Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Hollie]

There’s an opinion piece in ynet that looks at the Hamas / PIJ / Iran connections and where that may eventually lead. One of the statements is that Hamas must decide on loyalties and basically, where their alignment with Iran will lead.

It seems that Hamas has already announced their intentions. Their meetings with the Iranian Mullocrat-in-charge and their gushing praise for Iranian money and weapons makes it clear that they have separated themselves from their “Arab’ism” and the Sunni / Salafi mainstream. An attempt by Hamas to backtrack from the goals and ideology of Iran and PIJ could lead to a fierce and very bloody civil war with Hamas vs. Iran and their proxy army of PIJ.



Gaza's Hamas rulers must choose between Iran and their own people

It is likely that the confrontation between the two Gaza-based terror groups was about the force of those rocket attacks.

Hamas, it seemed, intended the rocket fire to target border line communities only, while Islamic Jihad demanded massive attacks be launched further afield, which could have caused a deterioration into all-out war.

Hence the Israeli security establishment's decision to put the center of the country, including Tel Aviv, on high alert.

While the Gaza rulers demanded their smaller partners adhere to their demands, Islamic Jihad opted to ignore them.

This was not a tactical disagreement. It was a massive rift that forced into the open a new-old factor which had become more and more dominant – Iran.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.

 

[Hollie]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.

Indeed, you’re confused about Arabs-Moslems having sovereign control of any territory.

 

[rylah]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.

Military control is merely a function of the executive branch of the sovereign government.

The source of legal sovereignty over Palestine, as stated in international law,
is solely with the Jewish Nation.

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?

 

[Hollie]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?

Indeed, what treaty granted the geographic area of “Palestine” (a Sanjak of the Ottoman Empire), to the Ottoman Turks?

 

[rylah]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?

The 1920 San Remo Resolution

"The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust... the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory [authority that] will be responsible for putting into effect the [Balfour] declaration... in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people."

Covenant of the League of Nations

Art.22 declares that it is "a sacred trust of civilization" to provide for the well-being and development of territories whose inhabitants are "not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world." Specifically formulated to create a Mandate to form a Jewish National Home in Palestine.

Comment:
Treaties have no statute of limitations, so their rights go on ad infinitum.
The Jewish Nation is the sole legal sovereign in Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

There is no such thing as a "right to sovereignty".

There IS a right to self-determination, a right which has been developing in international law over the past 60 years and is still being determined today. That right to self-determination, however, depends on the people seeking it to develop institutions which can bring that self-determination into reality.

The Jewish citizens of Palestine achieved self-determination in 1948. The Arab citizens of Palestine have yet to achieve it.

Yes, I know you are going to argue that the Jewish citizens of Palestine had help. Sure. But they were also willing to BE helped.

The Arab citizens of Palestine are still refusing to develop and are obstinately using violence to try to achieve the unachievable.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

You are not reading the meaning for sovereignty.

You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

You want there to be a difference. That does not mean there is a difference.

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?

(COMMENT)

I ask you to look at the Maps that were part of Armistice (on the left) and Peace Treaty (on the right). These mas are pictures of the actual map used in the documentation. They are authenticated, the Armistice in the upper left corner; and the Treaty Map in the lower right corner.

I had to take pictures of these at least four times to get them to fit in the forum. But I also have the map for the border along the The Gaza–Egypt border is the 12 kilometers (the Rafah Border Crossing segment) long border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. In both cases, the one for Egypt and the one with Jordan, the so-called Palestinian territories were included in the border of Israel. In the case of the West Bank, the entirety of the West Bank was encapsulated into the hands of Israel. It is only through the Oslo Accords do the Palestinians begin to become associated with the territory.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Shusha]

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel the Jewish people?

I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.

Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?

 

[Shusha]

With respect for the development of the territory for the self-determination of the peoples to whom it was established held existing rights (the Jewish people):

The Palestine Mandate text reads:

ART. 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.


It is absolutely clear that the peoples for whom the right to self-determination existed in Palestine were the Jewish people. It was the Jewish people who were to be assisted with the development of a national home (State) in the territory. This was based on an existing right. No other peoples were intended to take part in this development of self-determination. In fact, other peoples were mentioned, regardless of race or religion, in terms of protection of civil rights only.

 

[P F Tinmore]

With respect for the development of the territory for the self-determination of the peoples to whom it was established held existing rights (the Jewish people):

The Palestine Mandate text reads:

ART. 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.


It is absolutely clear that the peoples for whom the right to self-determination existed in Palestine were the Jewish people. It was the Jewish people who were to be assisted with the development of a national home (State) in the territory. This was based on an existing right. No other peoples were intended to take part in this development of self-determination. In fact, other peoples were mentioned, regardless of race or religion, in terms of protection of civil rights only.

Britain and the Zionists were both foreigners.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel the Jewish people?

I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.

Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?

I swear you ask this every week.

Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

With respect for the development of the territory for the self-determination of the peoples to whom it was established held existing rights (the Jewish people):

The Palestine Mandate text reads:

ART. 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.


It is absolutely clear that the peoples for whom the right to self-determination existed in Palestine were the Jewish people. It was the Jewish people who were to be assisted with the development of a national home (State) in the territory. This was based on an existing right. No other peoples were intended to take part in this development of self-determination. In fact, other peoples were mentioned, regardless of race or religion, in terms of protection of civil rights only.

Britain and the Zionists were both foreigners.

Like the Muslim invaders were foreigners?

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •

Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.

• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

(COMMENT)

All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."

View attachment 291413​

◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)

(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;

(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or

(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”​

Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)​

Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.


Most Respectfully,
R

◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?

Indeed, what treaty granted the geographic area of “Palestine” (a Sanjak of the Ottoman Empire), to the Ottoman Turks?

Irrelevant. There was no international law back then.

 

[ForeverYoung436]

With respect for the development of the territory for the self-determination of the peoples to whom it was established held existing rights (the Jewish people):

The Palestine Mandate text reads:

ART. 2.
The Mandatory shall be responsible for placing the country under such political, administrative and economic conditions as will secure the establishment of the Jewish national home, as laid down in the preamble, and the development of self-governing institutions, and also for safeguarding the civil and religious rights of all the inhabitants of Palestine, irrespective of race and religion.

ART. 4.
An appropriate Jewish agency shall be recognised as a public body for the purpose of advising and co-operating with the Administration of Palestine in such economic, social and other matters as may affect the establishment of the Jewish national home and the interests of the Jewish population in Palestine, and, subject always to the control of the Administration to assist and take part in the development of the country.

The Zionist organization, so long as its organization and constitution are in the opinion of the Mandatory appropriate, shall be recognised as such agency. It shall take steps in consultation with His Britannic Majesty's Government to secure the co-operation of all Jews who are willing to assist in the establishment of the Jewish national home.

ART. 6.
The Administration of Palestine, while ensuring that the rights and position of other sections of the population are not prejudiced, shall facilitate Jewish immigration under suitable conditions and shall encourage, in co-operation with the Jewish agency referred to in Article 4, close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not required for public purposes.


It is absolutely clear that the peoples for whom the right to self-determination existed in Palestine were the Jewish people. It was the Jewish people who were to be assisted with the development of a national home (State) in the territory. This was based on an existing right. No other peoples were intended to take part in this development of self-determination. In fact, other peoples were mentioned, regardless of race or religion, in terms of protection of civil rights only.

Britain and the Zionists were both foreigners.

You ask for treaties, she provides them, and then you raise objections. But these treaties still exist, whether you like them or not.

 

[P F Tinmore]

OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.

There is no such thing as a "right to sovereignty".

There IS a right to self-determination, a right which has been developing in international law over the past 60 years and is still being determined today. That right to self-determination, however, depends on the people seeking it to develop institutions which can bring that self-determination into reality.

The Jewish citizens of Palestine achieved self-determination in 1948. The Arab citizens of Palestine have yet to achieve it.

Yes, I know you are going to argue that the Jewish citizens of Palestine had help. Sure. But they were also willing to BE helped.

The Arab citizens of Palestine are still refusing to develop and are obstinately using violence to try to achieve the unachievable.

There is no such thing as a "right to sovereignty".

You get all of your information from Israel's bullshit playbook.

Recognizing​

that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

2. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​

 

[Shusha]

Britain and the Zionists were both foreigners.

The Jewish people are NOT foreigners in their own homeland. It is the historical, ancestral and religious home of the Jewish people. And it was recognized as such by the international community more than a hundred years ago.

And you are in no position to argue that people forcibly removed from their homes and homeland have no further collective rights to it.

 

[Shusha]

Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel the Jewish people?

I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.

Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?

I swear you ask this every week.

Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.

The only person dancing is you.

Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.