What is "Trickle Down Economics"?

[The Rabbi]

So we spurn economic efficiency and all go down in a suicide pact where we all protect the jobs we have until our companies go out of business.

Yeah, you're a coward. There is no status quo choice. You either embrace the future and thrive or cling to the past and fail. The socialists pick the latter, I hoped you would pick the former. I stand corrected.

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Exactly. You either embrace the future and thrive, or you fight it and die. There is no status quo option.

People dont get that.
First gov't put in workmen's comp rules that made running a factory very expensive. So factory owners couldnt compete with, e.g. Mexican labor and moved their production to Mexico. Conservatives said the issue was taxes and regulation. Liberals said the issue was greed. Those jobs largely havent come back. And this is even though strictly speaking the labor unit cost in the US is lower.

So now you get libs and libertarians talking about putting tariffs on imported goods to save American jobs. It's nonsense. Tariffs protect inefficient industries. If you want a highly inefficient industry, institute tariffs. The results will be sclerotic jobs and no growth with higher costs all around.

 

[kaz]

Hand me my ass? Um...OK... I have experience and education, you quoted one person who agrees with you. Wow, I'm humbled. Then you do have no nuts RKMBrown on your side.

you have experience and training ? Funny it doesn't show.

I RAN a company that posted 7 figure quarters EVERY quarter for over 15 years. I hired/fired dolts that lived on their MBA degree. Stop trying to pump up your credentials and make yourself look superior ... I'll buy your house and turn it into a pig farm.

I had over 500 people working for me at one time. I've run two of own companies. I've watched and worked for the IT companies who have gone through these phases of layoffs. I've read the long term plans for how the jobs would be moved at large IT corporations. I don't feel the need to provide evidence when it's not asked for and quite frankly is widely known and published data.

I don't blame Kaz, that's his job. I've also been in the same job of training replacements for my team so we could do "more interesting" work. Only to eventually see them get laid off in the thousands when the recession hit, while the foreign workers were kept on board.

The answer to offshoring is to leave the companies who are doing it and to bury them with better products.

Now that I am for. I am arguing for economic efficiency. If you can beat them, pound them. It is government fighting efficiency that is harming us, not corporations embracing it.

I don't specifically focus on off-shoring. I have built many new business units and capabilities. Now I have my own company. Ironically because of my management consulting background where I start training people to replace me my first day on the job, I've trained my staff too well and I'm bored as shit. I did three acquisitions in under 5 years and I want to spend at least a couple letting things settle out now and focus on organic growth. So I have nothing to do. Well, I'm exaggerating, but I'm not used to not being buried.

 

[Mr Natural]

Halliburton moved its HQ to Dubai in 07

And when things go south in Dubai, who is Halliburton going to look to bail them out?

they're bullet proof... the Feds can't subpoena Halliburton's books now ...

I wasn't talking about financial south.


When the next radical Islamic group decides that Dubai is too Western and starts targeting Western interests, who is Halliburton and the like going to look to save their asses?

 

[RKMBrown]

Fear? I'm not afraid of the offshoring. I'm just not happy about it.

So we spurn economic efficiency and all go down in a suicide pact where we all protect the jobs we have until our companies go out of business.

Yeah, you're a coward. There is no status quo choice. You either embrace the future and thrive or cling to the past and fail. The socialists pick the latter, I hoped you would pick the former. I stand corrected.

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Almost every country in the world other than the USA has protections to stop corporations from offshoring jobs. Including Germany. East germany was merged into Germany and is doing just fine now.

 

[RKMBrown]

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Exactly. You either embrace the future and thrive, or you fight it and die. There is no status quo option.

People dont get that.
First gov't put in workmen's comp rules that made running a factory very expensive. So factory owners couldnt compete with, e.g. Mexican labor and moved their production to Mexico. Conservatives said the issue was taxes and regulation. Liberals said the issue was greed. Those jobs largely havent come back. And this is even though strictly speaking the labor unit cost in the US is lower.

So now you get libs and libertarians talking about putting tariffs on imported goods to save American jobs. It's nonsense. Tariffs protect inefficient industries. If you want a highly inefficient industry, institute tariffs. The results will be sclerotic jobs and no growth with higher costs all around.

Why should our companies have to pay profit tax and foreign companies get to sell products here and not pay the same taxes? Why should china get away with forcing corporations to build product in china to sell product in china, while we use American tax dollars to pay our corporations to move to china?

 

[The Rabbi]

So we spurn economic efficiency and all go down in a suicide pact where we all protect the jobs we have until our companies go out of business.

Yeah, you're a coward. There is no status quo choice. You either embrace the future and thrive or cling to the past and fail. The socialists pick the latter, I hoped you would pick the former. I stand corrected.

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Almost every country in the world other than the USA has protections to stop corporations from offshoring jobs. Including Germany. East germany was merged into Germany and is doing just fine now.

That's not evidence of anything.
East Germany was among the most protected industries in the world. The result was their consumer goods were laughable by western standards, their manufacturing hopelessly outdated, their economy a total wreck. It is hasnt improved much, despite inflows of cash for the last 20 years.

 

[kaz]

So we spurn economic efficiency and all go down in a suicide pact where we all protect the jobs we have until our companies go out of business.

Yeah, you're a coward. There is no status quo choice. You either embrace the future and thrive or cling to the past and fail. The socialists pick the latter, I hoped you would pick the former. I stand corrected.

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Almost every country in the world other than the USA has protections to stop corporations from offshoring jobs. Including Germany. East germany was merged into Germany and is doing just fine now.

Actually, there has been a lot of concern by German corporations being very concerned they can't cut cost and remain competitive with international competition. They are not saying it's fine.

 

[kaz]

Exactly. You either embrace the future and thrive, or you fight it and die. There is no status quo option.

People dont get that.
First gov't put in workmen's comp rules that made running a factory very expensive. So factory owners couldnt compete with, e.g. Mexican labor and moved their production to Mexico. Conservatives said the issue was taxes and regulation. Liberals said the issue was greed. Those jobs largely havent come back. And this is even though strictly speaking the labor unit cost in the US is lower.

So now you get libs and libertarians talking about putting tariffs on imported goods to save American jobs. It's nonsense. Tariffs protect inefficient industries. If you want a highly inefficient industry, institute tariffs. The results will be sclerotic jobs and no growth with higher costs all around.

Why should our companies have to pay profit tax and foreign companies get to sell products here and not pay the same taxes? Why should china get away with forcing corporations to build product in china to sell product in china, while we use American tax dollars to pay our corporations to move to china?

Simple solution. The Fair Tax.

 

[RKMBrown]

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Almost every country in the world other than the USA has protections to stop corporations from offshoring jobs. Including Germany. East germany was merged into Germany and is doing just fine now.

Actually, there has been a lot of concern by German corporations being very concerned they can't cut cost and remain competitive with international competition. They are not saying it's fine.

Finance managers are never satisfied unless there is profit improvement every single year, which is of course not sustainable forever. You can only squeeze so much blood out of a stone. But that won't stop the finance guys from finding cheaper stones to draw blood from.

 

[RKMBrown]

People dont get that.
First gov't put in workmen's comp rules that made running a factory very expensive. So factory owners couldnt compete with, e.g. Mexican labor and moved their production to Mexico. Conservatives said the issue was taxes and regulation. Liberals said the issue was greed. Those jobs largely havent come back. And this is even though strictly speaking the labor unit cost in the US is lower.

So now you get libs and libertarians talking about putting tariffs on imported goods to save American jobs. It's nonsense. Tariffs protect inefficient industries. If you want a highly inefficient industry, institute tariffs. The results will be sclerotic jobs and no growth with higher costs all around.

Why should our companies have to pay profit tax and foreign companies get to sell products here and not pay the same taxes? Why should china get away with forcing corporations to build product in china to sell product in china, while we use American tax dollars to pay our corporations to move to china?

Simple solution. The Fair Tax.

I like sales taxes and real estate taxes. I'm very much against all forms of labor rate taxes. But I also think there should be minimum wage rate import duties / excise taxes to adjust for 3rd world labor rates that do not meet our minimums and esp. for non-compliance with pollution type requirements. Why should we give a bonus to polluters who move to china?

 

[RKMBrown]

If job and industry protection produced strong economies East Germany would be an economic powerhouse.

Almost every country in the world other than the USA has protections to stop corporations from offshoring jobs. Including Germany. East germany was merged into Germany and is doing just fine now.

Actually, there has been a lot of concern by German corporations being very concerned they can't cut cost and remain competitive with international competition. They are not saying it's fine.

Yeah and I personally know hundreds of engineers in Germany that remained on the payroll when our recession hit and American engineers were laid off because we don't have the same protections here.

 

[The Rabbi]

Almost every country in the world other than the USA has protections to stop corporations from offshoring jobs. Including Germany. East germany was merged into Germany and is doing just fine now.

Actually, there has been a lot of concern by German corporations being very concerned they can't cut cost and remain competitive with international competition. They are not saying it's fine.

Yeah and I personally know hundreds of engineers in Germany that remained on the payroll when our recession hit and American engineers were laid off because we don't have the same protections here.

Is that supposed to be evidence for something? Because it's not.

 

[Siete]

And when things go south in Dubai, who is Halliburton going to look to bail them out?

they're bullet proof... the Feds can't subpoena Halliburton's books now ...

I wasn't talking about financial south.


When the next radical Islamic group decides that Dubai is too Western and starts targeting Western interests, who is Halliburton and the like going to look to save their asses?

anything in the mid east isn't our problem, including Halliburton's ass . Saudi Royalty likes American's in the oil biz call them. The Bush/Cheney Cartel has references ...

 

[zeke]

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.”

― Thomas Sowell, Barbarians inside the Gates and Other Controversial Essays

....

While you're spouting these dumb slogans, playing Charlie McCarthy, Edgar Bergman has his hand in your pocket, he wants as much of your money as he can get.

Man, you guys have swallowed this cliche capitalism crap hook, line and sinker. You fell hard for the old bait and switch. You think it's motherhood and apple pie Capitalism under that shell? The reality is that Capitalism doesn't even exist. You're shilling for the Plutocrats running the con game. Under the shell is a good old fashion oligarchy where wealth equals power and power equals more wealth.

You think you're going to get a shot at that power? Not unless you're wealthy. And I mean wealthy, not a lousy couple of million. Real wealth in America is measured in tens of millions or hundreds of millions for starters. The guys running this shell game don't give a shit about the Chigago school, trickle-down or trickle up, Keynes, Friedman, or you. All they care about is which K-street crony can get them a yes vote on the next bauble they want and have convinced you that they need.

While you're sloganeering for the global concentration of corporate power they're laughing all the way to the bank. Must be more than one of you born every minute. You poor phony key-board capitalists. You're nothing more than fairground barkers trying to sell non-existant shares of a non-existant dream to the other suckers lined up outside the gate. Jesus, give me a tea-partier any day, at least some of them know crony-capitalism when they see it.

Econ chick. When I asked you about whether or not you thought there is a plutocracy in this country and around the world, I was actually thinking of what smedley had to offer on the subject, of which I agree with what he wrote.

And was curious as to what some one with your vast knowledge and wealth of experience in high finance and global capitalism would have to say on the matter. What was surprising was that you offered no ideas or opinions on the subject at all. Just kidding.
I didn't really expect you to.

Consult with the rabbit as to what to say about "plutocrats". He'll give up some good non sense answer. Not that you seem to need the help.

 

[Mr Natural]

they're bullet proof... the Feds can't subpoena Halliburton's books now ...

I wasn't talking about financial south.


When the next radical Islamic group decides that Dubai is too Western and starts targeting Western interests, who is Halliburton and the like going to look to save their asses?

anything in the mid east isn't our problem, including Halliburton's ass . Saudi Royalty likes American's in the oil biz call them. The Bush/Cheney Cartel has references ...

You and I both know that that is not what would happen.

The Halliburton big shots would call their lackeys back in Washington to send in the troops.

All funded by we the taxpayers.

 

[RKMBrown]

Actually, there has been a lot of concern by German corporations being very concerned they can't cut cost and remain competitive with international competition. They are not saying it's fine.

Yeah and I personally know hundreds of engineers in Germany that remained on the payroll when our recession hit and American engineers were laid off because we don't have the same protections here.

Is that supposed to be evidence for something? Because it's not.

It's not evidence, it's just a plain fact.

 

[The Rabbi]

Yeah and I personally know hundreds of engineers in Germany that remained on the payroll when our recession hit and American engineers were laid off because we don't have the same protections here.

Is that supposed to be evidence for something? Because it's not.

It's not evidence, it's just a plain fact.

It's actually not. I personally doubt you know hundreds of German engineers.

 

[kaz]

Yeah and I personally know hundreds of engineers in Germany that remained on the payroll when our recession hit and American engineers were laid off because we don't have the same protections here.

Is that supposed to be evidence for something? Because it's not.

It's not evidence, it's just a plain fact.

Anecdotal facts.

The idea that government provides "protections" is delusional. Government is the parasite. Free markets provide the ultimate protections.

 

[kaz]

Is that supposed to be evidence for something? Because it's not.

It's not evidence, it's just a plain fact.

It's actually not. I personally doubt you know hundreds of German engineers.

Not that you know me either, and I haven't changed my mind on anything, but what he told me in our PM discussion on the topic I have no idea how he would know if he wasn't pretty connected in IBM as he said he was. I was in GE Power management in the 2000+ range and we negotiated with IBM to do some work for us. He wasn't in that group, but he knows the organization and the main issue we had with them.

 

[SmedlyButler]

Great. Another clod that sees things in black and white.

Even under your scenario of how horrible life is in a semi Capitalist country, people still start businesses, make a lot of money, take great care of their loved ones, move on and do other things after the realization all that money isn't what it's cracked up to be, and continue to be very happy with their lives and their accomplishments without giving a shit about all that power.

Have both parties engaged in crony capitalism? Absolutely. But those of us who don't whine about "the man" the way you do can still do just fine if we put our minds to it, while also working hard to try to change the system.

You know....like getting on message boards and trying to educate the brainwashed and moronic that can be found glorifying Socialism and collectivism.

Hey econchick, are there such people as "plutocrats? Have you ever run across what the definition of a "plutocracy" is. You know; government of the rich, by the rich, for the rich.
Ever heard that before?

Have there ever been ultra rich people from around the world that have conspired to become even more rich and powerful?

But those people and their desires don't exist today. Is that what you want to claim?
Ever read any history?

What the hell does that have to do with Billc's comment that I was reacting to?

He asked why is it greed to want to keep more in your pocket. Translation: that means why do you libs insist on taking more taxes that are supposed to be helping middle America.

Then smedly doo right comes along and responds to that by going off on some tangent about about there being no such thing as capitalism.

I was just simply throwing the BS flag on smedley implying there is no such thing as capitalism.

Here let me educate you. There's a continuum. Envision it being scored from 1 to 100. Pure Communism all the way at one end and complete laissez faire Capitalism on the other end.

Neither exists. Neither has ever existed. All nations fall somewhere on that continuum. Even with the socialist influences in this country, we are still a Capitalist country.

If you want to talk about powerful government wanting more power - that's a socialist concept.

Now...can we get back to answering why it's considered greedy to want to keep more of your own money............ or do you want to keep getting wayyyyyyyyyy off the subject.

Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. At least not clear enough for you. Read this again please. " The reality is that Capitalism doesn't even exist". I specifically bolded "that" so it would be obvious I thought they were espousing a "fairy dusted" capitalism that doesn't exist. I'm quite aware that capitalism in many shades of grey does exist and if you spoke to any friend of mine they would tell you I'm some kind of successful capitalist in my own right. No where near the Plutocrat benchmark of course. I don't see things in black and white. I do see that a successful mix of the best of capitalism and the best of socialism is possible. Now go ahead and disagree with that. No need to put words I didn't say in my mouth again I hope.