The Ultimate Tool for Redemption

[Newby]

Newby, Matthew 7:6.

Amen.

 

[Newby]

The point is obvious. If the afterlife for the Godless was simply a neutral situation absent of God, that would be a fair "reward" for being Godless in life.

If the reward isn't simply the absence of God, but also ETERNAL TORTURE, how is that fair?

If God is just -and- he loves each of us, how is -ETERNAL- torture a just punishment for -anything-?

You and your buddy Bruce, just don't get it, do you?? The very absence of God for the human soul is the cause of the eternal torture. You are separated from God for eternity, and that IS your torture. Read the Bible and educate yourself.

You haven't really argued against my point, though.

If separation from God equals out to eternal torture, then it is a function that God intentionally built into the soul.

Also, eternal torture is eternal torture. If God has the power to -not- torture us eternally, but he -does- consider it a just punishment for guessing his identity incorrectly, then which is the case? Is the Biblical God unjust or are our views on justice completely skewed?

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

I wouldn't say 'silly', but obviously not on par with how God defines it. Mercy and love are not always about comfort and security, any parent knows that.

Let's say there is a God for sure, you die and you're standing before Him and you have to account for why you discarded everything you were shown, all evidence, what is your defense going to be for why you shouldn't now be separated from Him when you willingly did so on your own terms until the proof was before your eyes. Are you going to say you lacked faith? Didn't care to really know or understand the Bible? Because it's all in there, and it's being rejected, not only rejected but impuned and maligned.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I never said that eternal torture wasn't 'part of the deal', I said that eternal torture is the result of being completely separated from God. You're the one that initially attempted to establish that there are two punishments, separation from God and eternal torture. You asked why one couldn't be enough, why torture had to be included as well as separation from God. I merely corrected you that there is only one punishment, separation from God whish IS eternal torture to the human soul, in other words you can't have separation from God without torture since they are one and the same thing. Your lack of understanding on this concept reveals that you've never been a Christian, nor will you ever be I would guess. Then you went on to babble about how I was at odds with other posters in the thread, like that was significant or something, etc... And of course the comments about how only liberal mainstream churches teach the concept I just outlined, which was also incorrect. So, in review, I agree with you on nothing, and your post above is evidence of your incoherent babble and how you can't seem to follow a conversation. Nothing new there I see.

You're still on my side, and you just HATE that!
Do you know how many people on here believe in the literal fiery hell?I was addressing THEM and you came charging in on your white horse, all the while not realizing you were defending ME! LOL!
I NEVER said that only liberal mainstream churches teach that separation from god is the true hell of the bible. I said it is their default position. This is another example of your poor reading comprehension, or your blatant dishonesty. I leave that to you.

You sure do have a short memory concerning your very own posts... apparently you believed it according to your post below. You didn't understand the concept of separation from God and hell being one and the same thing. So where exactly did you promote the concept that separation from God is what causes eternal torture? Oh, that's right, you never did.



Then you went on to say it was one interpretation and only mainstream liberal churches taught that while conservative churches held onto their belief of lake of fire... which also isn't true. Do you think your posts just disppear when a new page is started?

You and your buddy Bruce, just don't get it, do you?? The very absence of God for the human soul is the cause of the eternal torture. You are separated from God for eternity, and that IS your torture. Read the Bible and educate yourself.

That is certainly one interpretation.
The irony is that the more liberal mainstream denominations have interpreted scripture exactly that way, while the fundamentalists are still preaching the lake of fire.I think they are both nonsense, personally.

Smilebong knew exactly what I meant. Put it into the full context.
In the second half you change where I said "fundamentalist" to "conservative" and think you have made a case by misrepresenting my post. I never said the mainstream churches were the only ones that teach this, and I did say the fundamentalists don't. Fortunately my post doesn't disappear and your misrepresentation of it is equally visible.

 

[Chuckt]

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

Society hands down the way you do things so you can be punished for your predecessors because you are following the way they wrongly did things.

Anyway, I answered your question already. You chose to ignore it.

 

[Newby]

You're still on my side, and you just HATE that!
Do you know how many people on here believe in the literal fiery hell?I was addressing THEM and you came charging in on your white horse, all the while not realizing you were defending ME! LOL!
I NEVER said that only liberal mainstream churches teach that separation from god is the true hell of the bible. I said it is their default position. This is another example of your poor reading comprehension, or your blatant dishonesty. I leave that to you.

You sure do have a short memory concerning your very own posts... apparently you believed it according to your post below. You didn't understand the concept of separation from God and hell being one and the same thing. So where exactly did you promote the concept that separation from God is what causes eternal torture? Oh, that's right, you never did.



Then you went on to say it was one interpretation and only mainstream liberal churches taught that while conservative churches held onto their belief of lake of fire... which also isn't true. Do you think your posts just disppear when a new page is started?

That is certainly one interpretation.
The irony is that the more liberal mainstream denominations have interpreted scripture exactly that way, while the fundamentalists are still preaching the lake of fire.I think they are both nonsense, personally.

Smilebong knew exactly what I meant. Put it into the full context.
In the second half you change where I said "fundamentalist" to "conservative" and think you have made a case by misrepresenting my post. I never said the mainstream churches were the only ones that teach this, and I did say the fundamentalists don't. Fortunately my post doesn't disappear and your misrepresentation of it is equally visible.

Your post implies two buckets for churches, liberal mainstream and fundamentalist, as you said, quite visable. The other post I quoted clearly shows you did not marry the concept of separation from God as being the cause of eternal torture for the soul, you saw them as two distinct punishments, yet now you wish to say we were 'agreeing', when in fact that was never the case. Sad when you have to lie to save face.

 

[The Irish Ram]

The point is obvious. If the afterlife for the Godless was simply a neutral situation absent of God, that would be a fair "reward" for being Godless in life.

If the reward isn't simply the absence of God, but also ETERNAL TORTURE, how is that fair?

If God is just -and- he loves each of us, how is -ETERNAL- torture a just punishment for -anything-?

You and your buddy Bruce, just don't get it, do you?? The very absence of God for the human soul is the cause of the eternal torture. You are separated from God for eternity, and that IS your torture. Read the Bible and educate yourself.

You haven't really argued against my point, though.

If separation from God equals out to eternal torture, then it is a function that God intentionally built into the soul.

Also, eternal torture is eternal torture. If God has the power to -not- torture us eternally, but he -does- consider it a just punishment for guessing his identity incorrectly, then which is the case? Is the Biblical God unjust or are our views on justice completely skewed?

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

Just the opposite.
Separation is not a function God built into our souls. Adam and Eve weren't even aware of sin, evil or separation from God before they fell. That was God's plan for all of us.
Our free will and arrogance acquainted us with Satan's plan for us.
God, rendered Satan ineffective toward us through the pure blood exchange on the cross.

Our views on justice are indeed skewed.
A God that is 100% merciful toward us, came to us in human form and paid the 100% just penalty for our free will, sinful decisions that could have been obstacles to an eternity of love and never being separated from our Father.

Sin is septic, it is passed from generation to generation. Pure blood removed the ailment.
By one man, Adam, did sin enter humans and by one man, Christ, it was removed.

What more do you require from God? Not holding you accountable for your transgressions against Him isn't enough for you?

 

[Hollie]

What does that have to do with the fact that there are Christians all over the planet? Are muslims contained to the middle east? Christianity was born much closer to Asia, than it was the west, i.e. the U.S., yet here it is predominant. Your 'argument' doesn't really make much sense. Not to mention that you're obviously a bit overdramatic since I haven't 'threatened' anyone with anything.

That was quite the sidestep. What a shame you can't be honest.

People more often than not, do not choose their theistic beliefs. Rarely do they apply very hard standards to those beliefs. They tend to be cultural (i.e., you grew up in a social environment that preferred one belief over another), or anecdotal (you believe in certain events that for you define a specific belief, like a Hindu may have examples of "reincarnation" whereas a Catholic will "see visions of Mary", etc.), or there is simply a resonance in the belief system you select. And of course, I'll even include the possibility (but not probability) that one selects a belief because they actually do hear directly from one or more asserted Supreme Beings.

I was exposed to my neighbor who was Jewish, my other neighbors who were Mormon, a Christian Scientist, my Father and the rest of my family who doesn't believe in God and I had a school mate who was a Jehovah's Witness. My class in elementary school was divided and they talked about religion in school and there was always argumentation.

I was sympathetic but didn't want any parts of a lot of it as I was always stubborn.

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

 

[Chuckt]

That was quite the sidestep. What a shame you can't be honest.

People more often than not, do not choose their theistic beliefs. Rarely do they apply very hard standards to those beliefs. They tend to be cultural (i.e., you grew up in a social environment that preferred one belief over another), or anecdotal (you believe in certain events that for you define a specific belief, like a Hindu may have examples of "reincarnation" whereas a Catholic will "see visions of Mary", etc.), or there is simply a resonance in the belief system you select. And of course, I'll even include the possibility (but not probability) that one selects a belief because they actually do hear directly from one or more asserted Supreme Beings.

I was exposed to my neighbor who was Jewish, my other neighbors who were Mormon, a Christian Scientist, my Father and the rest of my family who doesn't believe in God and I had a school mate who was a Jehovah's Witness. My class in elementary school was divided and they talked about religion in school and there was always argumentation.

I was sympathetic but didn't want any parts of a lot of it as I was always stubborn.

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

What I believe didn't come from the denominations around me because a lot of Churches today are dead Churches that don't understand their own doctrine. It basically came from a person acting as a missionary. Countries actually do send Christian missionaries to the United States. Historically, more people accept Christianity from a missionary than from people around them.

Second, if I lived in a Muslim country, I would probably be an atheist before I would be a Muslim.

 

[thebrucebeat]

I was exposed to my neighbor who was Jewish, my other neighbors who were Mormon, a Christian Scientist, my Father and the rest of my family who doesn't believe in God and I had a school mate who was a Jehovah's Witness. My class in elementary school was divided and they talked about religion in school and there was always argumentation.

I was sympathetic but didn't want any parts of a lot of it as I was always stubborn.

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

What I believe didn't come from the denominations around me because a lot of Churches today are dead Churches that don't understand their own doctrine. It basically came from a person acting as a missionary. Countries actually do send Christian missionaries to the United States. Historically, more people accept Christianity from a missionary than from people around them.

Second, if I lived in a Muslim country, I would probably be an atheist before I would be a Muslim.

With your propensity for being influenced and your desperate need for answers, there is absolutely no question you would have become a devout Islamist.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You and your buddy Bruce, just don't get it, do you?? The very absence of God for the human soul is the cause of the eternal torture. You are separated from God for eternity, and that IS your torture. Read the Bible and educate yourself.

You haven't really argued against my point, though.

If separation from God equals out to eternal torture, then it is a function that God intentionally built into the soul.

Also, eternal torture is eternal torture. If God has the power to -not- torture us eternally, but he -does- consider it a just punishment for guessing his identity incorrectly, then which is the case? Is the Biblical God unjust or are our views on justice completely skewed?

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

I wouldn't say 'silly', but obviously not on par with how God defines it. Mercy and love are not always about comfort and security, any parent knows that.

Let's say there is a God for sure, you die and you're standing before Him and you have to account for why you discarded everything you were shown, all evidence, what is your defense going to be for why you shouldn't now be separated from Him when you willingly did so on your own terms until the proof was before your eyes. Are you going to say you lacked faith? Didn't care to really know or understand the Bible? Because it's all in there, and it's being rejected, not only rejected but impuned and maligned.

No, mercy and love are not always about comfort and security, no. I don't believe in mercy as a constructive concept, but love -is- always about what is most good for the object of one's love. If that is the case, then the objective of punishment is to better the object of your love. Eternal torture doesn't better anyone. The finality of it doesn't allow for the future improvement that the loving punishment of a parent should rightly entail. That's like saying that punishing your child with death is well within the bounds of parental love. Is that your view?

That next paragraph is meaningless. If we knew for sure that the God of the Bible exists and is the one true God, we wouldn't be having this discussion at all and there'd be no reason for me to question Him. That is not the case. Changing the very nature of reality for your hypothetical and then asking if God's actions would make more sense doesn't do anything to answer whether or not they make sense now, which is actually what we're discussing.

From a realistic standpoint, let's say that the God of the Bible does turn out to be God, and when I die, I'm standing before him in judgement.

God knows all of my thoughts and emotions accurately. God knows that I was raised in an evangelical church, 6 days a week. God knows that I read my bible and did everything in my power, for the first 17, 18 years of my life, to believe His word. God knows that everything that has been presented to me as evidence could potentially be explained by something else, and he understands that my mind cannot be stopped from acknowledging that other explanations could potentially exist. God also knows he didn't give me any faculties other than my brain and my senses to determine the nature of reality, and that, given those faculties, there is no way I could have known beyond the shadow of a doubt that any one of the potential explanations could be -the one- without being able to eliminate the other possibilities, and he knows that he gave me -no- way to logically eliminate the other possibilities.

Essentially, an infallible God would know that, in me, he created a creature unable to find a concept truly compelling without proof, and he knows that I've never been presented with proof. An infallible God would know that I had -no- true control over what I ended up believing, and a just God, in my view, wouldn't punish me for something over which I had -no- control. He also wouldn't punish me with ETERNAL TORTURE.

Maybe my views on justice are wrong, though? If so, why is it just to punish someone for something they had no power to change? If so, how is ETERNAL TORTURE a just punishment for anyone?

These two questions, which I've been posing from the get-go, have still not been answered.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

Society hands down the way you do things so you can be punished for your predecessors because you are following the way they wrongly did things.

Anyway, I answered your question already. You chose to ignore it.

You didn't answer anything, with your Adam prototype statement -or- this society passes shit down statement.

Both of these statements -still- say that humans are being punished for things they didn't do, themselves.

When a baby is born, he is born into -this- world, outside of Eden, afflicted by the curse. As soon as the baby is brought into this world, he's subject to death. So every infant is immediately paying penance, yet hasn't had a chance to so much as consider sinning, or the intellectual faculties to understand it at all.

Every infant is born into punishment for Adam's sins. If the infants themselves HAVEN'T YET SINNED, how is it just for them to be paying penance?

You cannot separate Biblical justice from the concept of punishing someone for someone else's crimes, and not for anything they did themselves.

When Pharaoh wouldn't release the Jews, God killed all the first born sons of Egypt. This is another of my favorite examples. Sodom and Gomorrah were wiped out, man woman and child, for being sinful places. Was every infant and toddler guilty of the buttfuckery for which they were smote?

If you can't separate Biblical, Godly justice from the concept of punishing people for things they had nothing to do with, then you must either say that the God of the Bible is unjust, or that it is just to punish someone for the crimes of someone else.

Or at least that it's just to punish someone for the probability of future criminal activity. Is that the case? Would the society presented in Minority Report be the ultimate form of human justice?

When Al Bundy went upside Bud Bundy's head and, when asked why, said, "That's for what you're -gonna- do!", was he just being Godly?

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You and your buddy Bruce, just don't get it, do you?? The very absence of God for the human soul is the cause of the eternal torture. You are separated from God for eternity, and that IS your torture. Read the Bible and educate yourself.

You haven't really argued against my point, though.

If separation from God equals out to eternal torture, then it is a function that God intentionally built into the soul.

Also, eternal torture is eternal torture. If God has the power to -not- torture us eternally, but he -does- consider it a just punishment for guessing his identity incorrectly, then which is the case? Is the Biblical God unjust or are our views on justice completely skewed?

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

Just the opposite.
Separation is not a function God built into our souls. Adam and Eve weren't even aware of sin, evil or separation from God before they fell. That was God's plan for all of us.
Our free will and arrogance acquainted us with Satan's plan for us.
God, rendered Satan ineffective toward us through the pure blood exchange ton the cross.

Our views on justice are indeed skewed.
A God that is 100% merciful toward us, came to us in human form and paid the 100% just penalty for our free will, sinful decisions that could have been obstacles to an eternity of love and never being separated from our Father.

Sin is septic, it is past from generation to generation. Pure blood removed the ailment.
By one man, Adam, did sin enter humans and by one man, Christ, it was removed.

What more do you require from God? Not holding you accountable for your transgressions against Him isn't enough for you?

So God's plan was that Adam and Eve -wouldn't- eat the fruit and get us all in hot water? And then they did? So God's plan went awry? So God isn't infallible? Gotcha.

Or maybe that's not what you meant, and God -is- infallible and all-powerful. If he's infallible, then he -knew- that the way he designed Adam and Eve would leave them vulnerable to the snake's influence, and, though he (all-powerful) had the ability to build them without such vulnerability, chose not to.

Moreover, how could you say that God didn't build -anything- into our souls if it's there? If he didn't put it there directly, then he knowingly (infallible) designed creation to be able to build errant shit into us. No matter how you look at it, God is directly and knowingly responsible (all knowing, all powerful, infallible) for every aspect of all of existence, including the Earth, including hell, including the angels and the demons. If he is infallible and all-powerful, then nothing that happened was by mistake, including Satan, including the snake, and including Adam and Eve fucking up in the garden. If God is infallible and all powerful, this -all- had to be by design. Period. Otherwise, he's either not infallible or not all-powerful.

There's really no way around this that I see, but perhaps your perspective is different, so I'll pose this again. If God is infallible, then everything that is and everything that happens is by his intentional design, because any unintended result of his creation would prove that he is fallible.

If he intended for everything that happens, how is it just for him to punish anyone for anything?

Or is God, and therefore the Bible's very integrity, fallible?

I really love how you end with these questions, as though I'm ungrateful for Jesus's sacrifice. I don't believe, Ramgirl, if that's not totally obvious. It's not because I'm mad at God for not being just enough or I feel like he owes me more mercy. It's because I've never seen any evidence for Christianity that I found compelling.

The fact that I've never been given any proof of God's existence means that if I'm committing transgressions against him, I truly have no way of knowing that it's happening. Therefore, it's -not- enough that he doesn't hold me responsible for those. He fuckin -shouldn't-! That should be a given. I also wouldn't thank you for not choking me out for stepping on your spirit turtle. Nobody should -ever- be punished for things they had no control over. Of course, that's just my view.

That said, if I believed, yes, I might be ungrateful. No, that wouldn't be enough for me, because it would still leave me being punished for Adam's bullshit and it would still leave me susceptible to ETERNAL TORTURE, which I don't believe to be a just punishment for -anything-

 

[Chuckt]

That was quite the sidestep. What a shame you can't be honest.

People more often than not, do not choose their theistic beliefs. Rarely do they apply very hard standards to those beliefs. They tend to be cultural (i.e., you grew up in a social environment that preferred one belief over another), or anecdotal (you believe in certain events that for you define a specific belief, like a Hindu may have examples of "reincarnation" whereas a Catholic will "see visions of Mary", etc.), or there is simply a resonance in the belief system you select. And of course, I'll even include the possibility (but not probability) that one selects a belief because they actually do hear directly from one or more asserted Supreme Beings.

I was exposed to my neighbor who was Jewish, my other neighbors who were Mormon, a Christian Scientist, my Father and the rest of my family who doesn't believe in God and I had a school mate who was a Jehovah's Witness. My class in elementary school was divided and they talked about religion in school and there was always argumentation.

I was sympathetic but didn't want any parts of a lot of it as I was always stubborn.

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

We have Mission Sunday at church and their statistics say there will be more Chinese missionaries and Christians in China in a few years. This doesn't. Follow your theory.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

You and your buddy Bruce, just don't get it, do you?? The very absence of God for the human soul is the cause of the eternal torture. You are separated from God for eternity, and that IS your torture. Read the Bible and educate yourself.

You haven't really argued against my point, though.

If separation from God equals out to eternal torture, then it is a function that God intentionally built into the soul.

Also, eternal torture is eternal torture. If God has the power to -not- torture us eternally, but he -does- consider it a just punishment for guessing his identity incorrectly, then which is the case? Is the Biblical God unjust or are our views on justice completely skewed?

Also, how do you explain the justice in punishing all of mankind for the sins of Adam? Again, is God in the Bible unjust, or are our ideas of justice completely silly? Should people be held responsible for the acts of their predecessors?

Just the opposite.
Separation is not a function God built into our souls. Adam and Eve weren't even aware of sin, evil or separation from God before they fell. That was God's plan for all of us.
Our free will and arrogance acquainted us with Satan's plan for us.
God, rendered Satan ineffective toward us through the pure blood exchange on the cross.

Our views on justice are indeed skewed.
A God that is 100% merciful toward us, came to us in human form and paid the 100% just penalty for our free will, sinful decisions that could have been obstacles to an eternity of love and never being separated from our Father.

Sin is septic, it is past from generation to generation. Pure blood removed the ailment.
By one man, Adam, did sin enter humans and by one man, Christ, it was removed.

What more do you require from God? Not holding you accountable for your transgressions against Him isn't enough for you?

Also, I would demand of God the same that I would demand of anyone who claims to love me infinitely.

"If you love me, how could you be willing to cause me pain that is not to my benefit?"

 

[The Irish Ram]

God's not fallible, but we sure are.
100% just regarding our free will was responsible for the tree of Knowledge of good and evil being present and accessible.

Before the foundation for our habitat was formed God and Jesus knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and exactly how to reverse the effect of what they did. And decided that we were worth it anyway. Especially when you consider the vapor of a time we are subjected to in this environment, as oppose to eternity.

100% merciful is blotting out our sins and replacing the vacancy with love. He gave us Eden and a well advised warning. Eve did the rest. You had no control over what Eve did OR what Jesus did to counter it. Christ gave you a free slate.

So, understand that had Adam and Eve not sinned, you still would have. Christ's redeeming blanket of coverage applies to us all, as sons of Adam and as children of God. And it is a gift.
You have no grudge against God for holding you accountable for Eve's indiscretion. He does not. He didn't even hold Adam and Eve accountable. And promises not to hold you accountable for your sins as well. Sounds pretty fair......

This God that can't wait for you to screw up so he can devour you does not exist. Instead, it is a Father working miracles to undo the stupid crap we do daily.
If our eternity is determined by our free will during this mist of time we spend in this state, what you have is a choice. Choose the gift.

You need proof though. Ok. Let's discuss the much avoided act of prophecy. And then let's examine the 'posting' criteria of Matthew. But first I want to know, "what are the odds?"
What do you require before coincidences at some point become evidence?

Eternal torment is not God's choice for man. It was created for Satan and his demons.

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

God's not fallible, but we sure are.
100% just regarding our free will was responsible for the tree of Knowledge of good and evil being present and accessible.

Before the foundation for our habitat was formed God and Jesus knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and exactly how to reverse the effect of what they did. And decided that we were worth it anyway. Especially when you consider the vapor of a time we are subjected to in this environment, as oppose to eternity.

100% merciful is blotting out our sins and replacing the vacancy with love. He gave us Eden and a well advised warning. Eve did the rest. You had no control over what Eve did OR what Jesus did to counter it. Christ gave you a free slate.

So, understand that had Adam and Eve not sinned, you still would have. Christ's redeeming blanket of coverage applies to us all, as sons of Adam and as children of God. And it is a gift.
You have no grudge against God for holding you accountable for Eve's indiscretion. He does not. He didn't even hold Adam and Eve accountable. And promises not to hold you accountable for your sins as well. Sounds pretty fair......

This God that can't wait for you to screw up so he can devour you does not exist. Instead, it is a Father working miracles to undo the stupid crap we do daily.
If our eternity is determined by our free will during this mist of time we spend in this state, what you have is a choice. Choose the gift.

You need proof though. Ok. Let's discuss the much avoided act of prophecy. And then let's examine the 'posting' criteria of Matthew. But first I want to know, "what are the odds?"
What do you require before coincidences at some point become evidence?

Eternal torment is not God's choice for man. It was created for Satan and his demons.

You're still not getting this. The fact that he offered us a potential way out of punishment does -not- change anything that I've said.

An infallible and all-powerful creator -knew- he was creating creatures that would inevitably sin and -could have- built them without that capacity.

He did not. He -intentionally- designed a species that wouldn't be able to avoid sin, and then decided later down the line that he'd offer them a way out, but that they had to guess without conclusive proof that the guy they were praying to was the correct way out.

He designed us for failure, is willing to punish us for that failure, and demands that we guess correctly who his kid is to avoid that punishment. Also, that punishment is ETERNAL TORTURE!

How is that love or justice?

He designed a species of billions of sentient beings that he -knew- he would ultimately end up subjecting to eternal torture. Whether he intended it mostly for Satan or not doesn't change the fact that

Also, on a side note, what of those people who had to exist between Genesis and Jesus? Those people who didn't have the Christ way out, and had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their inevitable sins? Did God take a break from love and justice during that period?

Next, when you say he didn't hold Adam or Eve accountable for their sin, HOLY SHIT WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

He kicked them out of the garden of Eden and cursed the Earth. That wasn't meant to be punishment? Was that just God's version of punching a wall to vent his frustration?

I'm not saying that he "can't wait for me to screw up so he can devour me". I'm saying he designed me knowing I would screw up from the get-go, sent me out into the cursed Earth that Adam and Eve's sin gained us even before I'd had a chance to sin, and he's down to punish me for the failures that he INTENTIONALLY BUILT INTO ME!

Again, a human living by the example of your God would give birth to a child, have an eye removed from that child, then pick a person who that child would have to apologize to for being half blind. IF the child didn't figure out who to say sorry to, the Godly parent would torture that child as horribly and for as long as was possible, and with ultimate finality (only death, no chance for future redemption). That would be the just act of a loving parent, assuming that your God is just and loving.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Right. Which is your sidestepping the demographics that you can easily confirm on your own. The vast majority of believers simply accept the religion of their familial / cultural surroundings.

What I believe didn't come from the denominations around me because a lot of Churches today are dead Churches that don't understand their own doctrine. It basically came from a person acting as a missionary. Countries actually do send Christian missionaries to the United States. Historically, more people accept Christianity from a missionary than from people around them.

Second, if I lived in a Muslim country, I would probably be an atheist before I would be a Muslim.

With your propensity for being influenced and your desperate need for answers, there is absolutely no question you would have become a devout Islamist.

With your propensity to judge and your desperate need to ridicule those of faith, I wonder if your civility was discarded with your faith? Is it your disbelief that promotes such contempt for those that don't follow your opinions? Why so nasty???

 

[The Irish Ram]

God's not fallible, but we sure are.
100% just regarding our free will was responsible for the tree of Knowledge of good and evil being present and accessible.

Before the foundation for our habitat was formed God and Jesus knew exactly what Adam and Eve would do and exactly how to reverse the effect of what they did. And decided that we were worth it anyway. Especially when you consider the vapor of a time we are subjected to in this environment, as oppose to eternity.

100% merciful is blotting out our sins and replacing the vacancy with love. He gave us Eden and a well advised warning. Eve did the rest. You had no control over what Eve did OR what Jesus did to counter it. Christ gave you a free slate.

So, understand that had Adam and Eve not sinned, you still would have. Christ's redeeming blanket of coverage applies to us all, as sons of Adam and as children of God. And it is a gift.
You have no grudge against God for holding you accountable for Eve's indiscretion. He does not. He didn't even hold Adam and Eve accountable. And promises not to hold you accountable for your sins as well. Sounds pretty fair......

This God that can't wait for you to screw up so he can devour you does not exist. Instead, it is a Father working miracles to undo the stupid crap we do daily.
If our eternity is determined by our free will during this mist of time we spend in this state, what you have is a choice. Choose the gift.

You need proof though. Ok. Let's discuss the much avoided act of prophecy. And then let's examine the 'posting' criteria of Matthew. But first I want to know, "what are the odds?"
What do you require before coincidences at some point become evidence?

Eternal torment is not God's choice for man. It was created for Satan and his demons.

You're still not getting this. The fact that he offered us a potential way out of punishment does -not- change anything that I've said.

An infallible and all-powerful creator -knew- he was creating creatures that would inevitably sin and -could have- built them without that capacity.

He did not. He -intentionally- designed a species that wouldn't be able to avoid sin, and then decided later down the line that he'd offer them a way out, but that they had to guess without conclusive proof that the guy they were praying to was the correct way out.

He designed us for failure, is willing to punish us for that failure, and demands that we guess correctly who his kid is to avoid that punishment. Also, that punishment is ETERNAL TORTURE!

How is that love or justice?

He designed a species of billions of sentient beings that he -knew- he would ultimately end up subjecting to eternal torture. Whether he intended it mostly for Satan or not doesn't change the fact that

Also, on a side note, what of those people who had to exist between Genesis and Jesus? Those people who didn't have the Christ way out, and had to make blood sacrifices to atone for their inevitable sins? Did God take a break from love and justice during that period?

Next, when you say he didn't hold Adam or Eve accountable for their sin, HOLY SHIT WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!?

He kicked them out of the garden of Eden and cursed the Earth. That wasn't meant to be punishment? Was that just God's version of punching a wall to vent his frustration?

I'm not saying that he "can't wait for me to screw up so he can devour me". I'm saying he designed me knowing I would screw up from the get-go, sent me out into the cursed Earth that Adam and Eve's sin gained us even before I'd had a chance to sin, and he's down to punish me for the failures that he INTENTIONALLY BUILT INTO ME!

Again, a human living by the example of your God would give birth to a child, have an eye removed from that child, then pick a person who that child would have to apologize to for being half blind. IF the child didn't figure out who to say sorry to, the Godly parent would torture that child as horribly and for as long as was possible, and with ultimate finality (only death, no chance for future redemption). That would be the just act of a loving parent, assuming that your God is just and loving.

When God created man 2 things existed, good, and evil. He could have created us to do His will only. If He had, you'd be here screaming foul because He didn't let you decide for yourself. He stole your free will. He's not fair.
He is willing to let us make mistakes as part of our growth as a human. Then He forgives and truly forgets our immature mistakes. If we are weak in an area, and adversity builds character in that area, are we too precious to stub our toe while learning to walk?

If you had children, did you demand perfection or else? Neither does our heavenly Father. Did you forgive your kids when they messed up and show them how to avoid calamity in the future? Did you have rules? Did you ever have to punish your children? For their sake or for yours? Did they make mistakes even though they had you for a father? So do we. Do you hold their mistakes against them? Neither does God.

Who had to guess who they were dealing with? God walked on this earth with Adam and Eve. They didn't have to figure out who He was. Neither did their kids. They knew Him. God placed the blame for Adam being deceived directly on Satan. What He did for Adam and Eve was to cover them to prevent their sin from separating them from Him. He removed them from the sin free zone of the Garden, and went with them.

In His time, not yours, He intends to restore this earth to it's original splendor. And remove us from Satan's grasp completely. And instead of turning His children into robokids, He gave us the ability to decide for ourselves where we would best enjoy eternity.

So, are you mad at God for offering the gift of eternal life in His presence, or are you mad that the gift of life is necessary to begin with?
Are you mad about not being born in more palatable surroundings like Heaven, instead of having to endure down here on earth for a moment?

And,
He is NOT down to punish you for being human. To the extent that you are flawed, He is perfect in that area. Let Him help . Where you are weakest, He is at His strongest. Let Him.......

 

[thebrucebeat]

What I believe didn't come from the denominations around me because a lot of Churches today are dead Churches that don't understand their own doctrine. It basically came from a person acting as a missionary. Countries actually do send Christian missionaries to the United States. Historically, more people accept Christianity from a missionary than from people around them.

Second, if I lived in a Muslim country, I would probably be an atheist before I would be a Muslim.

With your propensity for being influenced and your desperate need for answers, there is absolutely no question you would have become a devout Islamist.

With your propensity to judge and your desperate need to ridicule those of faith, I wonder if your civility was discarded with your faith? Is it your disbelief that promotes such contempt for those that don't follow your opinions? Why so nasty???

What I said about him is true of people in general. They are afraid, not very bright and are rather easily influenced. The greatest influence comes from their own culture. You and he are Christians because it was nearly inevitable. The young boy in Afghanistan is undoubtedly, statistically, going to be a Muslim.
Will there be exceptions? Of course, but the statistics are astronomical, everywhere.
What opinion? You can look it up.
Then immediately claim YOU would be the exception.
Of course you would.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Like Abram's culture? Surrounded by idolatry. Dad being an idol manufacturer. That kind of inevitable?
Are you afraid, not very bright and easily influenced, or are you the exception?