What should U.S. policy be towards the Ukraine conflict?

[gipper]

You said at first this war was “clearly wanted by the U.S. government,” and you backed down when I showed how untrue that Russian propaganda was and is.

Now you argue this war was “purposely instigated and easily avoided” by the U.S. — which is more or less the exact same propaganda line, once removed. You think everything is “clear” but in reality you are often … completely wrong.

For example: It is not at all “clear” that the U.S. and Europe was wrong to have allowed Poland to join NATO in 1999, or allow Bulgaria, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Romania, Slovakia and Slovenia to voluntarily join in 2004 in the largest wave of enlargement in NATO history. Should they have all been flatly refused? And if so, would Russia — whose backward political culture and decaying economy almost inevitably led to the creation of a mafia / security state after the USSR collapsed — have not long ago used the same arguments Putin uses about Russian minorities being oppressed to invade at least the Baltic countries?

You don’t understand history. You only know how to posture politically — and ridiculously — as a “Libertarian / Anarchist.” As if libertarian anarchism could solve the problems of the homeless drug users in L.A.! Actually those miserable communities are a terrible example of what “libertarian anarchism” leads to in the real world. The number of people living on the streets would be multiplied by a thousand times if we tore down capitalist society and government and tried to institute your precious “libertarian anarchism.”

Your criticisms are meant to make you feel good and let you escape hard decisions, blaming the “Establishment” or capitalism for everything, while in fact giving backhanded support to nihilistic views gaining popularity with utterly opportunist Trumpster authoritarians and Putin-loving reactionaries.

In short, while there are plenty of problems with American-style finance capitalism and U.S. foreign policy, plenty of corruption in our society in the “Good Old U.S.A” — your brand of “let’s take care of our own folks at home first” is just a fraud … or a fantasy.

In reality, you are running interference for TRUMPISM, simple-minded MAGA sloganeering, and mimicking old Republican memes about how “small government” is always best. Tell that to Putin and XiJinping. Tell that to the Ukrainians now, who know they need the backing of a great power if they are even to survive as a medium-sized democratic nation.

Trumpism. Silly. Must everything you oppose be Trumpism? Jesus that’s dumb. I don’t support Trump and I’ve made that clear since he murdered Solemani.

 

[Markle]

It is a conflict Russia can’t maintain either militarily or economically

Their military is on the verge of revolt

They can with the help of China and Iran. President Biden has done an admirable job of pushing Russia into that camp. Way to go Joe!

 

[Markle]

I have to laugh at the recent concern of Conservatives over our homeless population

How can we send billions of dollars to Ukraine while people are homeless?

We have an $850 billion a year budget for our military.
How much of that are Conservatives willing to spend for the homeless?

How do we rationalize spending billions on illegal aliens with so many homeless? We're building huge tent cities and putting illegal aliens up in expensive hotels.

We NEED a strong military. We do not need millions of unvetted, unskilled people invading our country.

 

[rightwinger]

They can with the help of China and Iran. President Biden has done an admirable job of pushing Russia into that camp. Way to go Joe!

President Obama offered Russia a reset.
A chance for close economic ties and investment from the West.
Putin slapped his hand away.

So today, Russia is headed to becoming a new North Korea who is dependent on China for its existence

 

[gipper]

President Obama offered Russia a reset.
A chance for close economic ties and investment from the West.
Putin slapped his hand away.

So today, Russia is headed to becoming a new North Korea who is dependent on China for its existence

Exactly backwards. O pushed Russia into this war with his coup, sanctions, military buildup of Ukraine, and support of Nazis killing Russians in the Donbas.

 

[rightwinger]

Exactly backwards. O pushed Russia into this war with his coup, sanctions, military buildup of Ukraine, and support of Nazis killing Russians in the Donbas.

It is Russia slaughtering civilians in the Donbas

 

[Concerned American]

I can't imagine either country will last 20 years but if they do, I'll still support Ukraine so long as there are no American boots on the ground. Ukraine aid is a tiny part of the US budget so we'll never 'run out of money'. Since an expansionist Russia is a big threat to peace, spending our defense dollars there is a great bargain for us.

We ran out of money $32T+ ago..

 

[gipper]

It is Russia slaughtering civilians in the Donbas

Why lie?

 

[Donald H]

But as opportunities arise, Ukraine, NATO & Russia will probably all need to agree to trade “land for peace.”

Russia has gained negotiating power at the bargaining table. Popular opinions say that Russia is not going to give up what they've fought for and won.

That doesn't mean what you may think it means.

The Crimea remains Russia and is not negotiable.

The Donbass regions will not be turned over to the Ukraine. There are several possibilities on it becoming neutral with peace reinstated between it's people.

And America will not get it's advance on Russia's borders by using a part of the Ukraine.

 

[Donald H]

We ran out of money $32T+ ago..

No. But it's money well spent by America if one considers why losing the opportunity to break up Russia, means so much to the Brics alliance that will eclipse American power.

Can you understand that all of America's wars of aggression were for accomplishing the same basic purpose? America didn't destroy Iraq to gain control over their spring cabbage crop my friend!

 

[Concerned American]

No. But it's money well spent by America if one considers why losing the opportunity to break up Russia, means so much to the Brics alliance that will eclipse American power.

Can you understand that all of America's wars of aggression were for accomplishing the same basic purpose? America didn't destroy Iraq to gain control over their spring cabbage crop my friend!

We're clear on your communist agenda duck. Repeating it continuously doesn't change the facts. Run along and troll somewhere else.

 

[rightwinger]

Russia has gained negotiating power at the bargaining table. Popular opinions say that Russia is not going to give up what they've fought for and won.

That doesn't mean what you may think it means.

The Crimea remains Russia and is not negotiable.

The Donbass regions will not be turned over to the Ukraine. There are several possibilities on it becoming neutral with peace reinstated between it's people.

And America will not get it's advance on Russia's borders by using a part of the Ukraine.

Once again, your solution involves no concession from Russia
Just more of….You stop shooting at us and just give us your territory

Russia will have to occupy captured territory and Ukraine will continue either military or terrorist attacks on Russian troops

Military occupation is costly and I doubt Russia can afford it.

 

[rightwinger]

Ukraine has negotiating power
What is it worth to you to keep us out of NATO?

If your solution is…..Russia keeps all captured territory in Crimea and Donbass and we just stop the fighting.

The best option for Ukraine is NATO membership to discourage further Russian aggression

 

[Donald H]

Once again, your solution involves no concession from Russia
Just more of….You stop shooting at us and just give us your territory

Rightfully or not, Russia has gained the negotiating advantage that will be brought to the table. This could decrease or increase as the fight goes on.

Russia will have to occupy captured territory and Ukraine will continue either military or terrorist attacks on Russian troops

Yes, terrorist attacks on Russia, but eventual submission to accepting a formula of neutrality.

Military occupation is costly and I doubt Russia can afford it.

Military occupation can be costly but it depends a lot on the motives of the occupier.

It's not wise to underestimate Russia's wealth! They're sitting on a large portion of the world's wealth. Even the heaviest sanctions against Russia that America can accomplish has resulted in Russia becoming more powerful.

 

[rightwinger]

Rightfully or not, Russia has gained the negotiating advantage that will be brought to the table. This could decrease or increase as the fight goes on.

Yes, terrorist attacks on Russia, but eventual submission to accepting a formula of neutrality.

Military occupation can be costly but it depends a lot on the motives of the occupier.

It's not wise to underestimate Russia's wealth! They're sitting on a large portion of the world's wealth. Even the heaviest sanctions against Russia that America can accomplish has resulted in Russia becoming more powerful.

Another faulty assumption is that Russia will be treated as liberators and welcomed in captured territory

Russia‘s behavior towards the civilian population has been borderline war crimes
Destroying civilian targets, water supplies, rape, starvation, arresting civilians.
Even if they win the war, they will have a hard time winning the peace

 

[Donald H]

Another faulty assumption is that Russia will be treated as liberators and welcomed in captured territory

Are you sure? What is the ethnic makeup of the Donbass regions and the Crimea?

Russia‘s behavior towards the civilian population has been borderline war crimes
Destroying civilian targets, water supplies, rape, starvation, arresting civilians.
Even if they win the war, they will have a hard time winning the peace

In truth, Russia has observed agreed upon restraints, but is now beginning to escalate in kind. For example, cluster munitions that bring civilian deaths and destruction.
Or for example, missile strikes on Ukrainian cities in reply to strikes on Russia. (Moscow)

All of which is so far reasonably contained.

You have to understand that this war is different because politeness must be observed by all sides.

 

[rightwinger]

Are you sure? What is the ethnic makeup of the Donbass regions and the Crimea?

In truth, Russia has observed agreed upon restraints, but is now beginning to escalate in kind. For example, cluster munitions that bring civilian deaths and destruction.
Or for example, missile strikes on Ukrainian cities in reply to strikes on Russia. (Moscow)

All of which is so far reasonably contained.

You have to understand that this war is different because politeness must be observed by all sides.

OK…No longer tolerating your Putin Propaganda

 

[Donald H]

OK…No longer tolerating your Putin Propaganda

Then you can run away and pout if you need to.

"In truth, Russia has observed agreed upon restraints, but is now beginning to escalate in kind. For example, cluster munitions that bring civilian deaths and destruction."

Was it something that I said? Was that it? It is rather convincing isn't it!

 

[ESay]

The very question 'what should the US policy be...' bears little sense. As long as the answer will depend on personal political preferences and other subjective things. These have been discussed over and over again and this thread repeats this pattern.

Far more interesting question is 'what will the US policy be...' But too many actual facts are hidden, too much false information emerges. Any forecasts will resemble more wishful thinking.

 

[gipper]

The very question 'what should the US policy be...' bears little sense. As long as the answer will depend on personal political preferences and other subjective things. These have been discussed over and over again and this thread repeats this pattern.

Far more interesting question is 'what will the US policy be...' But too many actual facts are hidden, too much false information emerges. Any forecasts will resemble more wishful thinking.

It’s really very simple. A policy of nonintervention is easy to implement and follow.

Ukraine is none of the USG’s fucking business.

If this policy had been followed, there’d be no war and 400,000 young Ukrainians would still be alive or uninjured.