What Happened to Church?

[james bond]

On the one hand, you obviously want a church that feeds your spiritual needs; on the other hand, you want to avoid what CS Lewis said about "church shopping":

I quit my former church because of the way the pastor treated me. It involved a lot of work for a newcomer as I was given one of the most difficult fund-raising jobs. Still, I did the best I could and for two years. I didn't think the church was run well and it was always short of money. One time, it was burglarized of costly tools and heavy equipment. What I didn't like was feeling second class as a newcomer. What ended up happening was the pastor saying to read Matthew because I wanted to know about marriage, being divorced at the time. It wasn't discussed that much and an outside person would come in to explain. It was controversial due to gay marriage before the law was changed in 2015. Eventually, I realized the church would not marry me a second time because I was divorced. Why couldn't the pastor just explain since she knew I was divorced? Instead of telling me to read Matthew and I had to find out for myself. It felt like a wasted three years. I found out if I had gotten married again before I learned of Matthew, i.e. what Jesus said, then I would've been accepted as a regular married person. I left the church and never looked back. I think the church policy has changed due to the law changing. Even the Catholic Church changed so that divorced people can receive communion.

During this time, I tried the Buddhist church for a couple of years and it was an interesting experience. It gave me someplace to go on Sundays and a sense of helping the community. However, I knew it would not last as I believed in God. A few months ago, I found a church in my neighborhood that seems right for me. I feel the Holy Spirit guided me there. It's a bigger church, so there isn't a feeling of togetherness like that of a smaller church. Yet, it focuses on working with the community, too. It's really nice because it's within walking distance in the neighborhood. There are many different churches today, so it may be harder to find what you are looking for. Good luck in your search and my prayers to you being successful in finding a church that's right for you.

 

[Natural Citizen]

...a group of people singing the latest hit on Christian radio whose words I can't even understand. That makes it about them putting on a show, not about all of us communing spiritually with our Lord. And it's ridiculously exclusive to anyone who doesn't happen to listen to the latest Christian hits and/or hasn't attended the church long enough to know the band's repertoire.

I completely agree with this. It's like you're forced to practice your faith the way someone else practices theirs, too. It's almost like they kind of use the church for a gig.

Give me a little church with a steeple and a piano and the old hyms and I'm good. And, yo uknow, every onece i na while Amen, Brother. Alright. Hallelujah. You got that right. Praise the Lawd.

Thats' what I'm used to anyway.

 

[hadit]

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

This is what happens when you're more determined to troll than to discuss. You end up saying patently absurd things, like that. Obviously, we give, or the bills wouldn't be paid, we couldn't support our missionaries, community outreach wouldn't happen, etc. If you're not going to be serious, go away.

 

[Natural Citizen]

I like gospel quartets, they're pretty good usally.

 

[hadit]

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Why do you care what other people give when they do it anonymously?

 

[hadit]

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

A lot of churches I know actually feel a bit uncomfortable mentioning money, to tell the truth. It has to be done, because the bills have to be paid, it still feels kinda crass and tacky. Part of training for ordination includes how to handle offertories in a tactful way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the service or feel like you're putting the arm on folks.

God doesn't provide for his ministers. I wonder why.

Of course God provides for His ministers . . . by instructing His people in their obligations to compensate those who minister to them.

The ministry is a vocation and a calling, but it is also a job. As such, the church as the pastor's employer has the same obligation to pay him commensurate with his job expectations and performance, at least under normal circumstances.

I hate to break it to you, but God has more important concerns than impressing your grade-school mind with unnecessary miracles, and dropping manna from Heaven every morning is a fairly inefficient way of getting things done for everyone involved.

So god tells you to pay for the ministers? How much?

What the church board votes for. You see, your trolling is getting you nowhere.

 

[Cecilie1200]

...a group of people singing the latest hit on Christian radio whose words I can't even understand. That makes it about them putting on a show, not about all of us communing spiritually with our Lord. And it's ridiculously exclusive to anyone who doesn't happen to listen to the latest Christian hits and/or hasn't attended the church long enough to know the band's repertoire.

I completely agree with this. It's like you're forced to practice your faith the way someone else practices theirs, too. It's almost like they kind of use the church for a gig.

Give me a little church with a steeple and a piano and the old hyms and I'm good. And, yo uknow, every onece i na while Amen, Brother. Alright. Hallelujah. You got that right. Praise the Lawd.

Thats' what I'm used to anyway.

I'm pretty picky, because I was raised with a very high standard. My father was a lay minister, and the kind of Christian other Christians wish they were, and I come from a long family line of ordained ministers with extensive educations, so pretty much everyone in my family is capable of arguing complex theology (and usually have to argue it with each other, because it's becoming harder and harder to find anyone else who can). Also, the pastors I grew up with have all been very good men AND well-educated theologically AND traditionalists. Unfortunately, two of the three are now dead, and the third is 200 miles away, so whatcha gonna do?

In terms of preaching, there's not a chance in the world that I'm going to ever be happy or satisfied with the Sunday School blog posts that pass for sermons in so many churches today. I outgrew that decades ago, and I am looking to learn and grow and find insights from others' revelations.

I think I've pretty much covered the music question in detail. Having had extensive musical training myself, I'm particularly sensitive both to what music in worship SHOULD do, and to what it's NOT doing. An actual, honest-to-God church choir would be a bonus.

In terms of a church community, mega-churches are obviously out, but small churches with a handful of grannies waiting to die are also not good, because I do feel the urge to actually be active in DOING something meaningful and useful. And I very much want my boys to be able to participate in a community of young people and mentors who will help me to raise them well in a world where that's harder to do than ever.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I like gospel quartets, they're pretty good usally.

I've always had a soft spot in my heart for Southern and bluegrass gospel, because my parents came from the Appalachian region and my father absolutely LOVED that sort of thing. When he was in the nursing home, he spent a lot of time listening to CDs and tapes and they were always playing throughout our visits.

In fact, my mom discovered a song called "Beyond the Grave" by a group called the Galloways during this time, and she thought it was perfect for his funeral, but she couldn't find a copy of it (It's a relatively old song and relatively obscure group). So she wrote to the Galloways and asked if there was some way to purchase a copy from them. They sent her a CD as a gift, with an absolutely lovely letter.

 

[Taz]

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

This is what happens when you're more determined to troll than to discuss. You end up saying patently absurd things, like that. Obviously, we give, or the bills wouldn't be paid, we couldn't support our missionaries, community outreach wouldn't happen, etc. If you're not going to be serious, go away.

You're not serious about this thread or else you'd tell me what you give.

 

[Taz]

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Why do you care what other people give when they do it anonymously?

And I quote myself "I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go".

 

[Erinwltr]

So back to my actual topic . . .

I would also like to address the fact that, not only was the "praise and worship team" basically an ad hoc rock band performing for an audience, every single one of them was on the platform in clothes that would be too casual and sloppy for me to get away with wearing to work. And the assistant pastor delivering the message (the pastor was apparently in the hospital for knee surgery) was wearing ratty jeans, sneakers, a t-shirt, and a denim jacket. What is that?

Look, I get that God loves us no matter what, and showing up is far more important to Him than what we're wearing. It's not about whether or not God can or will accept us in casual clothes. It's about respect and reverence. CS Lewis pointed out that, because humans are animals, the dispositions of our bodies both affect and reflect the state of our minds and spirits. We kneel to pray not because it matters particularly to God, but because it reflects a willingness for submission and supplication, and it puts us mentally and spiritually into an attitude of humility and obedience to God.

Likewise, attending church - or leading a church! - in clothes that would be perfectly appropriate for cleaning out the garage, in my mind, reflects the belief that worshipping God requires no more effort and preparation than hanging out with buddies at the local sports bar, and less effort and respect than we would routinely give to - for example - our jobs and our bosses.

Again, I'm probably old-fashioned, but I was raised to believe that you make at least as much effort to give God your best as you would make on - for another example - a first date with someone you really like and want to impress.

If you're attending church, you're at least open to the idea that this is the Almighty Creator of the Universe. If you're attending a Christian church, you're probably at least considering the notion that Jesus, the Son of God, allowed Himself to be tortured to death for your sake. And it's too much to ask of you in return that you find a pair of pants that doesn't have holes in it?

No you are not old-fashioned, you are hyper judgmental. A light speed, excessively critical point of view. Start your own church because you will not be happy with anything else.

 

[hadit]

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Google is your friend. Do your homework.

 

[hadit]

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

This is what happens when you're more determined to troll than to discuss. You end up saying patently absurd things, like that. Obviously, we give, or the bills wouldn't be paid, we couldn't support our missionaries, community outreach wouldn't happen, etc. If you're not going to be serious, go away.

You're not serious about this thread or else you'd tell me what you give.

There's a Biblical admonition to not brag about your giving or to make it a public display. You don't get to know. Churches survive and thrive with no coercion, that's the bottom line.

 

[Taz]

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Google is your friend. Do your homework.

You 2 seem embarrassed to say. I get it. You're cheap.

 

[Taz]

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

This is what happens when you're more determined to troll than to discuss. You end up saying patently absurd things, like that. Obviously, we give, or the bills wouldn't be paid, we couldn't support our missionaries, community outreach wouldn't happen, etc. If you're not going to be serious, go away.

You're not serious about this thread or else you'd tell me what you give.

There's a Biblical admonition to not brag about your giving or to make it a public display. You don't get to know. Churches survive and thrive with no coercion, that's the bottom line.

Churches seem to be closing in a lot of places. Too many cheap Christians I guess.

 

[hadit]

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Google is your friend. Do your homework.

You 2 seem embarrassed to say. I get it. You're cheap.

Jesus made it clear that our giving is not to be a public spectacle, so you'll get nothing.

You're trolling again and trying to goad me into a game with you. I'm not interested in such. Like I said, I'm sure you can find the average percent of their annual income church goers give somewhere on the net. If you really want to know, you'll look it up. If you don't look it up, all you're trying to do is troll this thread. Now, this whole thing is way off topic, and since you're not serious about any of it, no more need be said.

 

[Taz]

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Google is your friend. Do your homework.

You 2 seem embarrassed to say. I get it. You're cheap.

Jesus made it clear that our giving is not to be a public spectacle, so you'll get nothing.

You're trolling again and trying to goad me into a game with you. I'm not interested in such. Like I said, I'm sure you can find the average percent of their annual income church goers give somewhere on the net. If you really want to know, you'll look it up. If you don't look it up, all you're trying to do is troll this thread. Now, this whole thing is way off topic, and since you're not serious about any of it, no more need be said.

So what percent of your income do you pay? Give me a real world example. Jesus would approve.

 

[cnm]

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times.

Fort Fun said differently.

 

[Cecilie1200]

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

This is what happens when you're more determined to troll than to discuss. You end up saying patently absurd things, like that. Obviously, we give, or the bills wouldn't be paid, we couldn't support our missionaries, community outreach wouldn't happen, etc. If you're not going to be serious, go away.

You're not serious about this thread or else you'd tell me what you give.

 

[Cecilie1200]

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

Why do you care what other people give when they do it anonymously?

And I quote myself "I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go".