if they want Trump to be president for life, they say not only no, but hell no.

It is vital that you read the landscape accurately if you wish to leverage it.

This bullshit about cults and so on, simply won't fly. It's stupid. Dumb. A little on the stupid and dumb side of retarded.

Yes, I realize half the country is fed up. I do pay attention. I do understand. I even agree with much of it, as I made clear in the OP.

As I told a lefty in post 565, the goal is not the problem. The problem is the method used in addressing the goal. The Left's methods bit them square in the ass, and it's entirely possible the Right's methods will bite THEM square in the ass next. Back and forth, back and forth, shit doesn't get fixed because of ego.

I'd rather see the problems addressed intelligently, where we ALL have skin in the game, not just one tribe shoving it down our throats. THAT has ALWAYS been my point. ALWAYS.

 

[gipper]

Yes, I realize half the country is fed up. I do pay attention. I do understand. I even agree with much of it, as I made clear in the OP.

As I told a lefty in post 565, the goal is not the problem. The problem is the method used in addressing the goal. The Left's methods bit them in the ass, and it's entirely possible the Right's methods will bite THEM in the ass next. Back and forth, back and forth, shit doesn't get fixed because of ego.

I'd rather see the problems address intelligently. THAT has ALWAYS been my point.

Why have Americans refused to realize the truth? Their nation is a fucked up disaster.

The system is broken and unrepairable. This is how fools like Don and Joe get elected. The majority of Americans know the oligarchy/establishment is screwing them and is desperately looking for a politician to save them. Clearly this is impossible.

 

[sparky]

I'd rather see the problems addressed intelligently, where we ALL have skin in the game, not just one tribe shoving it down our throats. THAT has ALWAYS been my point. ALWAYS.

Then you may dispense with any partisan politics Mac

~S~

 

[JoeB131]

Tell that to the judge, when you're being sentenced.

Uh, if I'm being sentenced, it was because I broke a law that the vast majority of my fellow citizens thought was a good idea.

Government is force. Period. Sometimes it's justified. Most of the time, it's not. Most of our problems can be solved without resorting to violence.

And most of them are..

You know, funny thing, the last time I had an encounter with government at all was when I took my girlfriend to get her driver's license renewed. The last time before that was when I renewed a business license, that I only even got because my new Condo Association won't let me run a business out of my home without one. (My previous condo association didn't care) and because Google wouldn't list me without one. So it was not "Government" that was my problem there, it was two private entities.

Oh brother! O took Romney’s right wing HC plan in MA and nationalized it. Thus enriching big insurance, one of his big donor classes. Yeah it helped a few Americans but if he were a real progressive, he would have passed universal HC.

Which no one wants, because that's not an American thing. I'm personally all for single payer. Get enough Americans on board, we'll get that. ACA got us a lot closer.

He dropped more bombs than W. Threw millions of families out of their homes whiling bailing the criminal banks. He took W’s two wars and added five more.

Okay, let's look at these statements.
More bombs than W? Do you have a source for that?
Five more wars? First, I can only count three (Syria, Libya and Yemen) and our involvement in those is peripheral, at best. Libya was having a civil war regardless.

Not sure how Obama is responsible for private banks foreclosing on bad mortgages, exactly. The damage was done under Bush.

He was a fucking disaster, but cultists like you (exactly like MAGA Trumpers) can’t see the truth.

Actually, I didn't vote for him in 2008, and the only reason I considered him in 2012 is because the GOP let itself get hijacked by the Mormon Cult, and then the MAGA cult.

Objectively, though... Obama did okay. Unemployment was at 10%, he got it down to 4.7%. Romney said that he would consider it success if he got it down to 6% by 2016.
He killed Bin Laden, something Bush failed to do.
He saved the Auto industry
ACA gave people access to health care who didn't have it before.
he even cut the deficit in half before Trump ran it up again.

But a whole bunch of people lost their minds because "OH MY GOD, THERE'S A NEGRO IN THE WHITE HOUSE!"

 

[sparky]

Not sure how Obama is responsible for private banks foreclosing on bad mortgages, exactly. The damage was done under Bush.

have you heard Janet Yellen lately?

~S~

 

[Mac1958]

Then you may dispense with any partisan politics Mac

~S~

I do. On the issues.

 

[sparky]

I do. On the issues.

That will gain you the clarity our failed government wishes you not possess Mac

~S~

 

[gipper]

Uh, if I'm being sentenced, it was because I broke a law that the vast majority of my fellow citizens thought was a good idea.


And most of them are..

You know, funny thing, the last time I had an encounter with government at all was when I took my girlfriend to get her driver's license renewed. The last time before that was when I renewed a business license, that I only even got because my new Condo Association won't let me run a business out of my home without one. (My previous condo association didn't care) and because Google wouldn't list me without one. So it was not "Government" that was my problem there, it was two private entities.



Which no one wants, because that's not an American thing. I'm personally all for single payer. Get enough Americans on board, we'll get that. ACA got us a lot closer.



Okay, let's look at these statements.
More bombs than W? Do you have a source for that?
Five more wars? First, I can only count three (Syria, Libya and Yemen) and our involvement in those is peripheral, at best. Libya was having a civil war regardless.

Not sure how Obama is responsible for private banks foreclosing on bad mortgages, exactly. The damage was done under Bush.



Actually, I didn't vote for him in 2008, and the only reason I considered him in 2012 is because the GOP let itself get hijacked by the Mormon Cult, and then the MAGA cult.

Objectively, though... Obama did okay. Unemployment was at 10%, he got it down to 4.7%. Romney said that he would consider it success if he got it down to 6% by 2016.
He killed Bin Laden, something Bush failed to do.
He saved the Auto industry
ACA gave people access to health care who didn't have it before.
he even cut the deficit in half before Trump ran it up again.

But a whole bunch of people lost their minds because "OH MY GOD, THERE'S A NEGRO IN THE WHITE HOUSE!"

He bailed out the banks but according to Joe, he can’t be held responsible for kicking millions of families out of their homes.

LOL! Think.

 

[gipper]

Yes, I realize half the country is fed up. I do pay attention. I do understand. I even agree with much of it, as I made clear in the OP.

As I told a lefty in post 565, the goal is not the problem. The problem is the method used in addressing the goal. The Left's methods bit them square in the ass, and it's entirely possible the Right's methods will bite THEM square in the ass next. Back and forth, back and forth, shit doesn't get fixed because of ego.

I'd rather see the problems addressed intelligently, where we ALL have skin in the game, not just one tribe shoving it down our throats. THAT has ALWAYS been my point. ALWAYS.

Dream on.

 

[j-mac]

Thank you and I agree with most of that but not all.

That's ok, after all it'd be pretty boring around here if we agreed on everything....lol

I believe our ridiculous military spending and numerous foreign interventions will be our demise, just as has happened to all prior militaristic empires.

There was an article in the Jewish Policy Center, from the President of the Lexington Institute, Dr. Daniel Goure, which I'd like to quote the final paragraph, because I think he says it better than I can....

"Even if America runs, as the far left and right propose, it is too late to hide. Those who choose to be enemies can come after the United States. This is the lesson of 9-11. It also is the message that North Korea sent with its latest tests of a nuclear weapon and long-range ballistic missile. China, one of America’s largest trading partners and the holder of a trillion dollars in U.S. debt, is conducting a massive and continuous cyber assault on the nation’s private companies, infrastructure, and military facilities. To what mountaintop can America withdraw, how small must it become, and how meekly will it have to behave in order to ensure its security?

The irony is that the cost of the U.S. military had for decades represented a small and declining percentage of both overall GDP and total federal spending. Today, defense spending is about 4 percent of GDP and less than 20 percent of federal spending. For this relatively small sum the U.S. had to deter major wars—including nuclear attacks on the homeland—contain innumerable local conflicts, create an environment in which a community of democratic nations emerged, grown, and flourished, and secured literally trillions of dollars of overseas investments, trade flows, and natural resources. It is a tragedy of epic proportions that all this should be put at risk."

How U.S. Military Power Holds the World Together – Jewish Policy Center

Nations, like nature, abhor a vacuum. It must be filled. How it is filled, by whom and with what are the challenging questions. Unlike nature, which seeks to fill a vacuum with whatever is handy and can be stuffed or sucked into the space available, nations rely on power, relationships and...

www.jewishpolicycenter.org

The whole article is very good...

 

[skews13]

Political overcompensation is the new Great American Pastime.

A few years ago, some of us were warning the Left: You're going too far with Political Correctness and Identity Politics. You're going too far screaming RACIST at every last fucking thing that moves. You're going too far lowering standards and expectations for people based solely on their skin color. You're going too far in normalizing sexual disorders such as gender dysphoria. You're going too far in putting your agenda in schools. You're going too far in disallowing conservative voices on college campuses. And most of all, you're going too far in attacking, intimidating and penalizing people in everyday life for saying things you don't like.

There's going to be pushback, we said. You're overcompensating, we said. This stuff is not right, we said. I only said that a few thousand times here, to be met with attacks from the Left. (By the way, a zillion examples of that available upon request via the search function)

So now we see the pushback, with this Neanderthal, middle school bully-approach to the culture from the Right. This is the pushback we warned about -- although, admittedly, even worse than I imagined. And this sucker has legs, just like your weaponized PC and Identity Politics did. They're making laws and attacking and intimidating. Gee, what a coincidence. What Deja Vu we're seeing, huh? Go figure!

And most amazing of all, this pushback included the election of a petulant child, an obvious con man, an orange buffoon, in 2016, and all the fucking unbelievable madness that has followed.

No doubt there will be pushback to this, too. Back and forth. Back and forth. More and more damage.

Ideological politics poisons everything it touches. Now it's putting this country at risk of falling apart. Great job, gang. You're BOTH so much like those you hate, and you just won't stop.

Young Republicans Are Begging Party Elders To Stop Saying 'Woke'

The next generation of conservatives support their party's culture wars. But they hate the way they describe them

www.rollingstone.com

There's pushback alright. Keep in mind where this all started.

If you think for one second there will be any compromise with this, you're not paying attention.

See the picture of the drug addict pedophile at the top? He once said this...

"You don't negotiate with Liberals. You defeat them"


I couldn't agree more. Except it isn't Liberals who are going to get defeated.

 

[Blaster]

There is no common ground so there will be constant fighting between both sides of the political spectrum.

 

[scruffy]

Yes, I realize half the country is fed up. I do pay attention. I do understand. I even agree with much of it, as I made clear in the OP.

As I told a lefty in post 565, the goal is not the problem. The problem is the method used in addressing the goal. The Left's methods bit them square in the ass, and it's entirely possible the Right's methods will bite THEM square in the ass next. Back and forth, back and forth, shit doesn't get fixed because of ego.

I'd rather see the problems addressed intelligently, where we ALL have skin in the game, not just one tribe shoving it down our throats. THAT has ALWAYS been my point. ALWAYS.

Okay. Let's back up a minute.

I dispute the thread title.

What we have here, is not two ends of a political spectrum.

What we have here, is two "parties". And "parties" are FINANCIAL institutions. (Some of the biggest and most powerful in the country).

These parties, are barely even political. They'll compromise on any damn thing. Politically, they're mostly a bunch of gutless spineless cowards.

However when it comes to money, they're very proactive. Very proactive indeed.

I look at it kinda this way: in the middle, there's the Constitution, and on each side of it are parties who have financial (and rarely ideological) reasons not to obey it. Most of the time, the reasons and agendas cancel each other out. Where we get into trouble, is when they become synergistic.

I'll give you a perfect example. Citizens United. Speech is money.

As long as that holds, there is ZERO chance of fixing the finances.

Speech is NOT money. Even a blindfolded retarded ten year old can tell you that. Speech is the stuff that comes out of your mouth, money is the stuff in your wallet. The Constitution says commerce can be REGULATED. Commerce is money. Any time money changes hands, that's commerce - and if it crosses state lines (which 90% of the dark money does) it can be REGULATED.

The original decision was in favor of one party, but did we hear the other party howling? No. Because they had and have a financial reason not to.

Politicians are horrible human beings, they're greedy power hungry scumbags. The last statesman I remember was Tom Lantos, who died 20 years ago.

Politicians, need to be under a populist Sword of Damocles AT ALL TIMES. Not just once every four years, and not just on Jan 6.

It's an essential part of our checks and balances.

 

[JoeB131]

He bailed out the banks but according to Joe, he can’t be held responsible for kicking millions of families out of their homes.

LOL! Think.

He wouldn't have HAD to bail out the banks if Bush hadn't let them give out shaky mortgages and then inflate their value and sell them as investments.

If he hadn't bailed out the banks, the Great Recession would have been ten times worse.

So let's look at foreclosures, shall we? Oh, wait, they peaked in 2010 and were cut by 2/3rds by the time Obama left.

Number of new mortgages a year.

MEANWHILE, the number of repeat homeowners increased on his watch.

Of course, I don't feel a LOT of sympathy for these people who were "Thrown out of their homes" because a lot of them NEVER should have gotten a mortgage from the git-go.


I compare my home buying experience in 2004 (where it was pretty easy to get a loan) to the one I did in 2021, where they pretty much asked for everything short of a colonoscopy to make sure I was a good risk.

 

[Mac1958]

There's pushback alright. Keep in mind where this all started.


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If you think for one second there will be any compromise with this, you're not paying attention.

See the picture of the drug addict pedophile at the top? He once said this...

"You don't negotiate with Liberals. You defeat them"


I couldn't agree more. Except it isn't Liberals who are going to get defeated.

As long as this is either/or, win/lose, all or nothing, the damage will continue.

If we don't start collaborating and innovating so that we all have skin in the game, this thing could fall apart. Self-inflicted wound.

 

[Mac1958]

Okay. Let's back up a minute.

I dispute the thread title.

What we have here, is not two ends of a political spectrum.

What we have here, is two "parties". And "parties" are FINANCIAL institutions. (Some of the biggest and most powerful in the country).

These parties, are barely even political. They'll compromise on any damn thing. Politically, they're mostly a bunch of gutless spineless cowards.

However when it comes to money, they're very proactive. Very proactive indeed.

I look at it kinda this way: in the middle, there's the Constitution, and on each side of it are parties who have financial (and rarely ideological) reasons not to obey it. Most of the time, the reasons and agendas cancel each other out. Where we get into trouble, is when they become synergistic.

I'll give you a perfect example. Citizens United. Speech is money.

As long as that holds, there is ZERO chance of fixing the finances.

Speech is NOT money. Even a blindfolded retarded ten year old can tell you that. Speech is the stuff that comes out of your mouth, money is the stuff in your wallet. The Constitution says commerce can be REGULATED. Commerce is money. Any time money changes hands, that's commerce - and if it crosses state lines (which 90% of the dark money does) it can be REGULATED.

The original decision was in favor of one party, but did we hear the other party howling? No. Because they had and have a financial reason not to.

Politicians are horrible human beings, they're greedy power hungry scumbags. The last statesman I remember was Tom Lantos, who died 20 years ago.

Politicians, need to be under a populist Sword of Damocles AT ALL TIMES. Not just once every four years, and not just on Jan 6.

It's an essential part of our checks and balances.

When I read that, two words pop into my head: "The system".

This is exactly why I'm a one-issue voter now. The problems you mention are all fair. BUT, our "system" not only allows for them, it incentivizes them, rewards them. If the rules allow them to be fucking liars and authoritarians, that's what they're going to be.

I agree: I don't care for politicians. The party is irrelevant. So let's change the rules they play under. Let's neuter them enough that they have to concentrate on improving things, not just beating the other side. As long as we don't enough to change the rules, we're just bending over for more of the same.