Trayvon Martin And The Right To Be Left Alone...

[Gadawg73]

Actually, the moral there is that you should always allow the guy with heat to do whatever the fuck he wants or he shoots you dead and claims self defense.

Parallel situation:

You're walking down the street. I think you look suspicious and follow you despite the police, who I have called, asking me to back off. I move up behind you and attempt to restrain you, catching you off guard.

Because you're resisting, I catch an elbow to my face and get knocked to the pavement, picking up lacerations on my head. You turn, justifiably angry to ask me "What the hell?" at which point I shoot you dead.

Did I kill you in self defense?

So far, that's as likely a scenario as the scenario where Martin lies in wait for Zimmerman and attacks him.

In other words, there's no evidence that contradicts Zimmerman's account that Martin attacked him and he fired in self defense.

Two examples that Zimmerman's story may be contradicted by the facts:

1. The time from Zimmerman acknowledging the dispatchers instruction not to pursue was 18 seconds. If his statements were that he returned to the truck ware began returning to the truck, then the fact that after 2:30-3:30 (minutes:seconds) he was farther away from the truck then he would have been at 18-seconds is a conflict.

2. There is at least one witness to the shooting that says that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shot, if that witness is believe by the Judge (preliminary hearing) and/or by the jury (trial) that testimony would conflict with Zimmerman's story if it was that Martin was on top of him. (The autopsy and forensic ballistic evidence may support or undermine either version.)​

>>>>

"You do not have to do that" is not a police command of any shape, form or fashion. If it was and he ignored they would charge him with failure to obey a police command. They didn't because he never was commanded to do anything. He has no duty under the law to stay in his truck and not pursue.

So what if Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shot? That proves nothing. Same as Martin being on top of Zimmerman as there is a witness to that also.
Who threw the first punch? If that can not be proved then not guilty because the state CAN NOT prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman murdered him.
The presumption of innocence causes the reasonable doubt.
"I saw Zimmerman confront Martin and Martin did not throw the first punch" is what they HAVE TO HAVE to convict.
And the Judge's jury charge will definitely be just that.
But maybe they have that witness. We do not know. But if they do not, not guilty is the appropriate verdict ON THE MURDER CHARGE.
That is why I bet big $$$ there will be a lesser jury charge from the Judge for both manslaughters.
But this is a plea case if I ever saw one. 10 year sentence to do 1-3. Unless they have that witness to testify that Zimmerman definitely threw THE FIRST punch.
The pursuit, the 911 calls, the timeline DO NOT MEAN A DAMN THING.

 

[Gadawg73]

We are talking the martin case.

With the moral of the story being never assault a man packing heat, you end up dead.

Actually, the moral there is that you should always allow the guy with heat to do whatever the fuck he wants or he shoots you dead and claims self defense.

Parallel situation:

You're walking down the street. I think you look suspicious and follow you despite the police, who I have called, asking me to back off. I move up behind you and attempt to restrain you, catching you off guard.

Because you're resisting, I catch an elbow to my face and get knocked to the pavement, picking up lacerations on my head. You turn, justifiably angry to ask me "What the hell?" at which point I shoot you dead.

Did I kill you in self defense?

So far, that's as likely a scenario as the scenario where Martin lies in wait for Zimmerman and attacks him.

"attempt to restrain you"
No comparison whatsoever so bogus claim to start with.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

A defendant never has to have any evidence to support anything.

Actually, that isn't true. If your defense is insanity or self-defense, you do have the burden of proving that you had extenuating circumstances. The prosecution just has to prove that you killed the other person, which in this case they easily will do.

They damn sure have convicted Zimmerman. Please join us with your outrage on that.

Actually, you can search my post history if you'd like. I've already said that I'm angry at the media for clouding up the issue and complicating any shot at a fair trial or unbiased investigation. It actually pisses me off they used Martin's posed high school pictures versus Zimmerman's mug shot.

But I do not think Zimmerman gets a pass here. An unarmed 17 year old is dead. At the very VERY VERY least that merits a pretty through investigation and I can definitely see the case for filing criminal and civil charges.

Zimmerman absolutely did kill Martin. The Prosecution has a slam dunk there. The burden is now on Zimmerman to prove extenuating circumstances.

That is a fact. If he had behaved himself and been in school this never would have happened.

The shooting happened at night. What kind of point are you making here? IF Zimmerman is the monster people claim, Martin could have been a straight "A" student and ended up dead that night. So far there's absolutely no evidence against Martin other than Zimmerman's claim he looked "suspicious".

If I seem to be siding with Martin here, it's because Martin is dead and has no avenue at all to defend himself or present his side of the case. Zimmerman, the shooter, is alive, so I'm reasonably skeptical of what he says. But I'm more than willing to let a fair trial sort this out.

 

[Dr.Traveler]

We are talking the martin case.

With the moral of the story being never assault a man packing heat, you end up dead.

Actually, the moral there is that you should always allow the guy with heat to do whatever the fuck he wants or he shoots you dead and claims self defense.

Parallel situation:

You're walking down the street. I think you look suspicious and follow you despite the police, who I have called, asking me to back off. I move up behind you and attempt to restrain you, catching you off guard.

Because you're resisting, I catch an elbow to my face and get knocked to the pavement, picking up lacerations on my head. You turn, justifiably angry to ask me "What the hell?" at which point I shoot you dead.

Did I kill you in self defense?

So far, that's as likely a scenario as the scenario where Martin lies in wait for Zimmerman and attacks him.

"attempt to restrain you"
No comparison whatsoever so bogus claim to start with.

Says you. There's actually no evidence to contradict that scenario as being EXACTLY what happened that night. So let the investigation sort this out.

 

[SniperFire]

Are you suggesting an anti-hassle law ?

How about an anti cat-burglar law?


School Report: Trayvon Martin Found with 'Jewelry and Burglary Tool'

 

[toomuchtime_]

Actually, the moral there is that you should always allow the guy with heat to do whatever the fuck he wants or he shoots you dead and claims self defense.

Parallel situation:

You're walking down the street. I think you look suspicious and follow you despite the police, who I have called, asking me to back off. I move up behind you and attempt to restrain you, catching you off guard.

Because you're resisting, I catch an elbow to my face and get knocked to the pavement, picking up lacerations on my head. You turn, justifiably angry to ask me "What the hell?" at which point I shoot you dead.

Did I kill you in self defense?

So far, that's as likely a scenario as the scenario where Martin lies in wait for Zimmerman and attacks him.

In other words, there's no evidence that contradicts Zimmerman's account that Martin attacked him and he fired in self defense.

Yep. And so far, none supporting it.

That's why a complete investigation needs to be made with a fair trial. Zimmerman may well be vindicated in a court of law. Or he may end up being found guilty. There's only one way to find out and clear the air.

My issue is a lot of the folks on here complaining that Zimmerman has been "found guilty by the media" are themselves convicting Martin based on absolutely ZERO evidence. The difference here is that Martin is around to defend himself and won't ever get a trial in front of a judge. Zimmerman will.

I disagree. The arrest and trial are political stunts designed to quiet the flood of racial animosity created by Obama, Sharpton and others. Despite extraordinary interest in this story - every event makes headlines around the world - no evidence has been presented that would justify the charge of 2nd degree murder, that being the case there were justifiable legal grounds for arresting Zimmerman on that charge. This was just political grandstanding by the prosecutor, and there is no doubt that before the trial begins manslaughter will be offered to the jury as an option.

Zimmerman may be acquitted, but he will never be vindicated now that the state has branded him a murderer in this high profile case. Regardless of what the jury says, he will continue to be a target of racial hatred for years to come.

 

[Pheonixops]

No you want spies living in your neighborhood - people who peep through windows to make sure you have the correct light bulbs and correct smoke alarms....

Trust me I would have no interest in living in your totalitarian neighborhood...

So what - big deal your mailbox got blown up... Let me guess you pressed charges too?

Of course you fucked up the lives of a bunch of teenagers over a 20 dollar mailbox... The kids probably got charged with felony arson and criminal damage to property while your authoritarian ass gloats about it....

Why not let the teens dump a few sugar cubes into your gas tank for a good laugh? Just let them spray paint their gang name on your house & car or cut the sidewall of your tires. Next you will be telling us that destroying or stealing peoples property (mail box), checks, bills & medication is a patriotic act. Oh wait - you already said that.

Was that Trayvon kid doing any of the above? Did Zimmerman say he saw him do any of the above?

 

[Pheonixops]

There is a newly released photo that shows the back of Zimmerman's head a bit bloodied... It was taken three minutes after the shooting.

So what? He was in a fight that he initiated by getting out of his truck and confronting the kid.

 

[Peach]

No you want spies living in your neighborhood - people who peep through windows to make sure you have the correct light bulbs and correct smoke alarms....

Trust me I would have no interest in living in your totalitarian neighborhood...

So what - big deal your mailbox got blown up... Let me guess you pressed charges too?

Of course you fucked up the lives of a bunch of teenagers over a 20 dollar mailbox... The kids probably got charged with felony arson and criminal damage to property while your authoritarian ass gloats about it....

Why not let the teens dump a few sugar cubes into your gas tank for a good laugh? Just let them spray paint their gang name on your house & car or cut the sidewall of your tires. Next you will be telling us that destroying or stealing peoples property (mail box), checks, bills & medication is a patriotic act. Oh wait - you already said that.

Was that Trayvon kid doing any of the above? Did Zimmerman say he saw him do any of the above?

Some believe Trayvon Martin, a teenager with no history of violence, suddenly decided to "JUMP" Zimmerman, a 28 year old man with a gun, AND a history of violence.........................

 

[Dr.Traveler]

Despite extraordinary interest in this story - every event makes headlines around the world - no evidence has been presented that would justify the charge of 2nd degree murder, that being the case there were justifiable legal grounds for arresting Zimmerman on that charge. This was just political grandstanding by the prosecutor, and there is no doubt that before the trial begins manslaughter will be offered to the jury as an option.

Actually, you may be surprised to find I agree that manslaughter may have been the right charge to bring against Zimmerman here. Unless there's some indication of forethought that hasn't come out yet, I don't think the Murder 1 or Murder 2 is the right charge... again, unless there's something we haven't seen.

As far as the impact on the rest of Zimmerman's life? It's better for him to go to trial now. If he's not charged at all he becomes the face of racism for a generation. Going to trial let's him have the chance to air all the facts and clear his name. After that, it's up to him to rebuild his reputation.

If that sounds callous, again Zimmerman choose to follow that kid even after he'd called the police. He was't trained to handle that situation, made a poor choice, and now an unarmed kid is dead. It's possible Zimmerman acted in self defense, but if I'm unsympathetic, it's because he put himself into that situation.

 

[Foxfyre]

You're a fucking lunatic....

Earth to dumbass - guess what??? kids do dumb shit like put fireworks in mailboxes...

You must have a pathetic life if you're stalking teenagers and following random cars your fucked up brain sees as "suspicious."

You're the type of people I literally hate - you're always looking to bust someone...

How's this - mind your own fucking business...

What others do is none of your concern - especially kids being kids and people driving cars...

When the mailbox is mine that is being damaged, it is my business.

Again you are entitled to your opinion including your opinion of me.

Please do not move into our neighborhood, however. We don't need people who think like you.

No you want spies living in your neighborhood - people who peep through windows to make sure you have the correct light bulbs and correct smoke alarms....

Trust me I would have no interest in living in your totalitarian neighborhood...

So what - big deal your mailbox got blown up... Let me guess you pressed charges too?

Of course you fucked up the lives of a bunch of teenagers over a 20 dollar mailbox... The kids probably got charged with felony arson and criminal damage to property while your authoritarian ass gloats about it....

Really? In your world teaching teenagers that there are consequences for destroying other people's property is a bad thing. Helping young people learn to respect the rights of others and respect the law is a bad thing? Instilling values in them that will help them succeed in life and keep them out of jail and off the unenployment or welfare rolls is really that disgusting to you?

Helping them see things in the correct perspective instead of the irrational, hate filled, looney tunes version of what the world is like to you is a terrible thing in your eyes.

Ah well. You again are entitled to your opinions. And you are entitled to your illusions of what other people think or other people want and your precision knowledge of exactly what happened in spite of the fact that you weren't there.

Rave on friend.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Actually, the moral there is that you should always allow the guy with heat to do whatever the fuck he wants or he shoots you dead and claims self defense.

Parallel situation:

You're walking down the street. I think you look suspicious and follow you despite the police, who I have called, asking me to back off. I move up behind you and attempt to restrain you, catching you off guard.

Because you're resisting, I catch an elbow to my face and get knocked to the pavement, picking up lacerations on my head. You turn, justifiably angry to ask me "What the hell?" at which point I shoot you dead.

Did I kill you in self defense?

So far, that's as likely a scenario as the scenario where Martin lies in wait for Zimmerman and attacks him.

In other words, there's no evidence that contradicts Zimmerman's account that Martin attacked him and he fired in self defense.

Two examples that Zimmerman's story may be contradicted by the facts:

1. The time from Zimmerman acknowledging the dispatchers instruction not to pursue was 18 seconds. If his statements were that he returned to the truck ware began returning to the truck, then the fact that after 2:30-3:30 (minutes:seconds) he was farther away from the truck then he would have been at 18-seconds is a conflict.

2. There is at least one witness to the shooting that says that Zimmerman was on top of Martin at the time of the shot, if that witness is believe by the Judge (preliminary hearing) and/or by the jury (trial) that testimony would conflict with Zimmerman's story if it was that Martin was on top of him. (The autopsy and forensic ballistic evidence may support or undermine either version.)​

>>>>

Do you have a link to the witness who claims Zimmerman on top at the time of the shooting? I haven't been able to find one.

 

[Gadawg73]

A defendant never has to have any evidence to support anything.

Actually, that isn't true. If your defense is insanity or self-defense, you do have the burden of proving that you had extenuating circumstances. The prosecution just has to prove that you killed the other person, which in this case they easily will do.

They damn sure have convicted Zimmerman. Please join us with your outrage on that.

Actually, you can search my post history if you'd like. I've already said that I'm angry at the media for clouding up the issue and complicating any shot at a fair trial or unbiased investigation. It actually pisses me off they used Martin's posed high school pictures versus Zimmerman's mug shot.

But I do not think Zimmerman gets a pass here. An unarmed 17 year old is dead. At the very VERY VERY least that merits a pretty through investigation and I can definitely see the case for filing criminal and civil charges.

Zimmerman absolutely did kill Martin. The Prosecution has a slam dunk there. The burden is now on Zimmerman to prove extenuating circumstances.

That is a fact. If he had behaved himself and been in school this never would have happened.

The shooting happened at night. What kind of point are you making here? IF Zimmerman is the monster people claim, Martin could have been a straight "A" student and ended up dead that night. So far there's absolutely no evidence against Martin other than Zimmerman's claim he looked "suspicious".

If I seem to be siding with Martin here, it's because Martin is dead and has no avenue at all to defend himself or present his side of the case. Zimmerman, the shooter, is alive, so I'm reasonably skeptical of what he says. But I'm more than willing to let a fair trial sort this out.

No, in a murder charge they HAVE TO PROVE you PLANNED to kill him. That YOUR INTENT, "mens rea" is the latin term, was to kill.
Intent to kill is a hard thing to prove if they are on the ground and the gun goes off.
Now your claim on the self defense argument is valid. But we are not there yet. The prosecution will file a motion demanding the defendant state what his affirmative defenses are. The defendant HAS NO DUTY at all to respond to it but if he doesn't then he can not claim self defense. That is where the Stand Your Ground doctrine comes into play and believe me, that is a HUGE hurdle for the prosecution as the district attorney stated in her press conference.
The fact that Martin is dead has no bearing in the LAW.
The law states clearly that an unbiased juror is not to be skeptical OF ANYTHING and to presume the defendant innocent.
I admire your honesty greatly. However, and I mean this respectfully, you would be stricken from the jury pool for cause because of your admitted bias.

 

[Pheonixops]

Why not let the teens dump a few sugar cubes into your gas tank for a good laugh? Just let them spray paint their gang name on your house & car or cut the sidewall of your tires. Next you will be telling us that destroying or stealing peoples property (mail box), checks, bills & medication is a patriotic act. Oh wait - you already said that.

Was that Trayvon kid doing any of the above? Did Zimmerman say he saw him do any of the above?

Some believe Trayvon Martin, a teenager with no history of violence, suddenly decided to "JUMP" Zimmerman, a 28 year old man with a gun, AND a history of violence.........................

Yeah, it's a real joke. I walk my dogs every morning at 5am. If someone was following me and I tried to avoid the idiot, yes I would call the police and report it, but if that asshole got out of his vehicle and came up on me I would be in a "high alert" status and if he made any kind of aggressive move, I would defend myself. I find it pretty "telling" that some "folks" want to place the blame on the kid. I can GUARANTEE you if the races were reversed, those same "folks" would be condemning Zimmerman and defending the kid.

 

[Ariux]

Do you have a link to the witness who claims Zimmerman on top at the time of the shooting? I haven't been able to find one.

Ignore the assertions of the shitbrained racists defending Trayvon. No witnesses claim to have seen Zimmerman on top, before the shooting.

 

[Peach]

Was that Trayvon kid doing any of the above? Did Zimmerman say he saw him do any of the above?

Some believe Trayvon Martin, a teenager with no history of violence, suddenly decided to "JUMP" Zimmerman, a 28 year old man with a gun, AND a history of violence.........................

Yeah, it's a real joke. I walk my dogs every morning at 5am. If someone was following me and I tried to avoid the idiot, yes I would call the police and report it, but if that asshole got out of his vehicle and came up on me I would be in a "high alert" status and if he made any kind of aggressive move, I would defend myself. I find it pretty "telling" that some "folks" want to place the blame on the kid. I can GUARANTEE you if the races were reversed, those same "folks" would be condemning Zimmerman and defending the kid.

It looks like it at this point................................

 

[Pheonixops]

Some believe Trayvon Martin, a teenager with no history of violence, suddenly decided to "JUMP" Zimmerman, a 28 year old man with a gun, AND a history of violence.........................

Yeah, it's a real joke. I walk my dogs every morning at 5am. If someone was following me and I tried to avoid the idiot, yes I would call the police and report it, but if that asshole got out of his vehicle and came up on me I would be in a "high alert" status and if he made any kind of aggressive move, I would defend myself. I find it pretty "telling" that some "folks" want to place the blame on the kid. I can GUARANTEE you if the races were reversed, those same "folks" would be condemning Zimmerman and defending the kid.

It looks like it at this point................................

I don't think I am being unreasonable regarding Zimmerman either. I think that he was entitled to get out on bail that wasn't too much of a high amount of money.

 

[Ariux]

Yeah, it's a real joke. I walk my dogs every morning at 5am. If someone was following me and I tried to avoid the idiot, yes I would call the police and report it, but if that asshole got out of his vehicle and came up on me I would be in a "high alert" status and if he made any kind of aggressive move, I would defend myself. I find it pretty "telling" that some "folks" want to place the blame on the kid. I can GUARANTEE you if the races were reversed, those same "folks" would be condemning Zimmerman and defending the kid.

You're a fucking moron and a racist who assumes everyone else is as big a fucking moron and racist as you are. Zimmerman is a Jew Hispanic, but in spite of being a brownish serpent seed, he shot in self-defense. He's not white, so gets no pass for being white, if someone were to give passes for being white. You just think he's white, so you assume he's guilty. Also, there are cases every day of blacks shooting in self-defense and not being thrown in prison, you ignorant fuck.

 

[Peach]

Yeah, it's a real joke. I walk my dogs every morning at 5am. If someone was following me and I tried to avoid the idiot, yes I would call the police and report it, but if that asshole got out of his vehicle and came up on me I would be in a "high alert" status and if he made any kind of aggressive move, I would defend myself. I find it pretty "telling" that some "folks" want to place the blame on the kid. I can GUARANTEE you if the races were reversed, those same "folks" would be condemning Zimmerman and defending the kid.

It looks like it at this point................................

I don't think I am being unreasonable regarding Zimmerman either. I think that he was entitled to get out on bail that wasn't too much of a high amount of money.

I agree, and he will most likely post bond quickly. He has many, many supporters.

 

[Pheonixops]

Yeah, it's a real joke. I walk my dogs every morning at 5am. If someone was following me and I tried to avoid the idiot, yes I would call the police and report it, but if that asshole got out of his vehicle and came up on me I would be in a "high alert" status and if he made any kind of aggressive move, I would defend myself. I find it pretty "telling" that some "folks" want to place the blame on the kid. I can GUARANTEE you if the races were reversed, those same "folks" would be condemning Zimmerman and defending the kid.

You're a fucking moron and a racist who assumes everyone else is as big a fucking moron and racist as you are. Zimmerman is a Jew Hispanic, but in spite of being a brownish serpent seed, he shot in self-defense. He's not white, so gets no pass for being white, if someone were to give passes for being white. You just think he's white, so you assume he's guilty. Also, there are cases every day of blacks shooting in self-defense and not being thrown in prison, you ignorant fuck.

I'm glad that you are finally coming to that conclusion about yourself. This country and other countries do have some what of a "pigmentocracy" that's why in California prisons you will have the Southern Mexicans aka Surenos ally with the guys who you admire and probably are your role models, the Peckerwoods, woods, nazi lowriders, and AB's. When some ASSHOLE like you calls me a racist, I think it pretty comical, especially after you come out with the sick and insane shit that you come out with like: "in spite of being a brownish serpent seed".
What happened to you? Were you some outcast that the woods wouldn't even back up? Or are you some scared punk that hates "the muds' so you post shit on the internet that you wouldn't have the balls to say to their faces? Thanks for the laugh!