Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

This is entirely incorrect. And for that era, it was not unusual at all. The practices that followed the Great War (WWI) were in accordance with the Treaty of Westphalia. And much of the international practices of the modern-day owe their origins to the Treaty of Westphalia. It was the same practices that gave the US former Spanish holdings (Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the transferred sovereignty of the Philippines to the United States).

• Peace of Westphalia, European settlements of 1648, which brought to an end the Eighty Years’ War between Spain and the Dutch and the German phase of the Thirty Years’ War. The peace was negotiated, from 1644, in the Westphalian towns of Münster and Osnabrück. The Spanish-Dutch treaty was signed on January 30, 1648. The treaty of October 24, 1648, comprehended the Holy Roman emperor Ferdinand III, the other German princes, France, and Sweden. England, Poland, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire were the only European powers that were not represented at the two assemblies. Some scholars of international relations credit the treaties with providing the foundation of the modern state system and articulating the concept of territorial sovereignty.

Over the course of the last half-century, there has been much misinformation about what this and that Treaty had to say; and the application of successor state protocols. And these teardrops of misinformation have grown into a monster.

This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states. Upon the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, these new states came into being. As successor states, they had rights and obligations under the treaty and international law. Notably the rule of state succession in regard to nationality and citizenship. The land and the people were transferred to the respective new state.

(COMMENT)

The Lausanne Treaty was signed on 24 July 1923 by the British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the "Serbo-Croat-Slovene" State on one part and Turkey on the other. NO Middle Eastern State or Nation, Past or Present, signed the Treaty of Lausanne. AND, the Allied Powers determined the carve-outs for the emerging states in the Middle East, not the Treaty. Article 3 of the Treaty of Lausanne spoke to "Syria" and "Iraq." But you will note that the Treaty of Lausanne defaults to the Franco-Turkish Agreement of the 20th October 1921.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't see the relevance to my post.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

This is entirely incorrect. And for that era, it was not unusual at all. The practices that followed the Great War (WWI) were in accordance with the Treaty of Westphalia. And much of the international practices of the modern-day owe their origins to the Treaty of Westphalia. It was the same practices that gave the US former Spanish holdings (Cuba, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the transferred sovereignty of the Philippines to the United States).

• Peace of Westphalia, European settlements of 1648, which brought to an end the Eighty Years’ War between Spain and the Dutch and the German phase of the Thirty Years’ War. The peace was negotiated, from 1644, in the Westphalian towns of Münster and Osnabrück. The Spanish-Dutch treaty was signed on January 30, 1648. The treaty of October 24, 1648, comprehended the Holy Roman emperor Ferdinand III, the other German princes, France, and Sweden. England, Poland, Russia, and the Ottoman Empire were the only European powers that were not represented at the two assemblies. Some scholars of international relations credit the treaties with providing the foundation of the modern state system and articulating the concept of territorial sovereignty.

Over the course of the last half-century, there has been much misinformation about what this and that Treaty had to say; and the application of successor state protocols. And these teardrops of misinformation have grown into a monster.

This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states. Upon the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, these new states came into being. As successor states, they had rights and obligations under the treaty and international law. Notably the rule of state succession in regard to nationality and citizenship. The land and the people were transferred to the respective new state.

(COMMENT)

The Lausanne Treaty was signed on 24 July 1923 by the British Empire, France, Italy, Japan, Greece, Romania, and the "Serbo-Croat-Slovene" State on one part and Turkey on the other. NO Middle Eastern State or Nation, Past or Present, signed the Treaty of Lausanne. AND, the Allied Powers determined the carve-outs for the emerging states in the Middle East, not the Treaty. Article 3 of the Treaty of Lausanne spoke to "Syria" and "Iraq." But you will note that the Treaty of Lausanne defaults to the Franco-Turkish Agreement of the 20th October 1921.

Most Respectfully,
R

I don't see the relevance to my post.

You wouldn’t be able too.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Yeah,. I quoted your post, and answered it nearly sentence by sentence.

I don't see the relevance to my post.

(COMMENT)

• (YOU) "This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states."

✪ (ME) I explain why it is not "unsual."​

• (YOU) "Upon the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, these new states came into being. As successor states,"

✪ (ME) I explained why the signing of the treaty had nothing to do with the emergence of the new states.
✪ (ME) I explained why the new creations were NOT true successor states.​

• (YOU) "Notably the rule of state succession in regard to nationality and citizenship."

✪ (ME) I explained why the signing of the treaty (and Article 30) had nothing to do with an enforeable assignment of nationality and citizenship.
​

I hate it when you get direct answers, and then say they are irrelevant because its not what you want to hear. If I go into too much detail, you claim my answer is verbose. If I state bullet facts, you claim irrelevance. If you want more detail --- ask a specific question.

Finally, there is no mandatory "rule" for "state succession." The succession of states is a matter of recognition by other states and the acceptance by the "parties concerned."

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

• (YOU) "This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states."
✪ (ME) I explain why it is not "unsual."

How many other empires were carved into new states?

 

[P F Tinmore]

• (YOU) "Upon the signing of the Treaty of Lausanne, these new states came into being. As successor states,"
✪ (ME) I explained why the signing of the treaty had nothing to do with the emergence of the new states.
✪ (ME) I explained why the new creations were NOT true successor states.

You did?

 

[Hollie]

• (YOU) "This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states."
✪ (ME) I explain why it is not "unsual."

How many other empires were carved into new states?

Do the research and you may find them. Shirley you can troll through YouTube?

 

[P F Tinmore]

• (YOU) "Notably the rule of state succession in regard to nationality and citizenship."
✪ (ME) I explained why the signing of the treaty (and Article 30) had nothing to do with an enforeable assignment of nationality and citizenship.

You did?

 

[P F Tinmore]

• (YOU) "This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states."
✪ (ME) I explain why it is not "unsual."

How many other empires were carved into new states?

Do the research and you may find them. Shirley you can troll through YouTube?

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
※→ P F Tinmore, et al,

Well, Let's see.

• (YOU) "This is a little unusual because the Ottoman/Turkish empire was carved up into new states."
✪ (ME) I explain why it is not "unusual."

How many other empires were carved into new states?

(COMMENT)

The Umayyad Dynasty (AKA: First Muslim Dynasty) was once the Rulers over lands that would later become the Ottoman Empire; and then more. As did the Babylonian Empire.

Most Empires dissolve, much like the Roman Empire (how many states emerged, I don't know). In more recent times, both the British Empire and the USSR dissolved; and may not have reached their final form. Several Empires in the shadow of the Great War.

At the end of hostilities of the Great War, the Kingdom of Yugoslavia was established as a federation of states. But like other regions, it is still evolving going from the WWI Classic into what (I don't know how to count them), a half dozen republics and a couple of autonomous provinces.

Have we seen the last empire? I don't know. What I do know is that, even before the time of Moses and the Burning Bush, Empires have risen and fallen, and no two dissolved in the same way. In many respects, there is no such thing as the "usual" -- yet the concept that the "victors" form the post-War process has been around for thousands of years.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

The cracks between the different populations become more evident as time goes by. A conversation with an Israeli Arab quickly highlights this. So do discussions with many Arab residents of East Jerusalem, people who exhibit open reluctance to return to ‘PA’ control. Arabs of Ramallah have become unwilling to place their relative prosperity at risk for Hamas led Gaza. Beyond a dislike of Jews and Zionism, there is little ‘political or national bonding’ amongst many of these populations.

This is often missed by visitors to Palestinian towns. Walk through a neighborhood during times of conflict and look at the pictures of ‘martyrs’ in the streets. Walk down one street and you’ll see the image of a ‘martyr’, a terrorist who died killing or trying to kill Israelis. Turn into a different street and a different image appears. Palestinian streets are families, the images are members of their clans. The funeral procession will not venture into, nor be welcomed in, another clan’s street. They are often rivals. In reality it is surprising how numerous, deep and localised those divisions can be.

This is not a denial of modern Palestinian identity, it is merely history supported by verifiable observations. It has serious repercussions in the search for peace. Just which Palestinian group do you negotiate with? And how many people do they represent? Does a signature by one group mean anything, when rival groups will always reject some of the terms?

In any event, for our group this meant that as Gaza marched to the violent tune of Hamas, we could head towards the calm atmosphere of ‘Area A’. The region under direct control of the Palestinian Authority.

(full article online)

Beyond the great divide, a trip inside the Palestinian areas

 

[Sixties Fan]

Italians trained to fight Israel in Palestinian refugee camps, former Arafat adviser says

 

[Sixties Fan]

Jordan is an ally of the United States. A March 2018 "Fact Sheet" issued by the State Department and entitled "U.S. Security Cooperation With Jordan" calls the Hashemite Kingdom
a critical and close partner for the United States in the Middle East with which we share a number of important strategic goals. Jordan has been a staunch U.S. ally in the global effort to defeat the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria (ISIS) and other terrorist groups. Jordan is also a close partner with the United States on a range of diplomatic and security challenges throughout the region, among them the crisis in Syria, combating violent extremism, and advancing Middle East peace. Jordan’s stability and security is a priority for the United States, which has provided assistance to Jordan... Then there's also this:

Jordan has treaty obligations to the US and seeks - successfully so far - to avoid them in the specific case of the murderer of Jewish children and Israeli citizens even as it agrees to extradite other Jordanian felons whose victims weren't Jews or Israelis.

And this:

Jordan provides a safe haven for one of the highest-profile individual propagandists for Hamas' brand of Islamist terror currently active.

If Jordan respects its US ally, it ought to be acting very differently and the US ought to be letting the Jordanian regime know what is expected of it. If Tamimi is a test, up until now there can be little doubt the jihadists are ahead.

(full article online)

This Ongoing War: A Blog: 01-Jun-18: On watching our child's killer

 

[Sixties Fan]

by Nan Jacques Zilberdik



When Palestinians tune in to the official PA radio station, The Voice of Palestine, they hear songs encouraging them to seek Martyrdom-death and to sacrifice themselves for Jerusalem, the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and “Palestine.” Catchy lyrics pass on the message that Palestinians are “not afraid of death,” and teach them that already in its mother’s womb, the fetus is “a proud Martyr” who has “Palestine etched on the heart”:

Click to view video

“Our Martyrs are convoys and our bones are mountains
They don’t surrender to the lowly
We aren't deterred by imprisonment
Palestine is etched on the heart of the fetus

A proud Martyr in his mother’s womb

And the Arab state will remain ours - Arab, Arab PalestineWe [hold] the rifles to our chests and our eyes are raised to you
Our homes are trenches and our souls are the sacrifice for youO Jerusalem, you will not remain stolen.”
[“The First Direction of Prayer” by Syrian singer Assala Nasri,
Official PA radio station The Voice of Palestine, Feb. 3, 2018]



The Fatah-run TV station Awdah broadcast the music video of this song too (video above):

[Fatah-run Awdah TV, May 15, 2018]



Discussing PA media’s responsibilities, Director General of The Voice of Palestine Bassam Daghlas has stated that PA radio works diligently to “defend Jerusalem and Palestine” - in cooperation with the PA Ministry of Information:



“We are working day and night to convey the facts to the world, defend Jerusalem, and defend our Palestinian cause and Palestine. We are cooperating with the brothers in the [PA] Ministry of Information... in uniting the Palestinian voice over the radio waves, the voice of the Palestinian people."
[Official PA TV, Dec. 12, 2017

(full article online)

“The fetus, a proud Martyr in his mother’s womb” – Songs on official PA radio - PMW Bulletins

 

[Sixties Fan]

This is a story that ought to have major exposure across the world. However, the media is simply NOT reporting this incident.

The media is probably NOT reporting this because it shows the true situation of Christians in Bethlehem. A Priest in a Bethlehem Church was stabbed by a Muslim after asking him to stop sexually harassing a Christian pilgram lady. Thankfully it was caught on a security camera so it can’t be denied.

(vide video online)

Priest Stabbed by Muslim in Bethlehem Caught on Security Camera

 

[Mindful]

Lies, lies, lies.... Or even worth - half truth lies.

 

[Sixties Fan]

The Palestinian Coalition for Economic, Social and Cultural Rights sounds like one of the scores of NGOs set up in the territories just to attract European cash and bash Israel.

Its most recent press releases all are missing the word "Israel." Amazingly, they are blaming the PA for what every Palestinian (and few Westerners) know - that the government of Mahmoud Abbas has been systematically oppressing Gazans for well over a year now for political ends.



Last week it issued a statement saying "the Palestinian Authority has taken punitive measures against its employees in the Gaza Strip, which accounted for a 30% to 60% reduction of their salaries since April 2017, in the context of pressure on Hamas to resolve the administrative situation of the sector and enable the government to exercise its functions, These measures have affected all aspects of life in the sector, especially after imposing more penalties and wage cuts, and the transfer of a large number of employees to forced retirement, exacerbating the humanitarian crisis to the detriment of the citizens' decent living. "

(full article online)

Palestinians know Abbas is to blame for Gaza. When will the West wake up? ~ Elder Of Ziyon - Israel News

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ Another wasted life....for Allah.....for all Muslim conquered land ]

Defense officials said that Agbar entered Israel from the West Bank on a one-day permit with a group known as “Natural Peace Tours,” which is supposed to forge relationships between Palestinians and Israelis.

In December, he crossed the Green Line into Israel with the intention of carrying out an attack at the Dead Sea. However, when his taxi driver told him that few tourists were expected that day, he decided to turn back.

The indictment said that in March, Agbar determined that Tel Aviv would be a more suitable location to target Israelis. He subsequently began planning the attack by reaching out to Natural Peace Tours and studying the waterfront location using Google Maps.

He sharpened his belt buckle, transforming it into a makeshift knife that could pass through Israeli security checks.

(full article online)

Palestinian teen convicted of attempted murder in peace visit stabbing attack

 

[Sixties Fan]

[ The assailants are from Gaza? How did they get out from that "prison"? And "Berlin is our city now" !!! When did they buy it? How can they afford it when they are as poor as their PR constantly says? ]



The Israeli teen, 17 and identified only as Yonatan, told the Hebrew-language Israel Hayom newspaper that he and his two friends, also 17, were waiting for a train when he played Israeli singer Omer Adam’s song “Tel Aviv” on his phone.





A group of Arab men heard the Hebrew lyrics from the song and approached the three teens.

Yonatan said they shouted at him “Hebrew music? For 70 years you are murdering children. Berlin is our city now and here we don’t listen to fucking Jewish music.”

After pointing out that just as they can play Arabic music he can listen to Israeli music, Yonatan said, he and his friends moved away from the group but they were followed.

(full article online)

Israeli says he was assaulted in Berlin for listening to Hebrew song

 

[Sixties Fan]

Al Jazeera maintains that “the fifth day of June 1967 is a day the Arabs are still viewing as a remarkable day in their modern history, a day where the armies of three Arab countries could not stand up to the Zionist occupation army, met a terrible defeat, and let Israel occupy the Gaza Strip and the West Bank and the rest of the Jerusalem, as well as the Syrian Golan Heights and Sinai, to become the dominant force in the region, deepening the notion of their having an invincible army.”

“The defeat of the Arabs in the June 1967 war, which was followed by the death of Gamal Abdel Nasser in 1970, constituted the decisive blow that ended nationalism,” said Fawaz Gerges, a professor of international relations. “The Arabs have lived for years under the dreams of cultural glory and strength, but their defeat them within a few hours at the hands of the emerging Jewish state led to the collapse of the foundation myth of Arab nationalism, embarrassing their guardian – Egyptian leader Gamal Abdel Nasser, which led to dispelling the promise of a bright future.”

(full article online)

So Many Catastrophes, So Little Time: Nakba Day Is Over, Here Comes the Naksa

 

[Sixties Fan]

Nor has Hamas been an exception to this rule. Not only has its leadership been highly educated, but it has gone to great lengths to educate its followers, notably through the takeover of the Islamic University in Gaza and its transformation into a hothouse for indoctrinating generations of militants and terrorists. Hamas founder Sheikh Ahmed Yassin studied at the al-Azhar University in Cairo, probably the Islamic world’s most prestigious institution of higher religious learning, while his successor, Abdel Aziz Rantisi, was a physician, as is Hamas cofounder Mahmoud Zahar. The group’s current leader, Ismail Haniyeh, and Muhammad Def, head of Hamas’s military wing, are graduates of the Islamic University of Gaza, while Khaled Mashaal studied physics in Kuwait, where he resided until 1990. Hardly the products of deprivation and despair.

This propensity for violence among the educated and moneyed classes of Palestinian society was starkly reflected in the identity of the 156 men and eight women who detonated themselves in Israel’s towns and cities during the first five years of the “al-Aqsa Intifada,” murdering 525 people, the overwhelming majority of them civilians. A mere 9% of the perpetrators had only a basic education, while 22% were university graduates and 34% were high school graduates. Likewise, a comprehensive study of Hamas and Islamic Jihad suicide terrorists from the late 1980s to 2003 found that only 13% came from a poor background, compared with 32% of the Palestinian population in general. More than half of suicide bombers had entered further education compared with just 15% of the general population.

By contrast, successive public opinion polls among the Palestinian residents of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip during the 1990s revealed far stronger support for the nascent peace process with Israel, and opposition to terrorism, among the poorer and less educated parts of society – representing the vast majority of the population. Thus, for example, 82% of people with a low education supported the Interim Agreement of September 1995, providing for Israel’s withdrawal from the populated Palestinian areas of the West Bank, and 80% opposed terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians, compared to 55% and 65%, respectively, among university graduates.

In short, it is not socioeconomic despair but the total rejection of Israel’s right to exist, inculcated by the PLO and Hamas in their hapless West Bank and Gaza subjects over the past 25 years, which underlies the relentless anti-Israel violence emanating from these territories and its attendant economic stagnation and decline.

At the time of the September 1993 signing of the Israel-PLO Declaration of Principles, conditions in the territories were far better than in most Arab states – despite the steep economic decline caused by the intifada of 1987-93. But within six months of Arafat’s arrival in Gaza in July 1994, the standard of living in the Strip fell by 25%, and more than half the area’s residents claimed to have been happier under Israel. Even so, at the time Arafat launched his war of terrorism in September 2000, Palestinian income per capita was nearly double Syria’s, more than four times Yemen’s, and 10% higher than Jordan’s – one of the better-off Arab states. Only the oil-rich Gulf states and Lebanon were more affluent.

(full article online)

It’s Not the Economy, Stupid