What Happened to Church?

[hadit]

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Uhhhh, that's kind of the point. Everyone hurts, and everyone is a loser in their own way. Our church has three rules:

1. No perfect people allowed.
2. No one stands alone.
2. Everyone's story matters.

I guess that leaves you out.

"If I, being what I am, can consider that I am in some sense a Christian, why should the different vices of those people in the next pew prove that their religion is mere hypocrisy and convention?" - CS Lewis, The Screwtape Letters

 

[hadit]

Keep looking Cecile. You'll find your church. It seems like it's extra hard when you leave a church you really liked. Hang in there.

I'm torn. On the one hand, you obviously want a church that feeds your spiritual needs; on the other hand, you want to avoid what CS Lewis said about "church shopping":

"Surely you know that if a man can’t be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighbourhood looking for the church that ‘suits’ him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches.... the search for a ‘suitable’ church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil."

I'm going to attend other churches, because hey, new city. It's just important to keep in mind that what matters most is that the teaching is right with God.

I'm just wondering how you get away from this modern, performance-based, "mega-church" mentality. Even the smaller churches seem to have adopted it.

Unfortunately, it's one of the ways the Church has adopted the ways of the world. Community used to be important, and the Church service was a way to keep close contact with fellow believers, to encourage and strengthen each other. That way, if someone was in trouble or needed help, their Church community was not only the first on the scene but brought real help.

That's not how it's done in modern America. In modern America, you don't know your neighbors, you don't know the people you worship with, and you CERTAINLY never make yourself vulnerable to anyone. If you need help, you call a government bureaucracy before you talk to your Church family. Trouble is more of an embarrassment then an opportunity for service.

You're not wrong there.

I mean, I'm not being my grandmother here. She railed against the "modernization" of churches, because she didn't like "new-fangled" choruses in the worship service instead of traditional hymns, and she about plotzed when the pastor allowed instruments other than a piano and an organ for accompaniment. The fog machine and the "song leader" with the tattoo on his bald head would have given her apoplexy.

I just don't understand how anyone is getting the deep, strong, personal relationship with their Creator that's necessary now more than ever to stand against the world and the evil in it from this drive-through religion. What is even the point here? To feel like you're sanctified and holy because you did God the "favor" of taking less time out of your week for Him than you would devote to going to the movies?

We need to have both. Services need to make the unchurched welcome, but as believers mature, they need more, especially more community.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Yeah. Shame it's got that way. I'm from the sticks myself. Church for us was usually just everybody came to someone's yard, had a picnic and sang old hyms on Sunday. Then they usually baptized in the river there where it settled in a pool. Uncle Carl was always drunk, but he could play Peace In The Valley with that jug of his pretty good.

I dunno. I think maybe what youre talking about in your experience here is just reflective of a new generation.

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

No doubt, but it's also reflective of what a bad idea it is to allow newer generations to demolish traditions willy-nilly, without regard to whether or not they serve an actual purpose.

 

[hadit]

I sorta miss church. But....its too much drama now. Once upon a time, one could just walk in to any church to sit in solitude and converse privately with God...but nowadays, the church is locked up tight and the preacher lives across town in a fancy condo. Or has a huge house behind the church with even more huge gates to protect his fancy cars.

I have found more peace out in the woods near the creek...or at the beach. Alone. Than in a church.

Not all congregations are like that. I think you need to find a small one. They can't afford to pay outrageous salaries.

I've never been enormously concerned about the income of the preacher, beyond that I think something's wrong when his pastoral salary has him in a mansion with a Mercedes. At that point, I think God's people need to re-prioritize a little.

I agree. Wealth trends to corrupt, and if the pastor is more concerned about retaining what he has and getting more than he is about serving, there's a problem. I think of the Apostle Paul, who supported himself, despite being deserving of support from the church.

 

[hadit]

Yeah. Shame it's got that way. I'm from the sticks myself. Church for us was usually just everybody came to someone's yard, had a picnic and sang old hyms on Sunday. Then they usually baptized in the river there where it settled in a pool. Uncle Carl was always drunk, but he could play Peace In The Valley with that jug of his pretty good.

I dunno. I think maybe what youre talking about in your experience here is just reflective of a new generation.

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

No doubt, but it's also reflective of what a bad idea it is to allow newer generations to demolish traditions willy-nilly, without regard to whether or not they serve an actual purpose.

Every generation should take stock of their traditions and jettison those with no purpose and keep those that matter.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How much did they hit you up for that?

A week of penitence.

All churches are not Catholic.

Just be glad they don't use the whip to encourage..

You have some seriously odd notions about what churches are, or even were. Maybe try attending one sometime, rather than believing propaganda.

And maybe try not rushing to every thread on religion to try to derail it so that no one can ever discuss it seriously.

I never heard of a church with a fog machine, but then, I've never attended a church with a video chorus, either. I would suggest you try another church in town, because I really think there must be one more suitable out there somewhere.
P.S. What is A.G.?

Assemblies of God.

 

[Cecilie1200]

So back to my actual topic . . .

I would also like to address the fact that, not only was the "praise and worship team" basically an ad hoc rock band performing for an audience, every single one of them was on the platform in clothes that would be too casual and sloppy for me to get away with wearing to work. And the assistant pastor delivering the message (the pastor was apparently in the hospital for knee surgery) was wearing ratty jeans, sneakers, a t-shirt, and a denim jacket. What is that?

Look, I get that God loves us no matter what, and showing up is far more important to Him than what we're wearing. It's not about whether or not God can or will accept us in casual clothes. It's about respect and reverence. CS Lewis pointed out that, because humans are animals, the dispositions of our bodies both affect and reflect the state of our minds and spirits. We kneel to pray not because it matters particularly to God, but because it reflects a willingness for submission and supplication, and it puts us mentally and spiritually into an attitude of humility and obedience to God.

Likewise, attending church - or leading a church! - in clothes that would be perfectly appropriate for cleaning out the garage, in my mind, reflects the belief that worshipping God requires no more effort and preparation than hanging out with buddies at the local sports bar, and less effort and respect than we would routinely give to - for example - our jobs and our bosses.

Again, I'm probably old-fashioned, but I was raised to believe that you make at least as much effort to give God your best as you would make on - for another example - a first date with someone you really like and want to impress.

If you're attending church, you're at least open to the idea that this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe. If you're attending a Christian church, you're probably at least considering the notion that Jesus, the Son of God, allowed Himself to be tortured to death for your sake. And it's too much to ask of you in return that you find a pair of pants that doesn't have holes in it?

I remember a weeks-long discussion in the kitchens of our town about a guy who showed up to church in his clamming boots one Sunday.
The tide waits for no man; he could go home and shower/change, or he could make the service.
Most decided it was okay, at least he came, but it had to be seriously thought on for some time.

Was clamming a hobby, or his serious source of income?

Personally, were I him, I'd have taken a change of shoes along.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

The minister stands behind a pulpit. Gives him someplace to put his Bible (or his iPad, apparently, these days) and his notes. There was, in fact, no table for communion whatsoever. Would have crowded out the amplifiers and the footlights (!) One assumes the deacons were sitting in the congregation. They didn't have a large, ornate Bible the way older churches used to.

By "altar", I am referring to obvious, designated places for people to get on their knees and pray. In the churches I grew up in, they were usually padded benches situated in the front of the church, on either side of the center platform. Not only are they traditionally considered always available for anyone who wished to put in some serious prayer time, but it was common for a church service to end with an altar call, in which the pastor invited people in attendance to come to the altar, where he, his wife, and the elders of the church would be available to pray with people who wanted to be saved.

I believe in a Catholic church, the altar would be where you go to kneel and receive Holy Communion, and to pray after the priest gives you penance in confession.

 

[hadit]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

You have a very good point, and I believe drive-through religion makes it difficult for believers to grow beyond a fairly rudimentary level. Everyone needs times of spiritual feeding and renewal with fellow believers, and that's hard to do when the most contact you have is 15 minutes before or after a service. Most growth today is going to take place in the small home groups that learn to love and care for each other, not in an entertainment heavy, rushed service.

I think of my parents, who joined a church planting when I was young, and stayed with it until a few years ago, when the music just got too loud and the home Church's traditions were missed too much. They're happy, and so am I.

 

[OldLady]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

Exactly. None of that. An alter in this context is a place at the front of the church where congregants can go to pray. When others see that, they can go to pray with them. In our church, there is simply a stage in which the pastor stands. He can use a lectern if he wants, or he can just walk around with his iPad. The deacons are not set apart in any special way. They're just part of the congregation. Communion is served to the congregation in their seats.

It's just a different way of doing things.

Congregationalists don't go up front to pray. We've got altars though.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

Exactly. None of that. An alter in this context is a place at the front of the church where congregants can go to pray. When others see that, they can go to pray with them. In our church, there is simply a stage in which the pastor stands. He can use a lectern if he wants, or he can just walk around with his iPad. The deacons are not set apart in any special way. They're just part of the congregation. Communion is served to the congregation in their seats.

It's just a different way of doing things.

I couldn't care less where the deacons sit, as long as their happy butts are THERE. I have no use for an "elder of the church" who can't be bothered to attend regularly. Likewise, I'm accustomed to pastors who are rather . . . vigorously active while preaching (Pentecostal churches being known for their fire and brimstone sermons), but as a practical matter, there ought to be somewhere for him to put stuff if he needs.

But altars are non-negotiable, at least as a designated place to pray if not an actual piece of furniture. If a church has no place to call people to God, then it has failed its most basic reason for existing.

 

[OldLady]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

You have a very good point, and I believe drive-through religion makes it difficult for believers to grow beyond a fairly rudimentary level. Everyone needs times of spiritual feeding and renewal with fellow believers, and that's hard to do when the most contact you have is 15 minutes before or after a service. Most growth today is going to take place in the small home groups that learn to love and care for each other, not in an entertainment heavy, rushed service.

Our local church has started serving lunch afterwards. A LOT of folks started showing up, like double the usual number. It's not just for the free food, though, I hope.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

I know what you mean about the music. As a child, we didn't even have musical instruments or a choir in the church. You were taught from little up how to read music and sing in 4 part harmony. I've had more than one friend we've taken to that old church be totally flabbergasted at the farmers coming in and being able to sing like a seasoned choir from nothing more than a pitch pipe.

I believe that talents are a gift from God, so I absolutely believe that one's talents should be used to worship and glorify God. I have zero problem with the types of instruments being played (although I'd probably have to draw the line at a theremin, because come on).

My complaint comes more from the style of the song service. It's not supposed to be a performance-audience sort of thing. I keep coming back to the point that everything about attending church has a purpose, often multiple purposes, that it must fulfill. The purpose of a song service is interactive, communal worship of God through music. This is not accomplished through me sitting (or standing) and watching a light show and listening to a group of people singing the latest hit on Christian radio whose words I can't even understand. That makes it about them putting on a show, not about all of us communing spiritually with our Lord. And it's ridiculously exclusive to anyone who doesn't happen to listen to the latest Christian hits and/or hasn't attended the church long enough to know the band's repertoire.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

A lot of churches I know actually feel a bit uncomfortable mentioning money, to tell the truth. It has to be done, because the bills have to be paid, it still feels kinda crass and tacky. Part of training for ordination includes how to handle offertories in a tactful way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the service or feel like you're putting the arm on folks.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

You have a very good point, and I believe drive-through religion makes it difficult for believers to grow beyond a fairly rudimentary level. Everyone needs times of spiritual feeding and renewal with fellow believers, and that's hard to do when the most contact you have is 15 minutes before or after a service. Most growth today is going to take place in the small home groups that learn to love and care for each other, not in an entertainment heavy, rushed service.

I think of my parents, who joined a church planting when I was young, and stayed with it until a few years ago, when the music just got too loud and the home Church's traditions were missed too much. They're happy, and so am I.

Heard that, but it's not even just the utter lack of community. That bothers me a lot, but it's still secondary to the fast-food spirituality. Like I said, the message (very hard to call something that only lasted twenty minutes a "sermon") was Biblically on-point, and certainly relevant to life issues, but spiritually speaking, it had the nutritional value of a Happy Meal, particularly when you consider that it was accompanied by nothing else in the way of teaching and revelation. I mean, I got basically the same lesson, in very nearly the same form, in Sunday School class when I was in third grade. It's correct, but it's not exactly in-depth spiritual insight for adults.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

Exactly. None of that. An alter in this context is a place at the front of the church where congregants can go to pray. When others see that, they can go to pray with them. In our church, there is simply a stage in which the pastor stands. He can use a lectern if he wants, or he can just walk around with his iPad. The deacons are not set apart in any special way. They're just part of the congregation. Communion is served to the congregation in their seats.

It's just a different way of doing things.

Congregationalists don't go up front to pray. We've got altars though.

What do you use them for?

 

[Cecilie1200]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

You have a very good point, and I believe drive-through religion makes it difficult for believers to grow beyond a fairly rudimentary level. Everyone needs times of spiritual feeding and renewal with fellow believers, and that's hard to do when the most contact you have is 15 minutes before or after a service. Most growth today is going to take place in the small home groups that learn to love and care for each other, not in an entertainment heavy, rushed service.

Our local church has started serving lunch afterwards. A LOT of folks started showing up, like double the usual number. It's not just for the free food, though, I hope.

It is an old, only half-joking saying in the AG: "Wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, there shall be food."