Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Shusha]

Joel, can you PLEASE come up with some original content beyond the same over-and-over again posting of the same line? I'm begging you, son.

The conflict is SO much deeper and more complex than this. Give it some respect.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, Shusha, et al,

Paul: Oh this is so unfair. You have three question here.

Q#1: Can Palestine sign a treaty with Israel? Yes or no?

Q#2: Is it possible for Palestine to enter into an international agreement with another sovereign State? Yes or no?

Q#3: Can that treaty delineate borders between their two States? Yes or no?

Good questions. Why don't you look that up and report what you find?

(COMMENT)

I would like to answer these in reverse order. But first, what is a Treaty?

Reference: Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties 23 May 1969

√ ANS X: For the purposes of the present Convention:

• “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation; (Page #3 of the Convention

Are the Oslo Accords a Treaty? Yes They are international agreements concluded between States.
​

√ ANS to Q#3: Can that treaty delineate borders between their two States? Yes

• OH, Hell Yes. As an example: See the
TO COMPLETE THE INTERNATIONAL BOUNDARY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA
AND TO MAINTAIN THE DEMARCATION OF THAT BOUNDARY​

√ ANS to Q#2: Is it possible for Palestine to enter into an international agreement with another sovereign State? Yes

• See the PLO --- State of Palestine UN Web Page that list all the various treaties and agreement it has already signed without objection.​

√ ANS to Q#1: Can Palestine sign a treaty with Israel? YES!

• In the Case of Palestine and Israel, any agreement they sign must be free of any coercion. In the example of the OSLO Accords, several witnesses signed which can verify that the agreement was not coerced:

Bjørn Tore GODAL The Kingdom of Norway
Andrei V. KOZYREV The Russian Federation
Amre MOUSSA The Arab Republic of Egypt
Hussein IBN TALAL The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan
Felipe GONZALEZ The European Union

I thought that this warranted a little more of an explanation. Remember, at the conclusion of wars and the end of hostilities, the defeated parties are most often at a disadvantage. So, I thought that this passage from the ICRC Expert Meeting on the Occupation and Other Forms of Administration of Foreign Territory (2012).​

Taking the opportunity to comment on this very point, a large majority of the experts stressed that IHL and occupation law in particular did not constitute a self-contained regime and did not provide any criteria for evaluating consent. The experts said that the issue of consent should be interpreted in the light of current public international law, in particular by reference to the law of treaties, discarding a specific interpretation of the notion of consent for the purposes of occupation law. In this regard, it was noted that Article 52 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties states that a treaty was void only when a State had been coerced by the threat or use of force in violation of the principles of international law embodied in the UN Charter. Consequently, not every pressure or every threat or use of force would induce coerced consent. In others words, the threat or use of force in accordance with the UN Charter, resulting in a State consenting to the presence of foreign forces, could not lead to the application of occupation law.​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[JoelT1]

THANK YOU! (You mean like Oslo?) Can we get ON with it then?

Oslo is not a valid treaty.

Odd little catch-22 you have set up there. Palestine can be divided as long as there is a treaty which Palestine agrees to. But any treaty which Palestine agrees to is not valid.

You need to read up on occupation and treaty law.

You need to read a history book. Palestine was a Roman name for ancient Israel, later, Britain’s name for the British Mandate which ceased to exist in 1948 with Israeli statehood

Palestine is not Arab in origin In fact, there’s no letter p in Arabic

Thank you Mr. BS Israeli talking points.

This eminent historian does not refer to “palestine” because it was an illegitimate Roman name for the indigenous Jews’ land

 

[P F Tinmore]

• “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation; (Page #3 of the Convention

That is the rub with Oslo. It was devoid of any reference to international law. If an agreement calls for or allows the violation of international law, it is outside the legitimate framework of a valid agreement.

 

[Shusha]

• “treaty” means an international agreement concluded between States in written form and governed by international law, whether embodied in a single instrument or in two or more related instruments and whatever its particular designation; (Page #3 of the Convention

That is the rub with Oslo. It was devoid of any reference to international law. If an agreement calls for or allows the violation of international law, it is outside the legitimate framework of a valid agreement.

Sure. An agreement which contracts a murder in exchange for compensation is not a valid contract and can not be upheld in law because the contract itself calls for a violation of law. I hear what you are saying.

BUT

What international law is violated in Oslo?

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[JoelT1]

Who are the palestinians? Nobody really knows...

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[JoelT1]

Arabs laugh: When were there palestinians?

 

[Shusha]

Oh come on. What are you trying to say here?

That security measures which prevent loss of life are illegal or immoral? Seriously?

 

[JoelT1]

No history of “palestinians”

History of the Jewish People The Hebrew Bible | The Story of the Jews | PBS

 

[Ventura77]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ Sixties Fan, et al,

Yeah, this is something that most Commissioners for Human Rights ignore. Rarely, if ever, do you see the Reports of Inquiry conducted as a Palestinian detention facility.

Hamas Says ‘No’ to Info on Missing Israelis in Exchange for Rescue Access | The Jewish Press - JewishPress.com | Steve | 14 Heshvan 5778 – November 3, 2017 | JewishPress.com

(COMMENT)

Relative to the Arab Palestinians, this is par for the course.

Most Respectfully,
R

Gotta tell ya...there are very few examples that capture excruciating irony more than two Israeli defenders slandering the Palestinians...this is kind of like the Gestapo whining about poor table manners...

 

[Ventura77]

THIS IS AN ABSURD, EVEN MORONIC CLAIM TO THE EXTENT THAT DNA ANALYSIS CLEARLY ISOLATES KHAZAR DNA, AND DETERMINES THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF JEWS ARE DIRECT DESCENDANTS...CLEARLY YOU DON'T BEGIN TO COMPREHEND ELIAK'S EVIDENCE...LOL


2. HERE YET AGAIN THE POINT ELUDES YOU: FALSE CLAIMS OF DIRECT LINEAGE WITH THE ANCIENT SEMITIC JEWS WERE PROVEN FALSE BY ELIAK'S DNA ANALYSIS...

3. NO ACTUALLY IT DID NOT, BECAUSE NO SUCH LAW OR PUTATIVE RIGHT EXISTED...TRY PROVING THIS STATEMENT WITH A SHRED OF DOCUMENTATION...YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU SPOUT...

The screaming doesn't do anything to improve your theories , nor does it suddenly turn lies into truths.

Eliak could not have "isolated" Khazar DNA because there is no group of people surviving today who can be definitively linked to the Khazars of a thousand years ago. And the study does not claim nor prove that the "vast majority" of Ashkenazis are descended from Khazars. You are presenting false information.

IF, however, you wish to use DNA as the determining factor for rights -- then it is incumbent upon you to apply that equally to ALL peoples who wish to have rights. And that means we need to start testing the Arab Palestinians to see if they have enough of the "correct" DNA to have rights to the land. If you are going to suggest criteria for rights -- then you need to apply it equally.

No such law or right exists? For self-determination of a people? Really? So, the Arab Palestinians have no such right either. Neither do the Catalans. Nor the First Nations. Nor any other minority. Where does THAT leave us in terms a solution?

Pray tell us how someone can 'scream' on a inaudible venue??? Who would know more about 'lies' than you dear? Please disprove Elhaik's evidence Shush...the argument you post is so ridiculously stupid that it begs raucous laughter...instead of saying "You are presenting false information." PROVE IT. The Arab/Palestinians have rights derived from their tenure in Palestine, does this info penetrate that dense grey matter yet? What do you imagine the UN charter refers to when it swears fealty to the "property right of native peoples????" The Arab property right derive from tenure...by contrast the fictive claims of the Zio-trash have zero legal validity...any questions?

 

[Ventura77]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ Ventura77, et al,

Yeah yeah yeah, What particular crime by statute is IIsrael in violation?

Once again you are completely in error...Israel does not have 'territorial integrity' to the obvious extent that the state is a criminal occupier...

(COMMENT)

If Israel has no "territorial Integrity," (which would be great --- but damn incorrect) then that is all the better. I F Israel is contained holey with the territory formerly under the Mandate, T H E N the conflict between the Israelis and the Arab Palestinians takes on the complexion of a NIAC (Civil War) which by definition is a "Domestic Issues" (contained entirely in one jurisdiction).

Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.

But, the territorial integrity, at least as the West Bank and Gaza Strip Hostile Arab Palestinians are concerned are established by Treaty:

√ Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the State of Israel (the "Parties")

View attachment 158472
​

√ Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel (the "Parties)

View attachment 158476
​

※ Special Note of applicability: Article V: Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements

Transitional period and permanent status negotiations:
1. The five-year transitional period will begin upon the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area.

2. Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than the beginning of the third year of the interim period, between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian people's representatives.

3. It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and co-operation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.

4. The two parties agree that the outcome of the permanent status negotiations should not be prejudiced or pre-empted by agreements reached for the interim period.
​

you play the same blame game that is consciously wound through the spools of Zionist propaganda...to refer to the ridiculously unbalanced resistance of the Palestinians as 'terrorism' and the actions of Israel as legitimate is essentially to flip the roles of victims and aggressors.

(COMMENT)

Balanced -- Unbalanced makes no difference. Tactically speaking, I don't know what that means. What I do know is that since the establishment of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) historically there has been a escalating pattern of antisocial and criminal behavior perpetrated by the Palestinians --- premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against soft targets by subnational groups or by small cells of covert operators that engage in indiscriminate rocket launchings, psychopathic attacks on the defenseless, hijackings and skyjackings, kidnappings and murders, bombings, arson, and --- with growth in the expanding menu of attack options..

Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) Jihadist, Fedayeen Operators, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamist, and other Asymmetric fighters out to commit a level of violence in a coercive manner to achieve objectives that they were unable to achieve through peaceful means.

• Produce widesrpead fear
• Obtain worldwide, national, or local recognition for their cause by attracting the attention of the media
• Harass, weaken, or embarrass government security forces so that the the government overreacts and appears repressive
• Steal or extort money and equipment, especially weapons and ammunition vital to the operation of their group
• Destroy facilities or disrupt lines of communication in order to create doubt that the government can provide for and protect its citizens
• Discourage foreign investments, tourism, or assistance programs that can affect the target country's economy and support of the government in power
• Influence government decisions, legislation, or other critical decisions
• Free prisoners
• Satisfy vengeance

The Jews continue to brazenly steal Palestinian lands and build networks of illegal Jewish settlements---thereby deliberately inciting violence and the laughable claim that 'we Jews are under attack by Arab terrorists'...this argument will invariably go back to the documented public statements of leading 20th century Zionists, who were quite frank in their intent and its predicted consequences...

(COMMENT)

Are you absolutely sure that Israel is not operating withing the framework of the agreement. And if Israel was coloring outside the lines, would it have not been in the best interest of the HoAP to work through the Dispute Resolution Process? But the record show that the PLO did not bring this to the Dispute Process even once in all this time.

Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

Chapter 2, Article XI 3c, Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip: "Area C" means areas of the West Bank outside Areas A and B, which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction in accordance with this Agreement.

Chapter 2, Article XII 5: " For the purpose of this Agreement, "the Settlements" means, in the West Bank - the settlements in Area C; and in the Gaza Strip - the Gush Katif and Erez settlement areas, as well as the other settlements in the Gaza Strip, as shown on attached map No. 2."
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocky...I keep repeating the same stipulations which obliterate your circular argument...please familiarize yourself with the public statements of David Ben Gurion...Weitzman...Begin...Dayan...Rabin...Jabotinsky...etc

 

[P F Tinmore]

 

[Shusha]

Please disprove Elhaik's evidence Shush...the argument you post is so ridiculously stupid that it begs raucous laughter...instead of saying "You are presenting false information." PROVE IT.

Okay. You DO know what DNA and genome study is, don't you? You know that the only thing it can possibly do is compare one population to another and see what commonalities they have, right? And you know that in order to compare groups of people -- there needs to be, well, you know, groups to compare. The claim you are supporting says that there has been a comparison of Ashkenazi Jews to Khazars and they are found to be similar. Here's the problem -- THERE ARE NO KHAZARS TO COMPARE TO. There is no way to make a comparison because there are no surviving, definitive group of Khazars with which to make a comparison. Therefore any correlation built between the Ashkenazi Jews and the Khazars is unfounded.

The Arab/Palestinians have rights derived from their tenure in Palestine, does this info penetrate that dense grey matter yet?

Not arguing that. I consistently support the rights of Arab Palestinians due to their long tenure in the territory.

...by contrast the fictive claims of the Zio-trash have zero legal validity...

The Jewish people also have a long tenure in the territory. Nearly four thousand years worth. Longer, in point of fact, than the Arabs. So why wouldn't the Jewish people ALSO have rights?

Is it because they were forcibly removed? Is it because there are no "real" Jews left? Why would the Jewish people not ALSO have rights?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ Ventura77, et al,

And again, your explanation is a stream of names that relate to a conflict a half century ago. A stream of names with no context.

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ Ventura77, et al,

Yeah yeah yeah, What particular crime by statute is IIsrael in violation?

Once again you are completely in error...Israel does not have 'territorial integrity' to the obvious extent that the state is a criminal occupier...

(COMMENT)

If Israel has no "territorial Integrity," (which would be great --- but damn incorrect) then that is all the better. I F Israel is contained holey with the territory formerly under the Mandate, T H E N the conflict between the Israelis and the Arab Palestinians takes on the complexion of a NIAC (Civil War) which by definition is a "Domestic Issues" (contained entirely in one jurisdiction).

Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.

But, the territorial integrity, at least as the West Bank and Gaza Strip Hostile Arab Palestinians are concerned are established by Treaty:

√ Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the State of Israel (the "Parties")

View attachment 158472
​

√ Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel (the "Parties)

View attachment 158476
​

※ Special Note of applicability: Article V: Declaration of Principles on Interim Self-Government Arrangements

Transitional period and permanent status negotiations:
1. The five-year transitional period will begin upon the withdrawal from the Gaza Strip and Jericho area.

2. Permanent status negotiations will commence as soon as possible, but not later than the beginning of the third year of the interim period, between the Government of Israel and the Palestinian people's representatives.

3. It is understood that these negotiations shall cover remaining issues, including: Jerusalem, refugees, settlements, security arrangements, borders, relations and co-operation with other neighbours, and other issues of common interest.

4. The two parties agree that the outcome of the permanent status negotiations should not be prejudiced or pre-empted by agreements reached for the interim period.
​

you play the same blame game that is consciously wound through the spools of Zionist propaganda...to refer to the ridiculously unbalanced resistance of the Palestinians as 'terrorism' and the actions of Israel as legitimate is essentially to flip the roles of victims and aggressors.

(COMMENT)

Balanced -- Unbalanced makes no difference. Tactically speaking, I don't know what that means. What I do know is that since the establishment of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) historically there has been a escalating pattern of antisocial and criminal behavior perpetrated by the Palestinians --- premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against soft targets by subnational groups or by small cells of covert operators that engage in indiscriminate rocket launchings, psychopathic attacks on the defenseless, hijackings and skyjackings, kidnappings and murders, bombings, arson, and --- with growth in the expanding menu of attack options..

Hostile Arab Palestinians (HoAP) Jihadist, Fedayeen Operators, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamist, and other Asymmetric fighters out to commit a level of violence in a coercive manner to achieve objectives that they were unable to achieve through peaceful means.

• Produce widesrpead fear
• Obtain worldwide, national, or local recognition for their cause by attracting the attention of the media
• Harass, weaken, or embarrass government security forces so that the the government overreacts and appears repressive
• Steal or extort money and equipment, especially weapons and ammunition vital to the operation of their group
• Destroy facilities or disrupt lines of communication in order to create doubt that the government can provide for and protect its citizens
• Discourage foreign investments, tourism, or assistance programs that can affect the target country's economy and support of the government in power
• Influence government decisions, legislation, or other critical decisions
• Free prisoners
• Satisfy vengeance

The Jews continue to brazenly steal Palestinian lands and build networks of illegal Jewish settlements---thereby deliberately inciting violence and the laughable claim that 'we Jews are under attack by Arab terrorists'...this argument will invariably go back to the documented public statements of leading 20th century Zionists, who were quite frank in their intent and its predicted consequences...

(COMMENT)

Are you absolutely sure that Israel is not operating withing the framework of the agreement. And if Israel was coloring outside the lines, would it have not been in the best interest of the HoAP to work through the Dispute Resolution Process? But the record show that the PLO did not bring this to the Dispute Process even once in all this time.

Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip

Chapter 2, Article XI 3c, Israeli-Palestinian Interim Agreement on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip: "Area C" means areas of the West Bank outside Areas A and B, which, except for the issues that will be negotiated in the permanent status negotiations, will be gradually transferred to Palestinian jurisdiction in accordance with this Agreement.

Chapter 2, Article XII 5: " For the purpose of this Agreement, "the Settlements" means, in the West Bank - the settlements in Area C; and in the Gaza Strip - the Gush Katif and Erez settlement areas, as well as the other settlements in the Gaza Strip, as shown on attached map No. 2."
​

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocky...I keep repeating the same stipulations which obliterate your circular argument...please familiarize yourself with the public statements of David Ben Gurion...Weitzman...Begin...Dayan...Rabin...Jabotinsky...etc

(COMMENT)

Public Statements of Men not a single one of which is still alive and not a single one of which has been in public office or made an significant public statement in ≈ three decades or more. Yes, anyone can go to www.brainyquote.com and get old political quotes. But old political quotes are not the same as current policy.

• Ze'ev Jabotinsky Lived: Oct 18, 1880 - Aug 04, 1940 (age 59) ---------- DIED 77 Years Ago
• Chaim Azriel Weizmann Lived: Nov 27, 1874 - Nov 09, 1952 (age 77) - DIED 65 Years Ago
• David Ben-Gurion Lived: Oct 16, 1886 - Dec 01, 1973 (age 87) -------- DIED 44 Years Ago
• Moshe Dayan Lived: May 20, 1915 - Oct 16, 1981 (age 66) -------------- DIED 36 Years Ago
• Menachem Begin Lived: Aug 16, 1913 - Mar 09, 1992 (age 78) --------- DIED 25 Years Ago
• Yitzhak Rabin Lived: Mar 01, 1922 - Nov 04, 1995 (age 73) -------------- DIED 22 Years Ago
​

Not a single one of these leaders represents today's 21st Century Strategic Approach to the basic issues that persist as an item for permanent negotiation status.

The one fragment of the 21st Century baseline of today is paraphrased in the press article ‘We Do Not Apologize for Killing Terrorists’ By JNi.Media – October 31, 2017:

"We must not apologize for our success in eliminating terrorists,” Bennett Tweeted,
“These are terrorists who were digging a hellish tunnel into Israeli territory,
designed to kill Israeli women and children.”
----------------------------------------------------------- Minister of Education Naftali Bennett ​

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

But, the territorial integrity, at least as the West Bank and Gaza Strip Hostile Arab Palestinians are concerned are established by Treaty:

√ Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan and the State of Israel (the "Parties")

√ Arab Republic of Egypt and the State of Israel (the "Parties)

4. The road Taba-Qouseima-Auja shall not be employed by any military forces whatsoever for the purpose of entering Palestine.
The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949
---------------------
(d) In the sector from a point on the Dead Sea (MR 1925-0958) to the southernmost tip of Palestine, the Armistice Demarcation Line shall be determined by existing military positions...
The Avalon Project : Jordanian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, April 3, 1949

So, how does Israel claim borders on territory that the UN calls Palestine?