Unsealed Trump Search Warrant - Trump had classified Documents

[Chillicothe]

"Silly stupid Trump troll. And that's all you've got. Dude, you are a sad case indeed."

x2!
A non-serious non-consequential contributor to this venue
Hey, there is a low bar to come onto this chatroom.
So, we get what we get.
Folks with no gravitas.
At least, he doesn't seem to overly rely on the f-bombs, the misogyny and homo-erotic imagery that too many of the MaGAhats here do.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The problem is not language but rather reading text with Macular Degeneration on a small screen. You should try it sometime.

I'm sorry to hear you have that condition. It still does not excuse your continuous lies.

 

[Rigby5]

Don Trump keeping documents that he was requested, and then subpoenaed to return is 'prosecutorial discretion'??

Yes it is biased "prosecutorial discretion" because presidents are supposed to legally retain classified documents, when appropriate.
There is no safe alternative.

 

[Rigby5]

You can't move them to your house. Do you understand the English language, and the words written into law? If so, no where does it say they are to be transported to your residency. This is fourth grade level intelligence. You should be able to understand that.

Wrong.
The law specifically does allow ex-presidents to retain classified documents as necessary.
Presidential libraries are usually set up by the ex-presidents themselves, and not the National Archives.
Nor would classified docs be appropriate for a public presidential library or the public Nation Archives.

 

[Rigby5]

How would anybody know.....even people with a need-to-know.....know about it if he didn't inform people?
Poster 'Struth' seems to be suggesting that if a President, or in this case an ex-president, simply thinks it is de-classified.....then it is.

Which, if we think about it, could put America's interests in jeopardy, could put our spies in jeopardy.
See, it's like this good poster Struth....secrets are secret for a reason.
And to make them 'un-secret' requires a rationale, a discipline, a system, a protocol, so that our secrets do not become revealed recklessly, carelessly, or unknowingly.

I am absolutely mildy convinced you understand the importance of secrets to a country like the United States of America.

And it is equally important to retain information that can prove certain executive actions were warranted by those who would later challenge them as perhaps being illegal. And in fact, since all classified information eventually is no longer useful to remain secret, then is useful for public consumption, like memoirs.
This is totally up to the discretion of the person who created the classified document, not just later presidents.

 

[Rigby5]

I can assure you they can prove whether the documents are classified or not

No one but the person who created the document can do that.

 

[Flopper]

No. It’s not.


True as far as that goes, but beside the point. If it’s something the President is doing in the moment (like reading another person in on the secret) all it takes is for him to approve the declassification.

If he has a document that was classified and declares that it is now declassified, then it is declassified. He is the executive branch. His say so is all it takes.

If Trump were charged with possession of classified documents there would be ample evidence that the documents were in his home and if he used a defense that he declassified them but there was no proof, conviction would rest on whether the jury believed Trump and no matter the verdict it would got to supreme court.

What is being ignored is none of the criminal provisions listed in the search warrant hinge on whether the documents are classified. making declassification irrelevant. I think the DOJ knew that Trump would make some type of claim like this so they listed various sections of the espionage acts. These acts do not mention security classification rather defense secrets, information that would jeopardies the security of the nation. If the DOJ charged possession of classified documents, that would be icing on the cake as long as the jury did not accept Trump's claim. In short, the espionage acts will be easier to prove and less confusing for the jury.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

If Trump were charged with possession of classified documents there would be ample evidence that the documents were in his home and if he used a defense that he declassified them but there was no proof, conviction would rest on whether the jury believed Trump and no matter the verdict it would got to supreme court.

What is being ignored is none of the criminal provisions listed in the search warrant hinge on whether the documents are classified. making declassification irrelevant. I think the DOJ knew that Trump would make some type of claim like this so they listed various sections of the espionage acts. These acts do not mention security classification rather defense secrets, information that would jeopardies the security of the nation. If the DOJ charged possession of classified documents, that would be icing on the cake as long as the jury did not accept Trump's claim. In short, the espionage acts will be easier to prove and less confusing for the jury.

If the FBI conducted an illegal search, there is no evidence. That kills everything else you said.

 

[Chillicothe]

"Yes it is biased "prosecutorial discretion" because presidents are supposed to legally retain classified documents, when appropriate."

"..... is totally up to the discretion of the person who created the classified document..."

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Umm, noper.
The 'discretion' exercised vis-a-vis state secrets and papers is by the current POTUS.
Ex-presidents are 'allowed' access if and only if the current guy acquiesces.

In the current situation, the ex-guy is to read or temporarily possess such ....only.....if Joe Biden agrees.

And that is as it should be, the United States does not want, need, or is allowed under the Constitution, to have two Presidents, co-executives.
Accordingly, the current lawful executive determines the disposition of our state secrets, our state documents.....and....as has clearly been articulated on these recent threads these documents are the property of the United States. And under the sole --- or delegated stewardship --- of today's leader of the United States.

Not yesterday's.

 

[BackAgain]

If Trump were charged with possession of classified documents there would be ample evidence that the documents were in his home

Yeah … which he hasn’t denied. And?

and if he used a defense that he declassified them but there was no proof, they it would up jury as whether believe it or not

Yeah. But the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt would be on … yes! On the government. And there would be evidence. It already exists. Hell, I’ve already posted it.

What is being ignored is none of the criminal provisions listed in the search warrant hinge on whether the documents are classified. making declassification irrelevant.

Well, that certainly makes no sense. The Government has suggested that it had to up the ante and resort to an application for a search warrant because some of the documents were marked “classified.”

I assume you’re arguing on a more literal basis. But still, if there was no urgent need on the basis of how the documents were supposedly “classified” then what was the urgency to resort to a search warrant.

I think the DOJ knew that Trump would make some type of claim like this so they listed various sections of the espionage acts.

Why would they do that if they’re not contending that they were classified?

These acts do not mention security classification rather defense secrets, information that would jeopardies the security of the nation.

Which they of course wouldn’t if they had been declassified.

If the DOJ charged possession of classified documents, that would be icing on the cake as long jury did not accept Trump's claim. In short, the espionage acts will be easier to prove and less confusing for jury.

It’s the Government’s burden. If you want to tell yourself that they can meet that burden, that’s for your own benefit. But I suggest it’s a damn long shot. Even with a DC jury pool.

 

[BackAgain]

If the FBI conducted an illegal search, there is no evidence. That kills everything else you said.

The search was certainly authorized by a judge. But …

If the FBI and DOJ presented false information to the Magistrate, that could invalidate the warrant (and thus the search) and lead to the suppression of any and all evidence seized.

This whole thing is crap. I’m not saying they won’t try to indict 45. They very well might try. They might even obtain an indictment. But that doesn’t mean they are in any dire need of obtaining a conviction. What they seek (I assume here) is just to smear him and tie him up — to hobble his run.

 

[Delldude]

"Prosecutorial discretion"
?????
Don Trump keeping documents that he was requested, and then subpoenaed to return is 'prosecutorial discretion'??
Are you in the right thread, Dude?

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It has been reported Trump complied with the subpoena. Deal with it.

 

[Chillicothe]

It has been reported Trump complied with the subpoena

Well, that is good to know.
However, how confident can we be over the reportage you claim?

Help us understand your claim.

 

[Delldude]

Well, that is good to know.
However, how confident can we be over the reportage you claim?

Help us understand your claim.

Follow the story......

 

[Chillicothe]

"Help us understand your claim."

Follow the story......

Sure. OK. Gotcha. You bet.

But I still don't get it. Whatcha got Dude that shows you can be a reliable man of your word?

 

[Delldude]

"Help us understand your claim."


Sure. OK. Gotcha. You bet.

But I still don't get it. Whatcha got Dude that shows you can be a reliable man of your word?

You can do as I do and use Google and other search engines to your capability.
Not real hard.....if you want to debate issues, bring your argument to the debate fully aware of all the information and don't ask for proof of sources, if you were up to speed on the topic you are attempting to debate, you should have all you need in your back pocket.

 

[Chillicothe]

You can do as I do and use Google and other search engines to your capability.

You bet.
Good advice.
But, truth be told, I already do that when I make a claim.

And therein lies the rub, good poster Dude -- "make a claim".

If one makes a claim it is up to the claimant to bring some game -- to the game..

I am mildly sure you already know that. But, in this case, you possibly have no credible source to back yourself up.

C'mon man!
You can be better than that.

 

[Flopper]

Wrong.
The law specifically does allow ex-presidents to retain classified documents as necessary.
Presidential libraries are usually set up by the ex-presidents themselves, and not the National Archives.
Nor would classified docs be appropriate for a public presidential library or the public Nation Archives.

Yes and No. The president decides on the location of the library and museum and the architecture within the legal requirement of the National Achieve. The president also decides on what is to be included about his earlier life, the campaign, and up to the inauguration. What is include during the his time in office is controlled by the National Archives. The Office of Presidential Libraries, a department of the National Achieves maintains the presidential libraries, not sure about the museums. There is cost sharing between the president the National Archives.
Presidential library system - Wikipedia

 

[Flopper]

If the FBI conducted an illegal search, there is no evidence. That kills everything else you said.

Whether it is illegal or not would depend on pretrial motions. I don't think Trump can do anything to stop the DOJ until after grand jury indictments. The federal grand jury like all grand juries are controlled by the prosecution. I suspect that if the DOJ decides to charge Trump, a grand jury will indict and he will be tried and found guilty unless he pleads guilty. I say that because the DOJ wins 90% or more of their cases which is higher than most state and local prosecutions. Of course the reason they win so many cases is most cases never get out of the investigation stage.

Conviction rate - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Stann]

Unsealed Search Warrant with receipt of items taken shows Trump had:
Top Secret Classified Documents
Confidential Classified Documents
Miscellaneous Secret Documents

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2022/08/read-the-unsealed-trump-search-warrant.html

Those are very good reasons to issue a search warrant.