Time for a third party?

[Divine Wind]

Time for a 3rd party? We have more than 2, it's only a matter of voting for them.

Yes, I agree and I do, but most people won't because they fall for the mantra that third party candidates don't stand a chance in general elections. Well, I think that this is probably the 2 main parties' mantra that they are spreading. Lol.

As a country, we really need to stand together and vote both main political parties out of office. They have become too powerful and corrupt. Neither is "less evil" than the other.

The problem is people not voting for third party because they don't think they can win is why they can't win.

You have to finally reach the point I did where I decided it just doesn't matter which of the two parties I vote for, it's the same result. Then I was free to stop voting for them

In 2012 the Libertarians party couldn't even crack 1%, not one. There is more of a problem than just people won't vote for them because they can't win.

That's changing. More and more millennials identify with libertarian belief system. The party is growing as we speak! Soon, hopefully, both of the main parties who have had a stranglehold on our government will be a thing of the past.

Millennials Are More Likely to Identify as Libertarians. Why That's Good News for Rand Paul.

How did that good news work out for Rand Paul?

About the same as it worked out for Walter Mondale, Mike Dukakis, Al Gore and John Kerry.

 

[Divine Wind]

I see you making a lot of excusing of the two main parties but not coming up with any solutions. I suspect you are a democrat.

I've already said I was a Democrat, so your suspicions are based on the obvious.

So, I'm more or less happy with my party, I don't have any unrealistic beliefs that they will always do the right thing. Others in this thread don't have a party they can support but most likely vote for the Republicans anyway and then bitch and complain and make excuses for not finding a more suitable party for their political beliefs.

The thread is about third parties. That is why we are discussing it.

Yes and I'm giving you my opinion on 3rd parties, why they don't do well and why people who complain about the 2 major parties yet either continue to vote for them or actually vote for the 3rd party but get miffed when others don't follow their 'lead'.
It's a real tough shit scenario. Vote 3rd party and do what you can to improve their chances or continue to compromise your values and vote D or R. It's up to you but as I've stated before a 'viable' 3rd party is not going to plop into your lap.

Says a democrat voter. Lol. Like I said, the libertarian party and libertarian principals are becoming more and more mainstream. People feel disenfranchised and are tired of the "establishments" on both sides.

No man is an Island and the Libertarian Party lacks a pragmatic foundation, my two general objections to the party.

A key point that they need to build a solid foundation in local and state elections.

 

[320 Years of History]

The poll below shows many Americans, like myself, feel that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans represent our interests. Is it time for a third party? I say yes....and so do many other Americans.

No surprise that's what Gallup found. Pew's party affiliation study shows substantively the same thing.

(click the pic to access the study)​

Independents wouldn't comprise a proportionally larger share of the populace than either Dems or Reps if most folks felt at least one of the two major parties represented their views.

 

[kaz]

a third party will solve nothing. Work with what you have and make that work for you.

Why? Do you know Einstein's definition of insanity?

Yes...reading your post.

I know I was just being goofy with you.

Any work that supports our own goals is hard and sometimes does not come to fruition, but when it does that victory is sweet. Seems to me that if you have a gender issue, a PC agenda or just want to shove a bunch of social nonsense down the throats of others, in my experience, staying within your own party is the way to get things accomplished

The two party system gets worse and worse and the parties get more and more alike in what they actually do. Republicans spend more and more like Democrats and Obama's military policy is pure W just like Clinton's was. What makes you think that is going to suddenly change? Hence my Einstein question ...

 

[kaz]

I've voted Libertarian 3 of the 5 elections since I considered myself libertarian. Unfortunately the last two they were attention whoring and nominated conservatives who weren't libertarian. Gary Johnson changed his positions after being nominated, but that doesn't have credibility with me.

Also, the Libertarians have too many purity tests. They are more party than libertarian. I'm not sure how they are viable, I don't think they want to be viable. They like looking down their noses at everyone. And they stupid shit like comparing Trump's immigration policies to the Nazis. It's hard to take them seriously

I do agree that some of their views are "far out" but they are better than the alternatives, IMO.

The Libertarian Party has some common characteristics of the late 60's, Turn on, Tune in, Drop out. It is iconoclastic + utopian - pragmatic thought, IMO.

If everybody acted with the best of intentions then a Libertarianism would be just fine. However, that is not the real world.

Bull, it's the other way around. Libertarianism is based on actual human nature. People act in their own interest. So let's just have a government that protects us from each other. Liberalism is based on the lie that people will act in someone else's interest. no one does, especially liberals

I can't follow the libertarian platforms. Some of them are just too far fetched and kind of cold hearted for me to be able to believe in.

Like what?

 

[kaz]

I've voted Libertarian 3 of the 5 elections since I considered myself libertarian. Unfortunately the last two they were attention whoring and nominated conservatives who weren't libertarian. Gary Johnson changed his positions after being nominated, but that doesn't have credibility with me.

Also, the Libertarians have too many purity tests. They are more party than libertarian. I'm not sure how they are viable, I don't think they want to be viable. They like looking down their noses at everyone. And they stupid shit like comparing Trump's immigration policies to the Nazis. It's hard to take them seriously

I do agree that some of their views are "far out" but they are better than the alternatives, IMO.

The Libertarian Party has some common characteristics of the late 60's, Turn on, Tune in, Drop out. It is iconoclastic + utopian - pragmatic thought, IMO.

If everybody acted with the best of intentions then a Libertarianism would be just fine. However, that is not the real world.

Bull, it's the other way around. Libertarianism is based on actual human nature. People act in their own interest. So let's just have a government that protects us from each other. Liberalism is based on the lie that people will act in someone else's interest. no one does, especially liberals

Libertarianism is based on a wet dream that humans are always kind and fair to each other.

LMAO, again, that's the liberal dream. The libertarian reality is that we aren't always kind and fair to each other.

What you don't grasp is choice. You believe that when you remove choice and accountability that government will act in our interest and be "kind and fair" to us. They aren't. Libertarianism lets the people who are kind and fair be kind and fair, liberalism pushes them out of the way for people who take the money and use it in their own interest.

Your blind faith in greedy and corrupt politicians and bureaucrats who use "charity" to confiscate money they turn around and use for their own benefit contradicts all empirical evidence and then you continue to blindly support it anyway. Obviously without government forced dependency, I mean charity, you're on the side of people who wouldn't do shit for anyone.

 

[kaz]

Bull, it's the other way around. Libertarianism is based on actual human nature. People act in their own interest. So let's just have a government that protects us from each other. Liberalism is based on the lie that people will act in someone else's interest. no one does, especially liberals

I can't follow the libertarian platforms. Some of them are just too far fetched and kind of cold hearted for me to be able to believe in.

Oh-oh, that viable 3rd party is drifting further and further away, you just lost the libertarians.

There are libertarian candidates whose views are not far from my own.

Yeah, what about them do you like? For starters, they are in the Libertarian party.

I like that they align more with the "center" than with any particular ideological viewpoints. There are plenty of democrats and republicans who will claim they are more aligned with the center, but they obviously are not.

Libertarianism is the moderate ideology. We want to leave people alone. Neither party wants to leave us alone. They are the extremists

 

[kaz]

I can't follow the libertarian platforms. Some of them are just too far fetched and kind of cold hearted for me to be able to believe in.

Oh-oh, that viable 3rd party is drifting further and further away, you just lost the libertarians.

There are libertarian candidates whose views are not far from my own.

Yeah, what about them do you like? For starters, they are in the Libertarian party.

I like that they align more with the "center" than with any particular ideological viewpoints. There are plenty of democrats and republicans who will claim they are more aligned with the center, but they obviously are not.

How are Libertarians necessarily aligned with the center? Give me an example, considering they are a fringe party.

Please, something more in depth than they are 'fiscally responsible and socially liberal'.

Well, as for libertarians, if we get our way, you are still free to make your own choices. Every time you get your way, our choices are removed. You're the extremists.

Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

 

[OldLady]

I've been an independent for over 40 years, and I'll tell you why. Canned answers from an organized "party platform" don't cut it; they rarely fit right. I could care less what party a candidate is from and imo neither should anyone else. People should choose the best person with the views they agree with to represent them. I am not at all sure the primaries would have gone the way they have if Independents had a free hand to vote in them. There are a lot of independents and we'll see if the election is as predictable as the pundits think.

Shouldn't political parties have a right to choose their own candidates?

If changes need to be made, then why not make it in election reform? Such as how candidates collect and spend money. The length of the election season. The winner-take all aspect of voting.

I see your point, but at the end of that closed primary process, the American public has its two candidates to choose from. It's a pretty important choice to leave out such a large # of voters, don't you think?
I think your suggestions for election reform are great, but it still wouldn't solve the problem above, would it? Why is it so awful to let Independents (who MIGHT vote your way) have a choice in who runs for President?

 

[Divine Wind]

The poll below shows many Americans, like myself, feel that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans represent our interests. Is it time for a third party? I say yes....and so do many other Americans.

No surprise that's what Gallup found. Pew's party affiliation study shows substantively the same thing.

(click the pic to access the study)​

Independents wouldn't comprise a proportionally larger share of the populace than either Dems or Reps if most folks felt at least one of the two major parties represented their views.

Agreed. As many may have seen on CNN today in discussing the popularity of Trump (and to some extent, Bernie) many, if not most, Americans don't feel represented by either party. Special interests get a lot of attention, but mainstream Americans (e.g. middle class, blue collar males) do not. They've seen their jobs downsized or disappear, replacement jobs pay less. Their houses are worth less or not appreciating at all (remember when buying a house was the best investment you could make?). Their prices have gone up, their financial security has gone down and Washington doesn't give a shit since it focuses more on helping either the very rich or the very poor. Trump has tapped into that angst and is using it to kick Hillary's ass....along with all Republicans.

 

[HappyJoy]

I do agree that some of their views are "far out" but they are better than the alternatives, IMO.

The Libertarian Party has some common characteristics of the late 60's, Turn on, Tune in, Drop out. It is iconoclastic + utopian - pragmatic thought, IMO.

If everybody acted with the best of intentions then a Libertarianism would be just fine. However, that is not the real world.

Bull, it's the other way around. Libertarianism is based on actual human nature. People act in their own interest. So let's just have a government that protects us from each other. Liberalism is based on the lie that people will act in someone else's interest. no one does, especially liberals

Libertarianism is based on a wet dream that humans are always kind and fair to each other.

LMAO, again, that's the liberal dream. The libertarian reality is that we aren't always kind and fair to each other.

What you don't grasp is choice. You believe that when you remove choice and accountability that government will act in our interest and be "kind and fair" to us. They aren't. Libertarianism lets the people who are kind and fair be kind and fair, liberalism pushes them out of the way for people who take the money and use it in their own interest.

Your blind faith in greedy and corrupt politicians and bureaucrats who use "charity" to confiscate money they turn around and use for their own benefit contradicts all empirical evidence and then you continue to blindly support it anyway. Obviously without government forced dependency, I mean charity, you're on the side of people who wouldn't do shit for anyone.

I'm looking for best possible governance, not perfect government as that is impossible to attain. Where as Libertarians would want to leave the civil rights movement up to popular whim, let the markets sort it out. Well, they did and we had segregation until the federal government stepped in.

There is no country on the face of this earth that follows any semblance of libertariansim. Not one and the closest comparisons are anarchistic shitholes that lack a strong centralized government.

 

[kaz]

I'm looking for best possible governance, not perfect government as that is impossible to attain.

Thomas Jefferson put it best: "That government is best that governs least"

Where as Libertarians would want to leave the civil rights movement up to popular whim, let the markets sort it out. Well, they did and we had segregation until the federal government stepped in.

You're making the stupid assumption that civil rights = the civil rights act. Bull crap.

Segregation was a GOVERNMENT institution, Holmes. And the Federal government used that to violate the 5th amendment and regulate private businesses who overwhemlingly weren't discriminating while violating the 10th amendment by using power not granted to them and the 9th as well. Jim Crow were government laws. On the other hand, the Montgomery Bus system opposed the rules that drove their best, most reliable customers out of their seats and to the back.

We had plenty of laws to protect blacks. Civil and criminal courts for when injustice was actually done to them. The Civil Rights Act was just another chance for a government power grab

There is no country on the face of this earth that follows any semblance of libertariansim. Not one and the closest comparisons are anarchistic shitholes that lack a strong centralized government.

Libertarian philosophy created the greatest, wealthiest, most powerful country in the history of man. The United States of America. But you're right that you and the rest of the greedy parasites are ending that through tyranny of the majority

 

[HappyJoy]

Oh-oh, that viable 3rd party is drifting further and further away, you just lost the libertarians.

There are libertarian candidates whose views are not far from my own.

Yeah, what about them do you like? For starters, they are in the Libertarian party.

I like that they align more with the "center" than with any particular ideological viewpoints. There are plenty of democrats and republicans who will claim they are more aligned with the center, but they obviously are not.

How are Libertarians necessarily aligned with the center? Give me an example, considering they are a fringe party.

Please, something more in depth than they are 'fiscally responsible and socially liberal'.

Well, as for libertarians, if we get our way, you are still free to make your own choices. Every time you get your way, our choices are removed. You're the extremists.

Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

I get to make my own choices every single day. However, if I'm a large corporation I can't pollute the water and thanks to politicians of all stripes (except libertarians) there is a government agency that deals with that sort of thing. A pretty moderate view.

I don't have the right to discriminate in my place of business. Again, thanks to Democrats and Republicans we have the civil rights act. Not the libertarian running for president at the time though. Civil Rights act = a moderate view.

Using yourself as a source = fail.

 

[kaz]

There are libertarian candidates whose views are not far from my own.

Yeah, what about them do you like? For starters, they are in the Libertarian party.

I like that they align more with the "center" than with any particular ideological viewpoints. There are plenty of democrats and republicans who will claim they are more aligned with the center, but they obviously are not.

How are Libertarians necessarily aligned with the center? Give me an example, considering they are a fringe party.

Please, something more in depth than they are 'fiscally responsible and socially liberal'.

Well, as for libertarians, if we get our way, you are still free to make your own choices. Every time you get your way, our choices are removed. You're the extremists.

Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

I get to make my own choices every single day. However, if I'm a large corporation I can't pollute the water and thanks to politicians of all stripes (except libertarians) there is a government agency that deals with that sort of thing. A pretty moderate view.

I don't have the right to discriminate in my place of business. Again, thanks to Democrats and Republicans we have the civil rights act. Not the libertarian running for president at the time though. Civil Rights act = a moderate view.

Using yourself as a source = fail.

Wrong, if you pollute the air and water and it affects other citizens, which obviously it would, government can totally stop you and take your property and give it to the people you harmed, shut you down, put you in jail or whatever needs to be done based on what exactly you did.

We're not anarchists, moron. You just keep your empty headed criticism of something you don't even understand. Though I'll grant you if you're restricted to things you do understand you wouldn't be able to post much ...

 

[HappyJoy]

I'm looking for best possible governance, not perfect government as that is impossible to attain.

Thomas Jefferson put it best: "That government is best that governs least"

He also had slaves and was probably kind of rapey with them. He also only wanted white male land owners to vote. Hard to believe but we've evolved from Jefferson. Great start, we've improved.

Where as Libertarians would want to leave the civil rights movement up to popular whim, let the markets sort it out. Well, they did and we had segregation until the federal government stepped in.

You're making the stupid assumption that civil rights = the civil rights act. Bull crap.

No. the civil rights act was established to protect civil rights.

Segregation was a GOVERNMENT institution, Holmes. And the Federal government used that to violate the 5th amendment and regulate private businesses who overwhemlingly weren't discriminating while violating the 10th amendment by using power not granted to them and the 9th as well. Jim Crow were government laws. On the other hand, the Montgomery Bus system opposed the rules that drove their best, most reliable customers out of their seats and to the back.

Segregation was realized by the federal government that it deprived citizens of their rights and then went after southern states who were letting the majority override the rights of minorities. Libertarians, nowhere to be found, not one way or another but certainly not a part of any solution.

FYI, libertarians didn't end slavery either and I bet you're not to pleased the way Lincoln went about it either, huh, libertarian?

We had plenty of laws to protect blacks. Civil and criminal courts for when injustice was actually done to them. The Civil Rights Act was just another chance for a government power grab

How come they didn't have the same level of access to commerce? Once again, the civil rights act = a moderate view in 2016. To libertarians, it's evil government encroachment. Libertarians are a fringe party based on fantasy. And the more fringy part side of Libertarians is by far the craziest, stupidest bunch of mind fucks one could ever wish to never encounter.

There is no country on the face of this earth that follows any semblance of libertariansim. Not one and the closest comparisons are anarchistic shitholes that lack a strong centralized government.

Libertarian philosophy created the greatest, wealthiest, most powerful country in the history of man. The United States of America. But you're right that you and the rest of the greedy parasites are ending that through tyranny of the majority

No it didn't. Our forefathers were not libertarians. For starters they were weary of the power of corporations, they taxed products and those who didn't pay, paid in other ways.

There was debate about the power of a federal government vs. states, about religious standard and other things that determined what was proper governance. One thing was clear, they wanted the government in charge.

 

[HappyJoy]

Yeah, what about them do you like? For starters, they are in the Libertarian party.

I like that they align more with the "center" than with any particular ideological viewpoints. There are plenty of democrats and republicans who will claim they are more aligned with the center, but they obviously are not.

How are Libertarians necessarily aligned with the center? Give me an example, considering they are a fringe party.

Please, something more in depth than they are 'fiscally responsible and socially liberal'.

Well, as for libertarians, if we get our way, you are still free to make your own choices. Every time you get your way, our choices are removed. You're the extremists.

Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

I get to make my own choices every single day. However, if I'm a large corporation I can't pollute the water and thanks to politicians of all stripes (except libertarians) there is a government agency that deals with that sort of thing. A pretty moderate view.

I don't have the right to discriminate in my place of business. Again, thanks to Democrats and Republicans we have the civil rights act. Not the libertarian running for president at the time though. Civil Rights act = a moderate view.

Using yourself as a source = fail.

Wrong, if you pollute the air and water and it affects other citizens, which obviously it would, government can totally stop you and take your property and give it to the people you harmed, shut you down, put you in jail or whatever needs to be done based on what exactly you did.

But it took government funding studies to discover exactly what pollution does to our public lands. Probably something Libertarians don't think we should be spending money on. Hell, even burning trash in your own backyard, it's a little iffy how Libertarians stand on that.

We're not anarchists, moron. You just keep your empty headed criticism of something you don't even understand. Though I'll grant you if you're restricted to things you do understand you wouldn't be able to post much ...

I didn't call you anarchists. I said that is the closest comparison to Libertarians. It's not intentional on the part of Libertarians it's just the outcome that you get.

Where is the great Utopian society today? Name 3 countries that are libertarians and successful.

 

[kaz]

I'm looking for best possible governance, not perfect government as that is impossible to attain.

Thomas Jefferson put it best: "That government is best that governs least"

He also had slaves and was probably kind of rapey with them. He also only wanted white male land owners to vote. Hard to believe but we've evolved from Jefferson. Great start, we've improved.

Where as Libertarians would want to leave the civil rights movement up to popular whim, let the markets sort it out. Well, they did and we had segregation until the federal government stepped in.

You're making the stupid assumption that civil rights = the civil rights act. Bull crap.

No. the civil rights act was established to protect civil rights

Only in the marketing materials. It was established to expand Federal power, and that's the only thing that it accomplished. The Feds could have gone after States who were forcing segregation with equal protection. It would have been a lot more powerful to use the Constitution than just a federal law, which is all the CRA was. The discrimination was government discrimination, and the Feds used it to control businesses who rarely discriminate on their own. Which was in fact why the local governments had to make laws forcing them to discriminate

Segregation was a GOVERNMENT institution, Holmes. And the Federal government used that to violate the 5th amendment and regulate private businesses who overwhemlingly weren't discriminating while violating the 10th amendment by using power not granted to them and the 9th as well. Jim Crow were government laws. On the other hand, the Montgomery Bus system opposed the rules that drove their best, most reliable customers out of their seats and to the back.

Segregation was realized by the federal government that it deprived citizens of their rights and then went after southern states who were letting the majority override the rights of minorities. Libertarians, nowhere to be found, not one way or another but certainly not a part of any solution.

FYI, libertarians didn't end slavery either and I bet you're not to pleased the way Lincoln went about it either, huh, libertarian?

It depends how you mean went about it. As for ending slavery in the emancipation proclamation I totally think he did the right thing.

As for the civil war though, which wasn't just about slavery, of course I oppose that. Our entire country is based on the consent of the governed, Lincoln destroyed that for half the country at the time. After the Civil war, the Federal government had no legitimate authority under our Constitution

We had plenty of laws to protect blacks. Civil and criminal courts for when injustice was actually done to them. The Civil Rights Act was just another chance for a government power grab

How come they didn't have the same level of access to commerce? Once again, the civil rights act = a moderate view in 2016. To libertarians, it's evil government encroachment. Libertarians are a fringe party based on fantasy. And the more fringy part side of Libertarians is by far the craziest, stupidest bunch of mind fucks one could ever wish to never encounter.

There is no country on the face of this earth that follows any semblance of libertariansim. Not one and the closest comparisons are anarchistic shitholes that lack a strong centralized government.

Libertarian philosophy created the greatest, wealthiest, most powerful country in the history of man. The United States of America. But you're right that you and the rest of the greedy parasites are ending that through tyranny of the majority

No it didn't. Our forefathers were not libertarians. For starters they were weary of the power of corporations, they taxed products and those who didn't pay, paid in other ways.

There was debate about the power of a federal government vs. states, about religious standard and other things that determined what was proper governance. One thing was clear, they wanted the government in charge.

Again for all this crap, we're not anarchists you stupid mother fucker. We don't trust corporations at all. We trust choice, free markets where customers they abuse can fire them. You really are a dim bulb. Your go to on refuting how the founding fathers weren't libertarian was ... wrong .... Their philosophy was almost identical to small government libertarianism of today

 

[HappyJoy]

Oh, OK. The civil rights act did nothing for civil rights. Sure, enjoy your conspiracies and pretending Libertarians are moderates.

FYI, without the civil war slavery wouldn't have ended. You can't have it both ways.

And once again, I didn't call your summer reading course of a political party anarchists. It's just that anarchy is a by product of libertarianism. No government, no control.

 

[kaz]

First of all, I'm libertarian, not Libertarian.

I like that they align more with the "center" than with any particular ideological viewpoints. There are plenty of democrats and republicans who will claim they are more aligned with the center, but they obviously are not.

How are Libertarians necessarily aligned with the center? Give me an example, considering they are a fringe party.

Please, something more in depth than they are 'fiscally responsible and socially liberal'.

Well, as for libertarians, if we get our way, you are still free to make your own choices. Every time you get your way, our choices are removed. You're the extremists.

Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

I get to make my own choices every single day. However, if I'm a large corporation I can't pollute the water and thanks to politicians of all stripes (except libertarians) there is a government agency that deals with that sort of thing. A pretty moderate view.

I don't have the right to discriminate in my place of business. Again, thanks to Democrats and Republicans we have the civil rights act. Not the libertarian running for president at the time though. Civil Rights act = a moderate view.

Using yourself as a source = fail.

Wrong, if you pollute the air and water and it affects other citizens, which obviously it would, government can totally stop you and take your property and give it to the people you harmed, shut you down, put you in jail or whatever needs to be done based on what exactly you did.

But it took government funding studies to discover exactly what pollution does to our public lands. Probably something Libertarians don't think we should be spending money on. Hell, even burning trash in your own backyard, it's a little iffy how Libertarians stand on that.

Pollution is only known because of government studies? That's stupid. People who are effected by pollution can prove it. You really are a kool-aid swilling government worshiper that you think only they can do anything

We're not anarchists, moron. You just keep your empty headed criticism of something you don't even understand. Though I'll grant you if you're restricted to things you do understand you wouldn't be able to post much ...

I didn't call you anarchists. I said that is the closest comparison to Libertarians. It's not intentional on the part of Libertarians it's just the outcome that you get.

I didn't say you "called" me an anarchist. Your arguments are continually based on anarchy. You keep saying things like that we think polluters can pollute and we trust corporations that are just flat out wrong and ignorant

Where is the great Utopian society today? Name 3 countries that are libertarians and successful.

Why do I need to name three when we are number one with a bullet? The United States of America

 

[HappyJoy]

First of all, I'm libertarian, not Libertarian.

How are Libertarians necessarily aligned with the center? Give me an example, considering they are a fringe party.

Please, something more in depth than they are 'fiscally responsible and socially liberal'.

Well, as for libertarians, if we get our way, you are still free to make your own choices. Every time you get your way, our choices are removed. You're the extremists.

Libertarians Are The True Political Moderates

I get to make my own choices every single day. However, if I'm a large corporation I can't pollute the water and thanks to politicians of all stripes (except libertarians) there is a government agency that deals with that sort of thing. A pretty moderate view.

I don't have the right to discriminate in my place of business. Again, thanks to Democrats and Republicans we have the civil rights act. Not the libertarian running for president at the time though. Civil Rights act = a moderate view.

Using yourself as a source = fail.

Wrong, if you pollute the air and water and it affects other citizens, which obviously it would, government can totally stop you and take your property and give it to the people you harmed, shut you down, put you in jail or whatever needs to be done based on what exactly you did.

But it took government funding studies to discover exactly what pollution does to our public lands. Probably something Libertarians don't think we should be spending money on. Hell, even burning trash in your own backyard, it's a little iffy how Libertarians stand on that.

Pollution is only known because of government studies? That's stupid. People who are effected by pollution can prove it. You really are a kool-aid swilling government worshiper that you think only they can do anything

We're not anarchists, moron. You just keep your empty headed criticism of something you don't even understand. Though I'll grant you if you're restricted to things you do understand you wouldn't be able to post much ...

I didn't call you anarchists. I said that is the closest comparison to Libertarians. It's not intentional on the part of Libertarians it's just the outcome that you get.

I didn't say you "called" me an anarchist. Your arguments are continually based on anarchy. You keep saying things like that we think polluters can pollute and we trust corporations that are just flat out wrong and ignorant

Where is the great Utopian society today? Name 3 countries that are libertarians and successful.

Why do I need to name three when we are number one with a bullet? The United States of America

We're not a libertarian country. Are you nuts or what?

There are zero libertarian countries. There is Somalia, what do you disagree with their form of non-government?