What Happened to Church?

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Sparkles, you are in no position whatsoever to denigrate anyone else as a loser.

But c'mon, a room full of people who think that an invisible sky daddy made a woman out of a man's rib? What would you call them?

Frightened.

 

[OldLady]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

Exactly. None of that. An alter in this context is a place at the front of the church where congregants can go to pray. When others see that, they can go to pray with them. In our church, there is simply a stage in which the pastor stands. He can use a lectern if he wants, or he can just walk around with his iPad. The deacons are not set apart in any special way. They're just part of the congregation. Communion is served to the congregation in their seats.

It's just a different way of doing things.

Congregationalists don't go up front to pray. We've got altars though.

What do you use them for?

It's where the minister stands. It's where the communion service is. It is where the deacons sit. It is where the stand with the big Bible sits.
When people get christened, married or die is the only time they're up at the altar, though. Except when the Sunday School does a play or presentation.

 

[mudwhistle]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

Yeah. Sucks.
I prefer Bible studies instead.
Holy communion once a month.

 

[OldLady]

I have to say that when one ends up at a gathering where the "chemistry" feels so off, it is very obvious to the "seeker" whether it is a church, a religious group, a social event, a date, etc...Stay true to your instincts and keep searching for what feels good and right.

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

You have a very good point, and I believe drive-through religion makes it difficult for believers to grow beyond a fairly rudimentary level. Everyone needs times of spiritual feeding and renewal with fellow believers, and that's hard to do when the most contact you have is 15 minutes before or after a service. Most growth today is going to take place in the small home groups that learn to love and care for each other, not in an entertainment heavy, rushed service.

Our local church has started serving lunch afterwards. A LOT of folks started showing up, like double the usual number. It's not just for the free food, though, I hope.

It is an old, only half-joking saying in the AG: "Wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, there shall be food."

What does AG stand for?

 

[Cecilie1200]

Pretty sure a mega-church that looks and feels more like a shopping mall than a house of worship is not going to work for me, on a profound level. And fog machines are completely out of the question.

I've found another church that I want to try. They at least appear to have proper Sunday services, going by the schedule on their bulletin.

Oh, and if they have nary an altar in sight in the sanctuary, I think I'm outta there.

What do you mean by an "altar?" Where does the minister stand? Is there no table for the communion service? No seats for the deacons? No stand for the Bible?

Exactly. None of that. An alter in this context is a place at the front of the church where congregants can go to pray. When others see that, they can go to pray with them. In our church, there is simply a stage in which the pastor stands. He can use a lectern if he wants, or he can just walk around with his iPad. The deacons are not set apart in any special way. They're just part of the congregation. Communion is served to the congregation in their seats.

It's just a different way of doing things.

Congregationalists don't go up front to pray. We've got altars though.

What do you use them for?

It's where the minister stands. It's where the communion service is. It is where the deacons sit. It is where the stand with the big Bible sits.
When people get christened, married or die is the only time they're up at the altar, though. Except when the Sunday School does a play or presentation.

Ah. Okay, we generally have a platform, which is like a stage, where the minister stands behind a pulpit and the choir stands on risers behind him (if there happens to be a choir) and there are usually a couple of chairs for guest speakers and such. The churches I grew up in also had a large table centered in front of the platform which was variously referred to as the communion table or the communion altar, to differentiate it from the prayer altars. Most of the time, there was a large, ornate Bible on a stand, a cross, and perhaps a seasonal flower arrangement. For those services when we had Communion, room was made to place the stacking trays of wafers and cups on either side of the Bible.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I went to a new church for the first time this morning (because I moved to a new city a few months back, and now I need to find a new church home), and I have to say I don't feel even remotely sufficiently churched.

Maybe I'm just really old-fashioned. I grew up in the same two churches throughout my life; in fact, my husband and I were married in one of them. They were both good-sized, but neither was a "mega-church", and it was not only possible to know everyone in the church, it was impossible NOT to. The services took upwards of two hours from start to finish, and they happened three times a week. When the service ended, there were often people still praying at the altars (this church doesn't even HAVE altars), and it took at least another hour for people to get done talking and interacting and head out the doors. The song service was inclusive; the entire congregation worshipping God through music together.

This service was over in an hour; the song service was the "worship team" - basically a music group - giving a performance with lights and videos on screens and a FOG MACHINE, for crying out loud. It was a lot more like going to a concert than anything interactive. Everyone was out the door in about fifteen minutes, the pastors (they apparently have a huge heirarchy of them) were nowhere in sight, and there was no effort made to even identify new attendees, much less meet them and make them feel welcome. The sermon was still on-point in the Word of God, and they don't seem to have edited out the "icky" parts so many churches do - y'know, references to the Crucifixion, blood, death, Hell, all that uncomfortable stuff - but I have to wonder how you're supposed to learn and grow and connect with the Christian community and draw closer to God when an hour a week of listening to other people perform is all the effort you put into it.

Yeah. Sucks.
I prefer Bible studies instead.
Holy communion once a month.

I want services AND Bible studies. Every fiber of my old-fashioned, stick-in-the-mud being rebels at the idea that God is not worthy of as much time and effort as people put into binge-watching Netflix.

 

[Cecilie1200]

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

I couldn't care less whether the seats are comfortable (so long as they aren't so awful that they torment my arthritic joints; there's a point at which you just have to be practical), and "everybody looks like me" is a matter of supreme indifference. Hell, everybody IN MY OWN FAMILY doesn't look like me.

But while my concerns might seem superficial - and in a sense, they are - they also speak to a very real and profound issue. Attending church has several purposes, woven together into a rather complex balancing act, and these particular issues bother me precisely because they seem to be symptoms of an underlying problem in fulfilling those purposes.

Put more simply, I can't see how drive-through religion is meeting any of the spiritual needs of the congregation.

You have a very good point, and I believe drive-through religion makes it difficult for believers to grow beyond a fairly rudimentary level. Everyone needs times of spiritual feeding and renewal with fellow believers, and that's hard to do when the most contact you have is 15 minutes before or after a service. Most growth today is going to take place in the small home groups that learn to love and care for each other, not in an entertainment heavy, rushed service.

Our local church has started serving lunch afterwards. A LOT of folks started showing up, like double the usual number. It's not just for the free food, though, I hope.

It is an old, only half-joking saying in the AG: "Wherever two or three are gathered together in His name, there shall be food."

What does AG stand for?

Answered that earlier. Assemblies of God.

 

[Taz]

Church is for losers, next time you go, just look around.

Sparkles, you are in no position whatsoever to denigrate anyone else as a loser.

But c'mon, a room full of people who think that an invisible sky daddy made a woman out of a man's rib? What would you call them?

Beyond any judgement from the likes of you.

So you believe that a woman was made out of a man's rib?

Why not? Dolly the sheep was made by human scientists from one cell taken from a mammary gland. You don't find anything farfetched and unbelievable about THAT, do you?

Comparing a book of myths to actual science.

 

[Taz]

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

Again, there is no pressure at our church. Why can't you ever let go of that? You're so absolutely certain there is pressure that you bring it up time and time again. I'm telling you there is none.

So you pretend to give. Cool.

 

[Taz]

That works for cultural things. IOW, I like the music, the seats are comfortable, everyone around me looks like me, and the guy behind me isn't spewing garlic into the air, but God isn't always about our comfort.

At a point in our Christian growth, we move from "what's in it for me" to "what can I bring to the table for others". Ministry isn't solely the responsibility of the leadership. In fact, more ministry can and should be done be the congregation.

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

A lot of churches I know actually feel a bit uncomfortable mentioning money, to tell the truth. It has to be done, because the bills have to be paid, it still feels kinda crass and tacky. Part of training for ordination includes how to handle offertories in a tactful way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the service or feel like you're putting the arm on folks.

God doesn't provide for his ministers. I wonder why.

 

[Taz]

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Sparkles, you are in no position whatsoever to denigrate anyone else as a loser.

But c'mon, a room full of people who think that an invisible sky daddy made a woman out of a man's rib? What would you call them?

Beyond any judgement from the likes of you.

So you believe that a woman was made out of a man's rib?

Why not? Dolly the sheep was made by human scientists from one cell taken from a mammary gland. You don't find anything farfetched and unbelievable about THAT, do you?

Comparing a book of myths to actual science.

Defining "science" as "things I like".

 

[Cecilie1200]

So just curious, what does this cost you a week in "donations"? I mean, aside from working for free.

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

A lot of churches I know actually feel a bit uncomfortable mentioning money, to tell the truth. It has to be done, because the bills have to be paid, it still feels kinda crass and tacky. Part of training for ordination includes how to handle offertories in a tactful way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the service or feel like you're putting the arm on folks.

God doesn't provide for his ministers. I wonder why.

Of course God provides for His ministers . . . by instructing His people in their obligations to compensate those who minister to them.

The ministry is a vocation and a calling, but it is also a job. As such, the church as the pastor's employer has the same obligation to pay him commensurate with his job expectations and performance, at least under normal circumstances.

I hate to break it to you, but God has more important concerns than impressing your grade-school mind with unnecessary miracles, and dropping manna from Heaven every morning is a fairly inefficient way of getting things done for everyone involved.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

The only thing that's bizarre is that you were apparently raised by wolves and have no concept of what is and isn't appropriate to be "curious" about in other people's lives.

It's called "civilized behavior". Since your parents apparently didn't teach it, you should look into it.

 

[Taz]

But c'mon, a room full of people who think that an invisible sky daddy made a woman out of a man's rib? What would you call them?

Beyond any judgement from the likes of you.

So you believe that a woman was made out of a man's rib?

Why not? Dolly the sheep was made by human scientists from one cell taken from a mammary gland. You don't find anything farfetched and unbelievable about THAT, do you?

Comparing a book of myths to actual science.

Defining "science" as "things I like".

Science isn't something to like or not like, it is what it finds. That seems to scare you. Why?

 

[Taz]

Giving is totally voluntary, as we've all been saying many times. You seem really hung up on the giving that people do. You need to stop that.

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

A lot of churches I know actually feel a bit uncomfortable mentioning money, to tell the truth. It has to be done, because the bills have to be paid, it still feels kinda crass and tacky. Part of training for ordination includes how to handle offertories in a tactful way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the service or feel like you're putting the arm on folks.

God doesn't provide for his ministers. I wonder why.

Of course God provides for His ministers . . . by instructing His people in their obligations to compensate those who minister to them.

The ministry is a vocation and a calling, but it is also a job. As such, the church as the pastor's employer has the same obligation to pay him commensurate with his job expectations and performance, at least under normal circumstances.

I hate to break it to you, but God has more important concerns than impressing your grade-school mind with unnecessary miracles, and dropping manna from Heaven every morning is a fairly inefficient way of getting things done for everyone involved.

So god tells you to pay for the ministers? How much?

 

[Taz]

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

The only thing that's bizarre is that you were apparently raised by wolves and have no concept of what is and isn't appropriate to be "curious" about in other people's lives.

It's called "civilized behavior". Since your parents apparently didn't teach it, you should look into it.

So being curious about what people drop at church isn't civilized? Geez, you're a touchy bunch.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Beyond any judgement from the likes of you.

So you believe that a woman was made out of a man's rib?

Why not? Dolly the sheep was made by human scientists from one cell taken from a mammary gland. You don't find anything farfetched and unbelievable about THAT, do you?

Comparing a book of myths to actual science.

Defining "science" as "things I like".

Science isn't something to like or not like, it is what it finds. That seems to scare you. Why?

Listen up, Sparky. This thread is NOT about you hotfooting it in here to spam everyone with repeated, mindless drivelings about how much you hate God. Nor is it about harassing people with incredibly rude personal questions that are totally off-topic, either because you simply can't bear even the possibility that someone might talk about religion seriously, or because you're so emotionally and mentally stunted that you insist on being the center of attention, even if it's only the same way that a dog licking his own balls at a dinner party is the center of attention.

I started this thread because I had something I wanted to talk about with people who have similar interests and experiences and might have relevant insights. YOU are not one of those people on any of those levels. Contrary to your immature, self-absorbed worldview, this thread is not addressed at you and you literally have less to offer on this topic than you would on quantum physics.

If you absolutely MUST hang around and yap at everyone's ankles, you will at least attempt to stay on-topic and stop trying to remake the thread into "You're stupid for believing in God because I hate God so that makes you stupid for believing in God when I hate God".

You ran out my patience and courtesy two threads ago. Grow up.

 

[Cecilie1200]

But what do YOU give? Like $50?

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

A lot of churches I know actually feel a bit uncomfortable mentioning money, to tell the truth. It has to be done, because the bills have to be paid, it still feels kinda crass and tacky. Part of training for ordination includes how to handle offertories in a tactful way that doesn't disrupt the flow of the service or feel like you're putting the arm on folks.

God doesn't provide for his ministers. I wonder why.

Of course God provides for His ministers . . . by instructing His people in their obligations to compensate those who minister to them.

The ministry is a vocation and a calling, but it is also a job. As such, the church as the pastor's employer has the same obligation to pay him commensurate with his job expectations and performance, at least under normal circumstances.

I hate to break it to you, but God has more important concerns than impressing your grade-school mind with unnecessary miracles, and dropping manna from Heaven every morning is a fairly inefficient way of getting things done for everyone involved.

So god tells you to pay for the ministers? How much?

Find a Bible. Find someone willing to read that Bible to you. Tell them to read from 1 Corinthians chapter 9.

And unless you can somehow relate "Money! Tell me all about your personal finances! I neeeeed to know your finances!" to the thread topic, this is the last post you will make on this utterly off-topic tangential attempt at thread-blocking to which I will respond.

 

[Cecilie1200]

We give an amount that my wife and I both agree to give. We don't limit it to just that though. And, as I've repeatedly said, no one pushes for more or even checks that we give. We give through our Church's portal, as do most people, so no one knows how much, and that's the way it's supposed to be. Apparently, your experience has scarred you so badly that you can't conceive of a church that operates differently. Can you actually accept that many congregations do not pressure anyone to give money, or is that just too difficult?

You give less than $50. How about $20? That too much?

And yes, it’s all about the money or they wouldn’t pressure everyone to give, portal or not.

How about you learn to mind your own business? Good Lord, are you this nosy and intrusive into the private lives of everyone you encounter, or do you just assume that your visceral hatred of God entitles you to be an ill-mannered ass toward Christians?

I'm just curious how much folks give these days in case I ever go. So you fly off the handle. Bizarre.

The only thing that's bizarre is that you were apparently raised by wolves and have no concept of what is and isn't appropriate to be "curious" about in other people's lives.

It's called "civilized behavior". Since your parents apparently didn't teach it, you should look into it.

So being curious about what people drop at church isn't civilized? Geez, you're a touchy bunch.

You mean humans? Yeah, we're weird that way.