Where does free will come from?

[M14 Shooter]

Do you or do you not agree that:
EVERY phyisological process depends on the biological processes found within it.
EVERY biological process depeds on the chemical processes found within it.
EVERY chemical proccess depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
And so:
EVERY physiological process depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.

Already answered in the thread.

Copy/paste, please.

Please point to the specific part where any of this illustrates the physiological mechanism that allows you to consciously, willfully and deliberately choose between pizza and cheseburgers.

For someone who is so proud of his alleged knowledge across all of these disciplines it is surprising that you missed this (albeit simplistic) explanation of the process in question.

The physiology of the brain is not altered by changing our minds. The brain's physiology is such that one of it's functions is to enable us to make choices. The biochemical reactions that are built into physiology of our brains are what result in our reaching decisions. But simply making a decision does not alter that physiology since it already has that ability.

This does not describe the physiological mechanism I asked for.
It states the obvious - that the brain has the ability - but does not describe the mechanics of that ability - specifically, it does not descscribe how the brain creates/controls these biomechanical reactions to reach the decisions we want to make
Please -do- try again.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do you or do you not agree that:
EVERY phyisological process depends on the biological processes found within it.
EVERY biological process depeds on the chemical processes found within it.
EVERY chemical proccess depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
And so:
EVERY physiological process depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.

Already answered in the thread.

Copy/paste, please.

No one is arguing that each of those individual statements are incorrect.

For someone who is so proud of his alleged knowledge across all of these disciplines it is surprising that you missed this (albeit simplistic) explanation of the process in question.

The physiology of the brain is not altered by changing our minds. The brain's physiology is such that one of it's functions is to enable us to make choices. The biochemical reactions that are built into physiology of our brains are what result in our reaching decisions. But simply making a decision does not alter that physiology since it already has that ability.

This does not describe the physiological mechanism I asked for.
It states the obvious - that the brain has the ability - but does not describe the mechanics of that ability - specifically, it does not descscribe how the brain creates/controls these biomechanical reactions to reach the decisions we want to make
Please -do- try again.

If you want a detailed description of the actual neurobiological process Let me google that for you

 

[Montrovant]

You clearly do not understand the question.

You are hungry.
You choose pizza over cheeseburgers.
What mechanism within the laws of physics allows us to control our physiology in the manner necessary to choose pizza?

Which "laws of physics" are you referring to specifically? Our own physiology is what is setting up the hunger and neurons in our brains are part of that same physiology. The decision for pizza might have been as a result of our physiology requiring the chemical nutrients available in mushrooms and pepperoni as opposed to onions and lettuce.

You still do not understand the question.
If we consciously and freely make a decision, it is because we are able to force our brains to behave in a certain way. What mechanism allows us to control our brain's physiology in the manner necessary to make a decision?

I think you are basically setting up the question in such a way that free will is an impossibility. Unless, of course, our thoughts come from something outside the physical universe.

Would you consider it free will if our choices cannot always be predetermined because sometimes those neurons fire in a random, unpredictable way?

 

[Derideo_Te]

Which "laws of physics" are you referring to specifically? Our own physiology is what is setting up the hunger and neurons in our brains are part of that same physiology. The decision for pizza might have been as a result of our physiology requiring the chemical nutrients available in mushrooms and pepperoni as opposed to onions and lettuce.

You still do not understand the question.
If we consciously and freely make a decision, it is because we are able to force our brains to behave in a certain way. What mechanism allows us to control our brain's physiology in the manner necessary to make a decision?

I think you are basically setting up the question in such a way that free will is an impossibility. Unless, of course, our thoughts come from something outside the physical universe.

Would you consider it free will if our choices cannot always be predetermined because sometimes those neurons fire in a random, unpredictable way?

Whenever there is a superficial view of scientific disciplines the usual suspects are those with an agenda of some sort.

 

[BreezeWood]

Not sure how this answers my question...?

-Physiology behaves as it does because of biology,
the above along with the other summations are inaccurate irregardless the inaccurate
conclusion ...

That which you quoted above is, indeed, absolutely true. Not sure what point you think you're making.

Hunger is not a physical attribute itself and is distinct from the physiology that requires its resolution that is not resolved by a biological solution but extraneously from all of the above - the mechanism is not the organism.

OK... and so, you answer to the question is...?

physiology does not "behave" ...


the response mechanism is not mechanical but behavioral derived from emotional reactions not associated by the physiology.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No one is arguing that each of those individual statements are incorrect.

So you DO agree that:
EVERY phyisological process depends on the biological processes found within it.
EVERY biological process depeds on the chemical processes found within it.
EVERY chemical proccess depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
And so:
EVERY physiological process depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
Very good.

If you want a detailed description of the actual neurobiological process Let me google that for you

While I appreciate your effort here, "go look it up" is not a valid response.
I therefore accept the fact that you do not have the capacity to soundly answer the question I asked.
Thank you.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Which "laws of physics" are you referring to specifically? Our own physiology is what is setting up the hunger and neurons in our brains are part of that same physiology. The decision for pizza might have been as a result of our physiology requiring the chemical nutrients available in mushrooms and pepperoni as opposed to onions and lettuce.

You still do not understand the question.
If we consciously and freely make a decision, it is because we are able to force our brains to behave in a certain way. What mechanism allows us to control our brain's physiology in the manner necessary to make a decision?

I think you are basically setting up the question in such a way that free will is an impossibility. Unless, of course, our thoughts come from something outside the physical universe.

On the contrary - the question assumes free will exixts.

The existence of free will necessitates that a person has the ability to control the processes within ghr brain used to make decisions, etc. I merely ask for the mechanism thru which a person esercises this control.

Would you consider it free will if our choices cannot always be predetermined because sometimes those neurons fire in a random, unpredictable way

Random and unpredictable are not the same thing; virtually nothing if anything at all, in the physical universe is random.
And in any event, free will necesistaes that the choices are deliberate and conscious, not unpredictable - so, no.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You still do not understand the question.
If we consciously and freely make a decision, it is because we are able to force our brains to behave in a certain way. What mechanism allows us to control our brain's physiology in the manner necessary to make a decision?

I think you are basically setting up the question in such a way that free will is an impossibility. Unless, of course, our thoughts come from something outside the physical universe.

Would you consider it free will if our choices cannot always be predetermined because sometimes those neurons fire in a random, unpredictable way?

Whenever there is a superficial view of scientific disciplines the usual suspects are those with an agenda of some sort.

Says he whose comprehension of the subject is apparently far less than superficial.

 

[dblack]

You still do not understand the question.
If we consciously and freely make a decision, it is because we are able to force our brains to behave in a certain way. What mechanism allows us to control our brain's physiology in the manner necessary to make a decision?

I think you are basically setting up the question in such a way that free will is an impossibility. Unless, of course, our thoughts come from something outside the physical universe.

On the contrary - the question assumes free will exixts.

The existence of free will necessitates that a person has the ability to control the processes within ghr brain used to make decisions, etc. I merely ask for the mechanism thru which a person esercises this control.

Would you consider it free will if our choices cannot always be predetermined because sometimes those neurons fire in a random, unpredictable way

Random and unpredictable are not the same thing

They're not? How are they different?

And in any event, free will necesistaes that the choices are deliberate and conscious, not unpredictable - so, no.

Right. That's the contradiction at the core of the popular (mis)conception of 'free will'.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Random and unpredictable are not the same thing

They're not? How are they different?

Unpredictable: You/we/I do not have the capacity to predict.
Random: Cannot be predicted.

 

[dblack]

Random and unpredictable are not the same thing

They're not? How are they different?

Unpredictable: You/we/I do not have the capacity to predict.
Random: Cannot be predicted.

So, in your view, unpredictable doesn't mean something is truly unpredictable, but just that a given observer doesn't have the capacity to predict it. Whereas 'random' means that no deterministic prediction could be made, no matter how much time and information an observer might have access to.

Alright, that seems a little weird to me, but we can roll with it for the purposes of the discussion. Thanks for clarifying.

So, if "free will necessitates that the choices are deliberate and conscious, not unpredictable", what does 'predictable' mean in this context? Does it mean that choices are caused by anything? Or not?

 

[M14 Shooter]

They're not? How are they different?

Unpredictable: You/we/I do not have the capacity to predict.
Random: Cannot be predicted.

So, if "free will necessitates that the choices are deliberate and conscious, not unpredictable", what does 'predictable' mean in this context? Does it mean that choices are caused by anything? Or not?

In the context of the statement....
People arrive at their choices thru free will by a process of thought, from the time the choice presents to the time the choice is exercised - the process is controlled and willfull throughout, as opposed to unpredictable/random. Note that this does not preclude people from making strange/unusual choices.

 

[dblack]

Unpredictable: You/we/I do not have the capacity to predict.
Random: Cannot be predicted.

So, if "free will necessitates that the choices are deliberate and conscious, not unpredictable", what does 'predictable' mean in this context? Does it mean that choices are caused by anything? Or not?

In the context of the statement....
People arrive at their choices thru free will by a process of thought, from the time the choice presents to the time the choice is exercised - the process is controlled and willfull throughout, as opposed to unpredictable/random. Note that this does not preclude people from making strange/unusual choices.

Sure. My computer makes 'strange' choices all the time. And, from my perspective, it's often quite unpredictable. But its functions are all based on deterministic physics. If you're saying that human thoughts aren't truly unpredictable (random), but simply unpredictable from our perspective, how is that any different?

 

[M14 Shooter]

So, if "free will necessitates that the choices are deliberate and conscious, not unpredictable", what does 'predictable' mean in this context? Does it mean that choices are caused by anything? Or not?

In the context of the statement....
People arrive at their choices thru free will by a process of thought, from the time the choice presents to the time the choice is exercised - the process is controlled and willfull throughout, as opposed to unpredictable/random. Note that this does not preclude people from making strange/unusual choices.

Sure. My computer makes 'strange' choices all the time. And, from my perspective, it's often quite unpredictable. But its functions are all based on deterministic physics. If you're saying that human thoughts aren't truly unpredictable (random), but simply unpredictable from our perspective, how is that any different?

Your computer doesn't intentionally choose. People do.

 

[Derideo_Te]

No one is arguing that each of those individual statements are incorrect.

So you DO agree that:
EVERY phyisological process depends on the biological processes found within it.
EVERY biological process depeds on the chemical processes found within it.
EVERY chemical proccess depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
And so:
EVERY physiological process depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
Very good.

If you want a detailed description of the actual neurobiological process Let me google that for you

While I appreciate your effort here, "go look it up" is not a valid response.
I therefore accept the fact that you do not have the capacity to soundly answer the question I asked.
Thank you.

Did you miss the hyperlink? An artificial hip can result in a "BIOMECHANICAL REACTION". There is nothing in the brain functions that equate to your fictitious "BIOMECHANICAL REACTION". The shortcomings you are addressing must be visible in your mirror. Have a nice day.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No one is arguing that each of those individual statements are incorrect.

So you DO agree that:
EVERY phyisological process depends on the biological processes found within it.
EVERY biological process depeds on the chemical processes found within it.
EVERY chemical proccess depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
And so:
EVERY physiological process depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
Very good.

If you want a detailed description of the actual neurobiological process Let me google that for you

While I appreciate your effort here, "go look it up" is not a valid response.
I therefore accept the fact that you do not have the capacity to soundly answer the question I asked.
Thank you.

Did you miss the hyperlink?

As I said:
"Go look it up " is not a valid response.
I understand that you recognize you cannot carry your end of the conversation and therefore must retreat. Thank you.

 

[dblack]

In the context of the statement....
People arrive at their choices thru free will by a process of thought, from the time the choice presents to the time the choice is exercised - the process is controlled and willfull throughout, as opposed to unpredictable/random. Note that this does not preclude people from making strange/unusual choices.

Sure. My computer makes 'strange' choices all the time. And, from my perspective, it's often quite unpredictable. But its functions are all based on deterministic physics. If you're saying that human thoughts aren't truly unpredictable (random), but simply unpredictable from our perspective, how is that any different?

Your computer doesn't intentionally choose. People do.

Seems you're missing my point. You're saying that true randomness isn't required for free will, that choices only need to be unpredictable for our perspective. That would indicate that from some other perspective (eg an all-knowing being) they would be predictable. But that seems to put you back in the same place where you have 'predetermined' actions, right?

 

[Derideo_Te]

So you DO agree that:
EVERY phyisological process depends on the biological processes found within it.
EVERY biological process depeds on the chemical processes found within it.
EVERY chemical proccess depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
And so:
EVERY physiological process depends on the physical laws that govern the exchange of electrons, etc, between atoms.
Very good.


While I appreciate your effort here, "go look it up" is not a valid response.
I therefore accept the fact that you do not have the capacity to soundly answer the question I asked.
Thank you.

Did you miss the hyperlink?

As I said:
"Go look it up " is not a valid response.
I understand that you recognize you cannot carry your end of the conversation and therefore must retreat. Thank you.

Since that was not my response you must be one who is conceding defeat. Not surprising since you probably don't understand what was provided in the hyperlink in my response. Neurobiology is probably one of the most difficult and complex of all of the medical sciences to comprehend.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Did you miss the hyperlink?

As I said:
"Go look it up " is not a valid response.
I understand that you recognize you cannot carry your end of the conversation and therefore must retreat. Thank you.

Since that was not my response....

Any time someone simply posts a rouce - or better yet, a search result - rather than post the information that directly addresses the issue, they have essentially responded with "look it up".
Thus, your concession is duly noted. Run along now.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Sure. My computer makes 'strange' choices all the time. And, from my perspective, it's often quite unpredictable. But its functions are all based on deterministic physics. If you're saying that human thoughts aren't truly unpredictable (random), but simply unpredictable from our perspective, how is that any different?

Your computer doesn't intentionally choose. People do.

Seems you're missing my point. You're saying that true randomness isn't required for free will, that choices only need to be unpredictable for our perspective.

Not exactly.
The question was asked about neurons fire in a random, unpredictable way and if that is why our choices cannot be predetermined. My response was that, in exercising free will, out choices are dliberate, not random, and so randomness does not enter into it.

That would indicate that from some other perspective (eg an all-knowing being) they would be predictable.

Ah. That God knows what choice we will make does not necessiate that we did not make that choice thru an exercise of free will.