VA Beach Munc Cntr Shooting: 11 Killed by Emp

[2aguy]

Officials ID Virginia Beach gunman as city employee

What "common sense" gun control laws would have prevented this shooting?
How is it possible for this shooting take place in a gun free zone?

Outlawing large capacity magazines might have cut down on the deaths.

He could have killed just as many people with a pump action shotgun....he could have killed way more people if he had used a rental truck, the muslim in France, using a rental truck killed 86 people and wounded 435......

Trucks are deadlier than pistols....

Let's stick to the point, Guy. A pump action shotgun is slower, and the police would have been able to stop him before as many had been killed, one would hope.

it doesn't matter. A person with a side by side shotgun is every bit as lethal as a guy with a pistol and larger than normal capacity magazines. The difference between the USA and Europe, is we have a very, very large population of third world illegals in our country. They are VIOLENT. Where do they mostly come from? Latin America. Latin America has 8% of the worlds population, but suffer 27% of the worlds murders.

It isn't the gun, it is the culture.

Yes, M-14 Shooter made me see that perhaps it is the larger than normal capacity magazines that make the difference. So ban those instead.

You just refuse to accept the fact that the magazine has nothing to do with how many people are killed.....that actual research shows that the magazine capacity makes no difference.....that the actual factor is the gun free status of the target area....

Again.....so you can understand...

In the gun free zone where the victims had no guns....12 dead.

Cops show up and shoot back....0 dead since he had to start dodging bullets instead of murdering unarmed people.

Magazine capacity has no bearing on the number of people killed....

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
========
In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.

Shooting back saves lives....

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.

Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.

 

[2aguy]

Outlawing large capacity magazines might have cut down on the deaths.

He could have killed just as many people with a pump action shotgun....he could have killed way more people if he had used a rental truck, the muslim in France, using a rental truck killed 86 people and wounded 435......

Trucks are deadlier than pistols....

Let's stick to the point, Guy. A pump action shotgun is slower, and the police would have been able to stop him before as many had been killed, one would hope.

it doesn't matter. A person with a side by side shotgun is every bit as lethal as a guy with a pistol and larger than normal capacity magazines. The difference between the USA and Europe, is we have a very, very large population of third world illegals in our country. They are VIOLENT. Where do they mostly come from? Latin America. Latin America has 8% of the worlds population, but suffer 27% of the worlds murders.

It isn't the gun, it is the culture.

Yes, M-14 Shooter made me see that perhaps it is the larger than normal capacity magazines that make the difference. So ban those instead.

If the large magazines don’t make a difference
Why do mass shooters always choose them over reloading multiple times

Because they have listened to people like you......people who don't know what they are talking about....

And......we have to know how many bullets were actually in the magazines...since the democrat press has lied about "high capacity" magazines, which are more than likely simply regular magazines, hyped to pull on the emotions of uninformed people like you.

 

[2aguy]

He could have killed just as many people with a pump action shotgun....he could have killed way more people if he had used a rental truck, the muslim in France, using a rental truck killed 86 people and wounded 435......

Trucks are deadlier than pistols....

Let's stick to the point, Guy. A pump action shotgun is slower, and the police would have been able to stop him before as many had been killed, one would hope.

it doesn't matter. A person with a side by side shotgun is every bit as lethal as a guy with a pistol and larger than normal capacity magazines. The difference between the USA and Europe, is we have a very, very large population of third world illegals in our country. They are VIOLENT. Where do they mostly come from? Latin America. Latin America has 8% of the worlds population, but suffer 27% of the worlds murders.

It isn't the gun, it is the culture.

Yes, M-14 Shooter made me see that perhaps it is the larger than normal capacity magazines that make the difference. So ban those instead.

If the large magazines don’t make a difference
Why do mass shooters always choose them over reloading multiple times

I'd get a belt fed weapon to use if I was gonna do it...

Good...because a belt fed weapon malfunctions more than any other type of weapon...

 

[cwise76]

Clearly, the answer to this is more guns.

Thank god for guns.

Praise Jeebus.

The answer would certainly be for more guns. Every person in that building should have been armed.

Caught in the crossfire

No AR-15 this time but a 45 with large capacity magazines

Those magazines allowed him to remain in a lengthy gun battle with multiple police officers

wrong.....as you know, the gun free zone, the fact that no one else could shoot back allowed him to kill.....the magazine had nothing to do with it as actual research shows...

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
========
In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.
==========
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----


-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

Ask the cops engaged in a shootout how much those large capacity magazines helped him

When will we learn?

Well, genius.......considering they were shooting back.....?

Before the cops arrived he was shooting unarmed, defenseless people in a gun free zone...he killed 12.

When the cops arrived and started shooting back....he killed 0.

You have no argument. Magazine capacity has nothing to do with the number killed.......gun free zones allowed 12 people to be killed...

Man you really like guns

 

[2aguy]

Police have said the suspect was armed with a .45-caliber handgun. Cervera said Saturday that more weapons were found at the scene and at his home, but declined to elaborate.

Craddock, 40, was a professional engineer who had graduated from Denbigh High School in nearby Newport News in 1996 and joined the Army National Guard, according to a newspaper clip from the time. He received basic military training and advanced individual training at Fort Sill, Oklahoma. He later graduated from Old Dominion University with a bachelor’s degree in civil engineering. Before going to work in Virginia Beach, he worked for a private engineering firm in Hampton Roads.

Craddock appears to have had no felony record, which would have made him eligible to purchase firearms

Officials ID Virginia Beach gunman as city employee

What "common sense" gun control laws would have prevented this shooting?
How is it possible for this shooting take place in a gun free zone?

Outlawing large capacity magazines might have cut down on the deaths.

Magazines have no bearing on the number killed.....you have been shown this over and over, that you refuse to understand it shows you don't care about facts, the truth or reality, you just want to use emotions to get your way....

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN

I.

Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
========
In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.
==========
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----


-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

-----

A 1997 National Institute of Justice publication[22] demonstrated that it is virtually impossible to reconcile Kleck's estimates and Kleck-like estimates to the amount of crime that actually occurs in the United States.
Gary Kleck - Wikipedia

Your link doesn't work.

You are mixing up the critique of the wrong studies.....the critique you quoted is about his 1997 study.....the magazine study was a few years ago.......please try harder.

Also, the critics of Klecks 1996 research were wrong......considering the Centers for Disease Control did research to disprove Kleck, and came up with 1.1 million times a year, and the Department of Justice also did research to disprove Kleck and came up with 1.5 million times a year for defensive gun use...

If you are going to use hacks to attack Kleck's work, try to use the hack criticising the actual research I am using at the time...

 

[2aguy]

Considering they haven't mentioned his political party yet.......good chance he is a democrat and obama/bernie bro.........that they haven't mentioned an AR-15 yet....likely he didn't use one...

But, we can wait to see what we find out....

Actually, what we've found out so far is that he's a veteran and was a loyal employee of this place for 16 years... who just snapped one day.

Maybe we'll find out he had a boss who was fucking with him... or maybe he was crazy for years.

Key thing. He was able to legally get guns and kill a lot of people. That's what's messed up.

No.....600 million guns in private hands today......one man walked into that place and broke the law.....he was messed up, not the other several million gun owners......

And considering that as more Americans own and carry guns....more than ever before, and our gun murder rate has gone down, not up.....you have no valid point....

Also....none of your gun laws that you asshats wanted stopped him.......your gun free zone law allowed him access to unarmed victims.....

He stopped murdering people when people with guns started shooting back at him.......showing you don't know what you are talking about...

Over the last 26 years, we went from 200 million guns in private hands in the 1990s and 4.7 million people carrying guns for self defense in 1997...to close to 400-600 million guns in private hands and over 17.25 million people carrying guns for self defense in 2018...guess what happened...


-- gun murder down 49%

--gun crime down 75%

--violent crime down 72%

Gun Homicide Rate Down 49% Since 1993 Peak; Public Unaware

Compared with 1993, the peak of U.S. gun homicides, the firearm homicide rate was 49% lower in 2010, and there were fewer deaths, even though the nation’s population grew. The victimization rate for other violent crimes with a firearm—assaults, robberies and sex crimes—was 75% lower in 2011 than in 1993. Violent non-fatal crime victimization overall (with or without a firearm) also is down markedly (72%) over two decades.

I don't know where these numbers come from, but if we are so much safer than we were in '93, WHY are mass shootings becoming a monthly if not weekly incident in our country?
Do you really think that if everyone working in that building yesterday was armed, they would have had the wherewithal to stop him? Dig the pistol out of your bag or briefcase or desk drawer, hole up behind something sturdy to shield you and try to peek out and take aim. All of this with him shooting and people dropping all around you, others screaming and running. Only a trained professional cop or soldier would be able to do that and it would be dangerous as hell. Most people would duck and hide, hope for the best and worry about their own ass, not being Clark Kent.

They are not monthly or weekly.....there were 12 in all of 2018.....you do realize there are 52 weeks in a year...right?

And yes.....as we know from actual research, armed citizens who have their legal guns with them during mass public shootings are 94% effective at stopping mass shooters and/or reducing the number killed and injured....

Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events [FBI]

Of all the active shooter events there were 33 at which an armed citizen was present. Of those, Armed Citizens were successful at stopping the Active shooter 75.8% of the time (25 incidents) and were successful in reducing the loss of life in an additional 18.2% (6) of incidents. In only 2 of the 33 incidents (6.1%) was the Armed Citizen(s) not helpful in any way in stopping the active shooter or reducing the loss of life.

Thus the headline of our report that Armed Citizens Are Successful 94% Of The Time At Active Shooter Events.


In the 2 incidents at which the armed citizen “failed” to stop or slow the active shooter, one is the previously mentioned incident with hunters. The other is an incident in which the CCWer was shot in the back in a Las Vegas Walmart when he failed to identify that there were 2 Active Shooters involved in the attack. He neglected to identify the one that shot him in the back while he was trying to ambush the other perpetrator.

We also decided to look at the breakdown of events that took place in gun free zones and the relative death toll from events in gun free zones vs non-gun-free zones.

Of the 283 incidents in our data pool, we were unable to identify if the event took place in a gun-free zone in a large number (41%) of the events. Most of the events took place at a business, church, home, or other places at which as a rule of law it is not a gun free zone but potentially could have been declared one by the property owner. Without any information in the FBI study or any indication one way or the other from the news reports, we have indicated that event with a question mark.

If you look at all of the Active Shooter events (pie chart on the top) you see that for those which we have the information, almost twice as many took place in gun free zones than not; but realistically the vast majority of those for which we have no information (indicated as ?) are probably NOT gun free zones.

If you isolate just the events at which 8 or more people were killed the data paints a different picture (pie chart on the bottom). In these incidents, 77.8% took place in a gun-free zone suggesting that gun free zones lead to a higher death rate vs active shooter events in general

=====

One of the final metrics we thought was important to consider is the potential tendency for armed citizens to injure or kill innocent people in their attempt to “save the day.” A common point in political discussions is to point out the lack of training of most armed citizens and the decrease in safety inherent in their presence during violent encounters.

As you can see below, however, at the 33 incidents at which Armed Citizens were present, there were zero situations at which the Armed Citizen injured or killed an innocent person. It never happened.

 

[2aguy]

Not blaming them.....blaming the lack of them...prisons are filled with fatherless men and women....

Do you know something about this guy's background? Or are you just making an assumption because he was black.

guy, one more time.

A guy with a shitty home life who can't get a gun can shoot just as many people as someone living a "Leave it to Beaver" household who can't get a gun.

Exactly zero.

Since he murdered innocent people as what may be his first criminal act, some things can be looked at and then ignored if they prove to be false........

Likely?

He had mental health issues...

Likely, he had impulse control issues, which may be the cause that he was fired for from the lifetime job

Likely, he came from a broken or dysfunctional home...with little to no help from his father.....his mental health issues will mean a lot more if they are coupled with a bad or missing father.

I can wait to see if any of these things mattered in this shooting....

We have all of those things in Europe but we dont have mass shootings. What we dont have is easy access to killing machines.Its not complicated.

You mean except for these.....which weren't stopped by your gun laws, but only through dumb luck....

Teenage boys planned to 'kill everyone' at Yorkshire school in Columbine-style gun and bomb massacre, court hears

Two teenage boys planned to “kill everyone” at their Yorkshireschool in a Columbine-style massacre using bombs and guns, a court has heard.

---------------------------



.4/6/18

Doctor found with stash of guns and NHS hitlist jailed

A former doctor has been sentenced to 12 years in prison for stockpiling guns with the intent to endanger life.

Martin Watt was found with three submachine guns, two pistols and 1,500 live cartridges at a property in Cumbernauld, Scotland, last year.

The 62-year-old had lost his job at Monklands hospital in North Lanarkshire in 2012 after disciplinary hearings. His marriage broke down around the same time, the high court in Glasgow was told.

Watt had compiled a list of names and addresses of some colleagues involved in the disciplinary process, which the judge, Valerie Stacey, said Watt had referred to as an assassination list.
=======



Here is the updat, the original is below..

Yep.....this 19 year old got bombs and a glock 19 and 94 rounds of 9mm ammo on the dark web in Britain in order to murder people at the University he used to attend..........

I guess their gun control laws stopped him...right? Or was it pure, dumb luck.....?


-------------

British teen sentenced to life for planned school attack

Despite some of the tightest gun control on the planet, a British man was able to acquire a handgun, extended mags and explosives as part of a plot to attack his former school.

Liam Lyburd, 19, of Newcastle upon Tyne, was sentenced to life imprisonment this week on eight charges of possessing weapons with intent to endanger life.

As noted by the BBC, Lyburd gathered a cache that included a Glock 19, three 33-round magazines, 94 hollow-point bullets, CS gas, five pipe bombs and two other improvised explosive devices despite the country’s long history of civilian arms control.

According to court documents, Lyburd planned to use the weapons in an attack on Newcastle College, from which he had been expelled two years prior for poor attendance. He was arrested last November after two Northumbria Police constables visited him at his home on a tip from an individual who encountered threats and disturbing pictures posted by Lyburd online.

Despite a defense that portrayed the reclusive man as living in a fantasy world, Lyburd was found guilty in July.

The internet-savvy teen obtained the Glock and other items through Evolution Marketplace, a successor to the Silk Road, a long-time “dark web” site in which users could buy and sell everything from illegal narcotics to munitions using Bitcoin cryptocurrency.

In court, Lyburd testified that buying the Glock was so easy it was “like buying a bar of chocolate.”

He obtained funds for his purchases through a complex extortion scheme in which he used online malware to infect computers, which he in turn held for ransom from their owners.

====Teenage boy 'took shotgun to school after being bullied for being fat'


15-year-old boy arrested for taking shotgun and ammunition into school did it because he was being bullied for being too fat, fellow pupils said.

=======




'Gunman' walks into Liverpool nursery school as children were playing inside

Police have sealed off a children's nursery in Liverpool amid reports a gunman walked into the building while youngsters were inside.

Officers were called to Childs Play Nursery in Wavertree, Merseyside, at around 8am this morning.

The man, who is believed to have been carrying what looked like a firearm, walked into the nursery and approached another man.

He then left with a second man on the back of a motorbike.







Children among 10 people in hospital after mass shooting in Manchester



Ten people, including two children, were taken to hospital after a shooting at a street party in the Moss Side area of Manchester.


Armed police officers rushed to the scene on a residential street at 2.30am on Sunday, where a party was being held following a Caribbean Carnival at a nearby park.

 

[2aguy]

Not blaming them.....blaming the lack of them...prisons are filled with fatherless men and women....

Do you know something about this guy's background? Or are you just making an assumption because he was black.

guy, one more time.

A guy with a shitty home life who can't get a gun can shoot just as many people as someone living a "Leave it to Beaver" household who can't get a gun.

Exactly zero.

Since he murdered innocent people as what may be his first criminal act, some things can be looked at and then ignored if they prove to be false........

Likely?

He had mental health issues...

Likely, he had impulse control issues, which may be the cause that he was fired for from the lifetime job

Likely, he came from a broken or dysfunctional home...with little to no help from his father.....his mental health issues will mean a lot more if they are coupled with a bad or missing father.

I can wait to see if any of these things mattered in this shooting....

We have all of those things in Europe but we dont have mass shootings. What we dont have is easy access to killing machines.Its not complicated.

The British police have stated that they can't stop the increasing......let me repeat......the increasing, flow of illegal guns into Britain......there are illegal guns flooding Britain, so the only thing stopping mass public shootings? No one has decided to do one to completion yet......but they are ramping up as your social welfare system has finally reached the point where your young males want fame and notoriety through murder....

 

[2aguy]

Clearly, the answer to this is more guns.

Thank god for guns.

Praise Jeebus.

The answer would certainly be for more guns. Every person in that building should have been armed.

Caught in the crossfire

No AR-15 this time but a 45 with large capacity magazines

Those magazines allowed him to remain in a lengthy gun battle with multiple police officers

wrong.....as you know, the gun free zone, the fact that no one else could shoot back allowed him to kill.....the magazine had nothing to do with it as actual research shows...

SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals

Large-Capacity Magazines and the Casualty Counts in Mass Shootings: The Plausibility of Linkages by Gary Kleck :: SSRN



Do bans on large-capacity magazines (LCMs) for semiautomatic firearms have significant potential for reducing the number of deaths and injuries in mass shootings?
========
In sum, in nearly all LCM-involved mass shootings, the time it takes to reload a detachable magazine is no greater than the average time between shots that the shooter takes anyway when not reloading.

Consequently, there is no affirmative evidence that reloading detachable magazines slows mass shooters’ rates of fire, and thus no affirmative evidence that the number of victims who could escape the killers due to additional pauses in the shooting is increased by the shooter’s need to change magazines.
==========
The most common rationale for an effect of LCM use is that they allow mass killers to fire many rounds without reloading.
LCMs are used is less than 1/3 of 1% of mass shootings.
News accounts of 23 shootings in which more than six people were killed or wounded and LCMs were used, occurring in the U.S. in 1994-2013, were examined.
There was only one incident in which the shooter may have been stopped by bystander intervention when he tried to reload.
In all of these 23 incidents the shooter possessed either multiple guns or multiple magazines, meaning that the shooter, even if denied LCMs, could have continued firing without significant interruption by either switching loaded guns or by changing smaller loaded magazines with only a 2-4 second delay for each magazine change.
Finally, the data indicate that mass shooters maintain slow enough rates of fire such that the time needed to reload would not increase the time between shots and thus the time available for prospective victims to escape.

--------

We did not employ the oft-used definition of “mass murder” as a homicide in which four or more victims were killed, because most of these involve just four to six victims (Duwe 2007), which could therefore have involved as few as six rounds fired, a number that shooters using even ordinary revolvers are capable of firing without reloading.

LCMs obviously cannot help shooters who fire no more rounds than could be fired without LCMs, so the inclusion of “nonaffectable” cases with only four to six victims would dilute the sample, reducing the percent of sample incidents in which an LCM might have affected the number of casualties.

Further, had we studied only homicides with four or more dead victims, drawn from the FBI’s Supplementary Homicide Reports, we would have missed cases in which huge numbers of people were shot, and huge numbers of rounds were fired, but three or fewer of the victims died.


For example, in one widely publicized shooting carried out in Los Angeles on February 28, 1997, two bank robbers shot a total of 18 people - surely a mass shooting by any reasonable standard (Table 1).

Yet, because none of the people they shot died, this incident would not qualify as a mass murder (or even murder of any kind).

Exclusion of such incidents would bias the sample against the proposition that LCM use increases the number of victims by excluding incidents with large numbers of victims. We also excluded shootings in which more than six persons were shot over the entire course of the incident but shootings occurred in multiple locations with no more than six people shot in any one of the locations, and substantial periods of time intervened between episodes of shooting. An example is the series of killings committed by Rodrick Dantzler on July 7, 2011.

Once eligible incidents were identified, we searched through news accounts for details related to whether the use of LCMs could have influenced the casualty counts.

Specifically, we searched for

(1) the number of magazines in the shooter’s immediate possession,

(2) the capacity of the largest magazine,

(3) the number of guns in the shooter’s immediate possession during the incident,

(4) the types of guns possessed,

(5) whether the shooter reloaded during the incident,

(6) the number of rounds fired,

(7) the duration of the shooting from the first shot fired to the last, and (8) whether anyone intervened to stop the shooter.

Findings How Many Mass Shootings were Committed Using LCMs?

We identified 23 total incidents in which more than six people were shot at a single time and place in the U.S. from 1994 through 2013 and that were known to involve use of any magazines with capacities over ten rounds.


Table 1 summarizes key details of the LCMinvolved mass shootings relevant to the issues addressed in this paper.

(Table 1 about here) What fraction of all mass shootings involve LCMs?

There is no comprehensive listing of all mass shootings available for the entire 1994-2013 period, but the most extensive one currently available is at the Shootingtracker.com website, which only began its coverage in 2013.

-----


-----
The offenders in LCM-involved mass shootings were also known to have reloaded during 14 of the 23 (61%) incidents with magazine holding over 10 rounds.

The shooters were known to have not reloaded in another two of these 20 incidents and it could not be determined if they reloaded in the remaining seven incidents.

Thus, even if the shooters had been denied LCMs, we know that most of them definitely would have been able to reload smaller detachable magazines without interference from bystanders since they in fact did change magazines.

The fact that this percentage is less than 100% should not, however, be interpreted to mean that the shooters were unable to reload in the other nine incidents.

It is possible that the shooters could also have reloaded in many of these nine shootings, but chose not to do so, or did not need to do so in order to fire all the rounds they wanted to fire. This is consistent with the fact that there has been at most only one mass shootings in twenty years in which reloading a semiautomatic firearm might have been blocked by bystanders intervening and thereby stopping the shooter from doing all the shooting he wanted to do. All we know is that in two incidents the shooter did not reload, and news accounts of seven other incidents did not mention whether the offender reloaded.

----

For example, a story in the Hartford Courant about the Sandy Hook elementary school killings in 2012 was headlined “Shooter Paused, and Six Escaped,” the text asserting that as many as six children may have survived because the shooter paused to reload (December 23, 2012). ''

The author of the story, however, went on to concede that this was just a speculation by an unnamed source, and that it was also possible that some children simply escaped when the killer was shooting other children.

There was no reliable evidence that the pauses were due to the shooter reloading, rather than his guns jamming or the shooter simply choosing to pause his shooting while his gun was still loaded.

The plausibility of the “victims escape” rationale depends on the average rates of fire that shooters in mass shootings typically maintain.

If they fire very fast, the 2-4 seconds it takes to change box-type detachable magazines could produce a slowing of the rate of fire that the shooters otherwise would have maintained without the magazine changes, increasing the average time between rounds fired and potentially allowing more victims to escape during the betweenshot intervals.

On the other hand, if mass shooters fire their guns with the average interval between shots lasting more than 2-4 seconds, the pauses due to additional magazine changes would be no longer than the pauses the shooter typically took between shots even when not reloading.

In that case, there would be no more opportunity for potential victims to escape than there would have been without the additional magazine changes

Ask the cops engaged in a shootout how much those large capacity magazines helped him

When will we learn?

Well, genius.......considering they were shooting back.....?

Before the cops arrived he was shooting unarmed, defenseless people in a gun free zone...he killed 12.

When the cops arrived and started shooting back....he killed 0.

You have no argument. Magazine capacity has nothing to do with the number killed.......gun free zones allowed 12 people to be killed...

Man you really like guns

Man you really like guns

Actually, you don't read my posts carefully enough.....I actually think guns are boring.....what I actually have a passion for is the Bill of Rights, and self defense....guns just happen to be the most effective tool to save lives from violent criminals, and asshats like the anti-gunners above, want women to be raped, rather than have the rape stopped by allowing those women to carry and own guns...dittos robberies and murders...

 

[2aguy]

This story is officially over....the New York Times is reporting that the weapons used were to .45 caliber pistols.......

The shooter was Black.

He did not use an AR-15.

Doesn't seem like he was a Trump supporter....


Never mind....

 

[2aguy]

The anti-gun pointless gun laws would have failed...again.......he used two .45 caliber guns...which he reloaded repeatedly during the attack.......

He bought them after going through background checks...which means he would pass a universal background check for a private sale.....

They were pistols...not an AR-15, so a stupid "Assault Rifle" ban would not have stopped the attack.....

He bought one gun in 2016, and the other gun in 2018......so stupid waiting periods would not have done anything to stop the attack.....

He displayed no mental issues until recently, so stupid Red Flag Laws would not have kept this from happening....


Anti-gunners......can't get dumber than an anti-gunner....

 

[westwall]

The anti-gun pointless gun laws would have failed...again.......he used two .45 caliber guns...which he reloaded repeatedly during the attack.......

He bought them after going through background checks...which means he would pass a universal background check for a private sale.....

They were pistols...not an AR-15, so a stupid "Assault Rifle" ban would not have stopped the attack.....

He bought one gun in 2016, and the other gun in 2018......so stupid waiting periods would not have done anything to stop the attack.....

He displayed no mental issues until recently, so stupid Red Flag Laws would not have kept this from happening....


Anti-gunners......can't get dumber than an anti-gunner....

Gun control laws have zero to do with preventing crime, but EVERYTHING to do with concentrating power in the hands of the very billionaires who fund the anti gun efforts.

They realize you can't truly be the slave they want, when you can defend yourself.

 

[skookerasbil]

To think any kind of law/ ban would prevent this kind of thing.. Folks who have the ability to do proper thought processing get it. Gun grabbers are not dumb or stupid however do have significant issues with the thought processing. More on this below.....

Here in New York many people do not get a handgun license because once you have one law enforcement does not need a warrant to enter your home for whatever the hell they want. Long guns are a weapon of choice. But if I wanted a handgun I could drive 20 minutes 4 towns over and purchase one in about 30 minutes for 500 bucks. Fucking duh.... anybody with half a brain and a few bucks in their pocket could do it.

The plain fact is gun grabbers are delusional.... the intentions are good I suppose, but when you connect their ideas to results it's like a stone falling in water every time.

Many gun grabbers are not at all stupid and actually many are quite bright. The problem is in the thought processing. Intelligence and thought processing are wholly different.... most people don't understand this.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

From current police conference:

An employee entered the building and killed 11, 6 others injured, conditions unknown.
Shooter dead also.

Shooter at VB Municipal Center in custody; Multiple people shot, including officer | WAVY.com

HoHum. Another mass shooting. Just move on, it does not matter. You get to keep your guns.

Actually, if one of them had one, then maybe they could have protected themselves...

Actually not.

The shooter had a protracted gun battle with several police officers – the notion is naïve nonsense.

And the notion that an ‘armed citizen’ would have ‘joined in’ with police or ‘helped’ the police battle the gunman is likewise naïve nonsense.

Citizens have the right to carry guns pursuant to lawful self-defense – not act in the capacity of ‘law enforcement,’ or to ‘combat crime,’ or to ‘take out’ a gunman during a mass-shooting incident.

 

[rightwinger]

The anti-gun pointless gun laws would have failed...again.......he used two .45 caliber guns...which he reloaded repeatedly during the attack.......

He bought them after going through background checks...which means he would pass a universal background check for a private sale.....

They were pistols...not an AR-15, so a stupid "Assault Rifle" ban would not have stopped the attack.....

He bought one gun in 2016, and the other gun in 2018......so stupid waiting periods would not have done anything to stop the attack.....

He displayed no mental issues until recently, so stupid Red Flag Laws would not have kept this from happening....


Anti-gunners......can't get dumber than an anti-gunner....

Gun control laws have zero to do with preventing crime, but EVERYTHING to do with concentrating power in the hands of the very billionaires who fund the anti gun efforts.

They realize you can't truly be the slave they want, when you can defend yourself.

Most of the world functions perfectly well with gun control

The US has five times the murder rate of those countries that restrict firearms

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Another good guy with a gun....until he's not.

Good guys with guns far outnumber bad guys. Assholes, like you, demand the good guys be disarmed.

YOU, are the problem little asshat.

I am pro-2nd Amendment....you fail....again.

No, you are not. You are anti 2nd Amendment. The only failure here, is you.

Wrong.

To support the Second Amendment is to support its case law, as determined by the courts and ultimately the Supreme Court.

Indeed, to oppose Second Amendment jurisprudence – as you and most others on right do – is to be anti-Second Amendment.

 

[rightwinger]

To think any kind of law/ ban would prevent this kind of thing.. Folks who have the ability to do proper thought processing get it. Gun grabbers are not dumb or stupid however do have significant issues with the thought processing. More on this below.....

Here in New York many people do not get a handgun license because once you have one law enforcement does not need a warrant to enter your home for whatever the hell they want. Long guns are a weapon of choice. But if I wanted a handgun I could drive 20 minutes 4 towns over and purchase one in about 30 minutes for 500 bucks. Fucking duh.... anybody with half a brain and a few bucks in their pocket could do it.

The plain fact is gun grabbers are delusional.... the intentions are good I suppose, but when you connect their ideas to results it's like a stone falling in water every time.

Many gun grabbers are not at all stupid and actually many are quite bright. The problem is in the thought processing. Intelligence and thought processing are wholly different.... most people don't understand this.

New York is doing quite well with gun control
It’s murder rate is way down and NYC is one of the safest major cities

 

[rightwinger]

Thanks Gun Control

 

[westwall]

Another good guy with a gun....until he's not.

Good guys with guns far outnumber bad guys. Assholes, like you, demand the good guys be disarmed.

YOU, are the problem little asshat.

I am pro-2nd Amendment....you fail....again.

No, you are not. You are anti 2nd Amendment. The only failure here, is you.

Wrong.

To support the Second Amendment is to support its case law, as determined by the courts and ultimately the Supreme Court.

Indeed, to oppose Second Amendment jurisprudence – as you and most others on right do – is to be anti-Second Amendment.

Bullshit. What does "shall NOT be infringed" mean? Political hacks make case law all of the time. And it is usually shit, geared to benefit whichever wealthy patron has bought the judge.

 

[westwall]

Thanks Gun Control

Actually, that is Stop and Frisk and a GOP mayor who was fed up with the progressive bullshit. That drop in crime is thanks to locking up violent offenders. The very same scumbags, that assholes, like you, seek to keep on the streets.

Thanks, moron.