What Happened to Church?

[Cecilie1200]

So back to my actual topic . . .

I would also like to address the fact that, not only was the "praise and worship team" basically an ad hoc rock band performing for an audience, every single one of them was on the platform in clothes that would be too casual and sloppy for me to get away with wearing to work. And the assistant pastor delivering the message (the pastor was apparently in the hospital for knee surgery) was wearing ratty jeans, sneakers, a t-shirt, and a denim jacket. What is that?

Look, I get that God loves us no matter what, and showing up is far more important to Him than what we're wearing. It's not about whether or not God can or will accept us in casual clothes. It's about respect and reverence. CS Lewis pointed out that, because humans are animals, the dispositions of our bodies both affect and reflect the state of our minds and spirits. We kneel to pray not because it matters particularly to God, but because it reflects a willingness for submission and supplication, and it puts us mentally and spiritually into an attitude of humility and obedience to God.

Likewise, attending church - or leading a church! - in clothes that would be perfectly appropriate for cleaning out the garage, in my mind, reflects the belief that worshipping God requires no more effort and preparation than hanging out with buddies at the local sports bar, and less effort and respect than we would routinely give to - for example - our jobs and our bosses.

Again, I'm probably old-fashioned, but I was raised to believe that you make at least as much effort to give God your best as you would make on - for another example - a first date with someone you really like and want to impress.

If you're attending church, you're at least open to the idea that this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe. If you're attending a Christian church, you're probably at least considering the notion that Jesus, the Son of God, allowed Himself to be tortured to death for your sake. And it's too much to ask of you in return that you find a pair of pants that doesn't have holes in it?

 

[OldLady]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

All churches are not Catholic.

Just be glad they don't use the whip to encourage..

You have some seriously odd notions about what churches are, or even were. Maybe try attending one sometime, rather than believing propaganda.

And maybe try not rushing to every thread on religion to try to derail it so that no one can ever discuss it seriously.

I never heard of a church with a fog machine, but then, I've never attended a church with a video chorus, either. I would suggest you try another church in town, because I really think there must be one more suitable out there somewhere.
P.S. What is A.G.?

 

[Taz]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

 

[Taz]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

All churches are not Catholic.

Just be glad they don't use the whip to encourage..

You have some seriously odd notions about what churches are, or even were. Maybe try attending one sometime, rather than believing propaganda.

And maybe try not rushing to every thread on religion to try to derail it so that no one can ever discuss it seriously.

I never heard of a church with a fog machine, but then, I've never attended a church with a video chorus, either. I would suggest you try another church in town, because I really think there must be one more suitable out there somewhere.
P.S. What is A.G.?

It's the Church of Ozzy. Ceci arrives on her broom.

 

[OldLady]

So back to my actual topic . . .

I would also like to address the fact that, not only was the "praise and worship team" basically an ad hoc rock band performing for an audience, every single one of them was on the platform in clothes that would be too casual and sloppy for me to get away with wearing to work. And the assistant pastor delivering the message (the pastor was apparently in the hospital for knee surgery) was wearing ratty jeans, sneakers, a t-shirt, and a denim jacket. What is that?

Look, I get that God loves us no matter what, and showing up is far more important to Him than what we're wearing. It's not about whether or not God can or will accept us in casual clothes. It's about respect and reverence. CS Lewis pointed out that, because humans are animals, the dispositions of our bodies both affect and reflect the state of our minds and spirits. We kneel to pray not because it matters particularly to God, but because it reflects a willingness for submission and supplication, and it puts us mentally and spiritually into an attitude of humility and obedience to God.

Likewise, attending church - or leading a church! - in clothes that would be perfectly appropriate for cleaning out the garage, in my mind, reflects the belief that worshipping God requires no more effort and preparation than hanging out with buddies at the local sports bar, and less effort and respect than we would routinely give to - for example - our jobs and our bosses.

Again, I'm probably old-fashioned, but I was raised to believe that you make at least as much effort to give God your best as you would make on - for another example - a first date with someone you really like and want to impress.

If you're attending church, you're at least open to the idea that this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe. If you're attending a Christian church, you're probably at least considering the notion that Jesus, the Son of God, allowed Himself to be tortured to death for your sake. And it's too much to ask of you in return that you find a pair of pants that doesn't have holes in it?

I remember a weeks-long discussion in the kitchens of our town about a guy who showed up to church in his clamming boots one Sunday.
The tide waits for no man; he could go home and shower/change, or he could make the service.
Most decided it was okay, at least he came, but it had to be seriously thought on for some time.

 

[OldLady]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

 

[hadit]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Uhhhh, that's kind of the point. Everyone hurts, and everyone is a loser in their own way. Our church has three rules:

1. No perfect people allowed.
2. No one stands alone.
2. Everyone's story matters.

I guess that leaves you out.

Ya but not only are you losers in life, you then get together to believe in a fantasy world. How does mass delusion help?

It doesn't. This is not mass delusion. You believe it to be because you have not experienced the reality of relationship with the living God.

 

[hadit]

So back to my actual topic . . .

I would also like to address the fact that, not only was the "praise and worship team" basically an ad hoc rock band performing for an audience, every single one of them was on the platform in clothes that would be too casual and sloppy for me to get away with wearing to work. And the assistant pastor delivering the message (the pastor was apparently in the hospital for knee surgery) was wearing ratty jeans, sneakers, a t-shirt, and a denim jacket. What is that?

Look, I get that God loves us no matter what, and showing up is far more important to Him than what we're wearing. It's not about whether or not God can or will accept us in casual clothes. It's about respect and reverence. CS Lewis pointed out that, because humans are animals, the dispositions of our bodies both affect and reflect the state of our minds and spirits. We kneel to pray not because it matters particularly to God, but because it reflects a willingness for submission and supplication, and it puts us mentally and spiritually into an attitude of humility and obedience to God.

Likewise, attending church - or leading a church! - in clothes that would be perfectly appropriate for cleaning out the garage, in my mind, reflects the belief that worshipping God requires no more effort and preparation than hanging out with buddies at the local sports bar, and less effort and respect than we would routinely give to - for example - our jobs and our bosses.

Again, I'm probably old-fashioned, but I was raised to believe that you make at least as much effort to give God your best as you would make on - for another example - a first date with someone you really like and want to impress.

If you're attending church, you're at least open to the idea that this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe. If you're attending a Christian church, you're probably at least considering the notion that Jesus, the Son of God, allowed Himself to be tortured to death for your sake. And it's too much to ask of you in return that you find a pair of pants that doesn't have holes in it?

I remember a weeks-long discussion in the kitchens of our town about a guy who showed up to church in his clamming boots one Sunday.
The tide waits for no man; he could go home and shower/change, or he could make the service.
Most decided it was okay, at least he came, but it had to be seriously thought on for some time.

We try to strike a balance between welcoming everyone without making them feel unwanted and reverently bringing your best to God.

 

[hadit]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

Exactly. None of that. An alter in this context is a place at the front of the church where congregants can go to pray. When others see that, they can go to pray with them. In our church, there is simply a stage in which the pastor stands. He can use a lectern if he wants, or he can just walk around with his iPad. The deacons are not set apart in any special way. They're just part of the congregation. Communion is served to the congregation in their seats.

It's just a different way of doing things.

 

[hadit]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

 

[hadit]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

I know what you mean about the music. As a child, we didn't even have musical instruments or a choir in the church. You were taught from little up how to read music and sing in 4 part harmony. I've had more than one friend we've taken to that old church be totally flabbergasted at the farmers coming in and being able to sing like a seasoned choir from nothing more than a pitch pipe.

 

[Taz]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Uhhhh, that's kind of the point. Everyone hurts, and everyone is a loser in their own way. Our church has three rules:

1. No perfect people allowed.
2. No one stands alone.
2. Everyone's story matters.

I guess that leaves you out.

Ya but not only are you losers in life, you then get together to believe in a fantasy world. How does mass delusion help?

It doesn't. This is not mass delusion. You believe it to be because you have not experienced the reality of relationship with the living God.

It’s a make believe relationship, a living god can’t be proven.

 

[Taz]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

 

[hadit]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

 

[hadit]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Uhhhh, that's kind of the point. Everyone hurts, and everyone is a loser in their own way. Our church has three rules:

1. No perfect people allowed.
2. No one stands alone.
2. Everyone's story matters.

I guess that leaves you out.

Ya but not only are you losers in life, you then get together to believe in a fantasy world. How does mass delusion help?

It doesn't. This is not mass delusion. You believe it to be because you have not experienced the reality of relationship with the living God.

It’s a make believe relationship, a living god can’t be proven.

He doesn't have to be proven to those in relationship with Him.

 

[Taz]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Keep looking Cecile. You'll find your church. It seems like it's extra hard when you leave a church you really liked. Hang in there.

I'm torn. On the one hand, you obviously want a church that feeds your spiritual needs; on the other hand, you want to avoid what CS Lewis said about "church shopping":

"Surely you know that if a man can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that ‘suits’ him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches.... the search for a ‘suitable’ church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil."

I'm going to attend other churches, because hey, new city. It's just important to keep in mind that what matters most is that the teaching is right with God.

I'm just wondering how you get away from this modern, performance-based, "mega-church" mentality. Even the smaller churches seem to have adopted it.

Unfortunately, it's one of the ways the Church has adopted the ways of the world. Community used to be important, and the Church service was a way to keep close contact with fellow believers, to encourage and strengthen each other. That way, if someone was in trouble or needed help, their Church community was not only the first on the scene but brought real help.

That's not how it's done in modern America. In modern America, you don't know your neighbors, you don't know the people you worship with, and you CERTAINLY never make yourself vulnerable to anyone. If you need help, you call a government bureaucracy before you talk to your Church family. Trouble is more of an embarrassment then an opportunity for service.

You're not wrong there.

I mean, I'm not being my grandmother here. She railed against the "modernization" of churches, because she didn't like "new-fangled" choruses in the worship service instead of traditional hymns, and she about plotzed when the pastor allowed instruments other than a piano and an organ for accompaniment. The fog machine and the "song leader" with the tattoo on his bald head would have given her apoplexy.

I just don't understand how anyone is getting the deep, strong, personal relationship with their Creator that's necessary now more than ever to stand against the world and the evil in it from this drive-through religion. What is even the point here? To feel like you're sanctified and holy because you did God the "favor" of taking less time out of your week for Him than you would devote to going to the movies?

 

[Cecilie1200]

How much did they hit you up for that?

Churches don't "hit up". They pass an offering plate, you contribute or you don't, and you're still welcome to attend whether you give or not.

If you attended church, you'd know that.

I went to church as a youngin'. They pass the plate around, as everyone gives you the eye to see what you're dropping in. What did you give? What's the going rate today?

Today most giving is done online, and no one's looking over your shoulder.

That is very true. Pretty much every church has a website that allows you to pay your tithes directly from your debit card, and even arrange automatic payments if that's your thing.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Sparkles, you are in no position whatsoever to denigrate anyone else as a loser.

But c'mon, a room full of people who think that an invisible sky daddy made a woman out of a man's rib? What would you call them?

Beyond any judgement from the likes of you.

So you believe that a woman was made out of a man's rib?

Why not? Dolly the sheep was made by human scientists from one cell taken from a mammary gland. You don't find anything farfetched and unbelievable about THAT, do you?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I sorta miss church. But....its too much drama now. Once upon a time, one could just walk in to any church to sit in solitude and converse privately with God...but nowadays, the church is locked up tight and the preacher lives across town in a fancy condo. Or has a huge house behind the church with even more huge gates to protect his fancy cars.

I have found more peace out in the woods near the creek...or at the beach. Alone. Than in a church.

Not all congregations are like that. I think you need to find a small one. They can't afford to pay outrageous salaries.

I've never been enormously concerned about the income of the preacher, beyond that I think something's wrong when his pastoral salary has him in a mansion with a Mercedes. At that point, I think God's people need to re-prioritize a little.