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OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.
There is no such thing as a "right to sovereignty".
There IS a right to self-determination, a right which has been developing in international law over the past 60 years and is still being determined today. That right to self-determination, however, depends on the people seeking it to develop institutions which can bring that self-determination into reality.
The Jewish citizens of Palestine achieved self-determination in 1948. The Arab citizens of Palestine have yet to achieve it.
Yes, I know you are going to argue that the Jewish citizens of Palestine had help. Sure. But they were also willing to BE helped.
The Arab citizens of Palestine are still refusing to develop and are obstinately using violence to try to achieve the unachievable.You get all of your information from Israel's bullshit playbook.There is no such thing as a "right to sovereignty".
Recognizing
that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,
Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,
Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,
Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,
1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:
(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;
(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;
2. Reaffirms also the inalienable right of the Palestinians to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted, and calls for their return;
UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237
You get all of your information from Israel's bullshit playbook.
Irrelevant. There was no international back then.RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
I'll give partial credit for that response: "The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty." What does that mean? (RHETORICAL)
• See a Referenced Legal Definition pertaining to: "Sovereignty" •
Many times you've pulled this response out of the air and state it as if it is somehow unique to the territory under discussion.
(COMMENT)OK, but neither occupations nor Mandates acquire sovereignty. The citizens of Palestine retained their right to sovereignty.• Between 1918 and 1920, the territories were under the Occupied Enemy Territory Administration (OETA).
• Between 1920 and 1948, the territories were under British Administration; territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applied.
All over the world, there are nations filled with citizens that exercise their right to effect "the full right and power of a governing body over itself."
◈ Sovereignty; Brierly rightly calls sovereignty a “much abused word.” J.L. Brierly, The Law of Nations 150 (5th ed. 1955). It has three primary senses: (SOURCE: Modern Legal Usage, 2 ed, Bryan A. Garner. Published by Oxford University Press, Inc., 198 Madison Avenue, New York, New York 10016)
(1) “supreme dominion, authority, or rule”;
(2) “the position, rank, or control of a supreme ruler, such as a monarch, or controlling power, such as a democratically formed government”; or
(3) “a territory under the rule of a sovereign, or existing as an independent state.”
Think in terms of Israel and its control in the territories. What part of the territories under the authority or rule of Israel? (RHETORICAL) I could list them:
◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)
Yes, and all the Arab Palestinians, inside these demarcations (supra), are within the territory under the the protection and Rule of Law (RoL) extended through Israel Sovereignty (including the Arab Palestinian right to sovereignty). And for the most part, the Arab Palestinians, within the demarcations, have enjoyed the Israeli RoL for the last half-century.
Most Respectfully,
RWhere are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)
Indeed, what treaty granted the geographic area of “Palestine” (a Sanjak of the Ottoman Empire), to the Ottoman Turks?
Deflection. Neither the armistice nor Oslo were land/border treaties.RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
You are not reading the meaning for sovereignty.
(COMMENT)You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.
You want there to be a difference. That does not mean there is a difference.
(COMMENT)Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)
I ask you to look at the Maps that were part of Armistice (on the left) and Peace Treaty (on the right). These mas are pictures of the actual map used in the documentation. They are authenticated, the Armistice in the upper left corner; and the Treaty Map in the lower right corner.
View attachment 291450 View attachment 291449
I had to take pictures of these at least four times to get them to fit in the forum. But I also have the map for the border along the The Gaza–Egypt border is the 12 kilometers (the Rafah Border Crossing segment) long border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. In both cases, the one for Egypt and the one with Jordan, the so-called Palestinian territories were included in the border of Israel. In the case of the West Bank, the entirety of the West Bank was encapsulated into the hands of Israel. It is only through the Oslo Accords do the Palestinians begin to become associated with the territory.
Most Respectfully,
R
No land/border treaties have ever been posted.Where are the treaties granting those territories toIsraelthe Jewish people?
I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.
Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.I swear you ask this every week.
The only person dancing is you.
Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.
View attachment 291495
No land/border treaties have ever been posted.Where are the treaties granting those territories toIsraelthe Jewish people?
I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.
Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.I swear you ask this every week.
The only person dancing is you.
Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.
View attachment 291495
Like?No land/border treaties have ever been posted.Where are the treaties granting those territories toIsraelthe Jewish people?
I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.
Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.I swear you ask this every week.
The only person dancing is you.
Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.
View attachment 291495
You mean other than the ones that have been posted.
Yeah those,
Like?No land/border treaties have ever been posted.I swear you ask this every week. And then promptly ignore the treaties as though they don't exist or are written in invisible ink. Its utterly ridiculous.
Where are the treaties granting those territories to ANYONE other than the Jewish people?Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.I swear you ask this every week.
The only person dancing is you.
Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.
View attachment 291495
You mean other than the ones that have been posted.
Yeah those,
Egypt and Jordan have no right to determine Palestine's land/borders.Like?No land/border treaties have ever been posted.Indeed, and that is when everybody starts dancing.
The only person dancing is you.
Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.
View attachment 291495
You mean other than the ones that have been posted.
Yeah those,
Like the ones that have been posted. Egypt. Jordan.
Look it up.
Egypt and Jordan have no tight to determine Palestine's land/borders.Like?No land/border treaties have ever been posted.The only person dancing is you.
Every. Single. Time. the treaties are quoted to you, you ignore them as though they don't exist.
View attachment 291495
You mean other than the ones that have been posted.
Yeah those,
Like the ones that have been posted. Egypt. Jordan.
Look it up.
(COMMENT)Deflection. Neither the armistice nor Oslo were land/border treaties.
RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
Now you are just being ridiculous. In a childlike way, you might be right. There are no agreements on the borders. They are a matter under the Permanent Status of Negotiations.
(COMMENT)Deflection. Neither the armistice nor Oslo were land/border treaties.
The Oslo Accords were the framework which, as one of the outcomes, resulted in the Exchange of Letters between PM Rabin and Chairman Arafat and the recognitions:
◈ The PLO recognizes the right of the State of Israel to exist in peace and security.
◈ The PLO encourages and calls upon the Palestinian people in the West Bank and Gaza Strip to take part in the steps leading to the normalization of life, rejecting violence and terrorism,
◈ The PLO affirms that those articles of the Palestinian Covenant which deny Israel's right to exist, and the provisions of the Covenant which are inconsistent with the commitments of this letter are now inoperative and no longer valid.
◈ Israel has decided to recognize the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people and commence negotiations with the PLO within the Middle East peace process.
The Armistice Agreements are the only thing that the Arab Palestinians and the PLO have on which to base their demand by the Negotiation Affairs Department (NAD):
◈ "The 1967 border, which is defined as the 1949 Armistice Line along with all legal modification thereto up to June 4th 1967, is the internationally-recognized border between Israel and the occupied State of Palestine." Quote from the NAD
The Oslo Accords established the Areas ("A" • "B" • "C") (among other things), clearly mapped-out as areas of control.
Most Respectfully,
R
Military control, i.e. occupation not sovereignty.The Oslo Accords established the Areas ("A" • "B" • "C") (among other things), clearly mapped-out as areas of control.
(COMMENT)Egypt and Jordan have no right to determine Palestine's land/borders.
Palestine already has international borders. Nobody else has any authority over them.RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
(COMMENT)Egypt and Jordan have no right to determine Palestine's land/borders.
The Arab Palestinians were NOT formal parties to the conflict. The territories in dispute were the lands in which the conflicts were fought.
It is the Arab Palestinians that did not have a right to establish the delimitations for peace. They were not a party to the conflict.
Most Respectfully,
R
(COMMENT)Military control, i.e. occupation not sovereignty.The Oslo Accords established the Areas ("A" • "B" • "C") (among other things), clearly mapped-out as areas of control.
(COMMENT)Palestine already has international borders. Nobody else has any authority over them.
The Mandate did not commence until 3 months after the Treaty of Lausanne. There had to be a Palestine before there could be a Mandate for Palestine.RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
Here you would be wrong again.
(COMMENT)Palestine already has international borders. Nobody else has any authority over them.
The Government of Palestine (an Instrument of Great Britian) was defined by the Order in Council:
◈ "The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."
The name "Palestine" was the short title for the phrase: "territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies"
Most Respectfully,
R
The Mandate did not commence until 3 months after the Treaty of Lausanne. There had to be a Palestine before there could be a Mandate for Palestine.RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
Here you would be wrong again.
(COMMENT)Palestine already has international borders. Nobody else has any authority over them.
The Government of Palestine (an Instrument of Great Britian) was defined by the Order in Council:
◈ "The limits of this Order are the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine."
The name "Palestine" was the short title for the phrase: "territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies"
Most Respectfully,
R
Deflection. Neither the armistice nor Oslo were land/border treaties.RE: Who are the Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,
You are not reading the meaning for sovereignty.
(COMMENT)You keep confusing military control with sovereignty.
You want there to be a difference. That does not mean there is a difference.
(COMMENT)Where are the treaties granting those territories to Israel?◈ Israel Proper
◈ Sheba'a Farms (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Golan Heights (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ East Jerusalem (which is now Israel Proper)
◈ Area "C" (full Israeli civil and security control)
I ask you to look at the Maps that were part of Armistice (on the left) and Peace Treaty (on the right). These mas are pictures of the actual map used in the documentation. They are authenticated, the Armistice in the upper left corner; and the Treaty Map in the lower right corner.
View attachment 291450 View attachment 291449
I had to take pictures of these at least four times to get them to fit in the forum. But I also have the map for the border along the The Gaza–Egypt border is the 12 kilometers (the Rafah Border Crossing segment) long border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. In both cases, the one for Egypt and the one with Jordan, the so-called Palestinian territories were included in the border of Israel. In the case of the West Bank, the entirety of the West Bank was encapsulated into the hands of Israel. It is only through the Oslo Accords do the Palestinians begin to become associated with the territory.
Most Respectfully,
R
