Zone1 Why are Christians opposed to abortion when God.....

[Meriweather]

We aren't discussing what I believe. We are discussing what Christians say they believe. Expecting consistency in what Christians believe is not too much to ask, especially if they want our laws to reflect their religion.

What colors are rainbows? Christian belief, depending on age and education, has even more range on the spectrum than a rainbow. Two people in a discussion are talking about their beliefs and how they see God and the story of Noah. No one can say "Christians believe" or "Jews believe" or "Muslims believe" because we are all unique humans beings with unique perspectives.

However, I will venture to say that one Christian belief is that God is all good, loving, and just. You cherry pick a verse in Genesis and argue Christians must believe in a God who is a cruel villain.

 

[hadit]

What colors are rainbows? Christian belief, depending on age and education, has even more range on the spectrum than a rainbow. Two people in a discussion are talking about their beliefs and how they see God and the story of Noah. No one can say "Christians believe" or "Jews believe" or "Muslims believe" because we are all unique humans beings with unique perspectives.

However, I will venture to say that one Christian belief is that God is all good, loving, and just. You cherry pick a verse in Genesis and argue Christians must believe in a God who is a cruel villain.

Missing in their narrative is the very long time God gives for man to repent before He brings judgement, and how pervasive is that evil when He does. They want to pretend that God just looked down on man one day and said, "I'm mad at you and I'm going to randomly wipe out a bunch of you". I've brought this up multiple times in this thread and gotten no valid response. They harp on the flood as being cruel and unjust, but ignore the 120 years man had to see the boat under construction and secure a seat on it. They point to the 10th plague in Egypt and ignore the hundreds of years the Jews were in bondage and the 9 previous plagues that escalated in severity, giving ample warning. It just means that when God brings judgement to the US, they will also be completely surprised and claim it's unjust, even though we've been warned that we cannot continue in evil.

 

[hobelim]

It just means that when God brings judgement to the US, they will also be completely surprised and claim it's unjust, even though we've been warned that we cannot continue in evil.

What type of judgement do you think God will bring to the US and what evil have "we' been warned about and ignored that would make that judgment just? Sex, drugs, and rock and roll?

Pft.

Some people look at the world and see evil everywhere not because evil is everywhere but because there is a virulent thought perversion dwelling in their own mind which distorts all of their perceptions and compels them to engage in vile and degrading practices and persecute the innocent to appease God without noticing the enemy they seek to destroy is living within.

What then?

Isn't that astonishing unawareness evidence that they have already been judged by God and have their reward already?

And what if the judgment God brings to the US because of its founding principles and dedication to "truth liberty and justice for all" is the removal of the curse on people like this?

Would that be so terrible?

The most hysterical people out there panicking about the "end of the world", the rise of the antichrist, or the entire country going to hell, Oh my! , are the ones who are already in it.

 

[playtime]

abortion is sanctioned in the bible & was performed by priests .

Numbers 5:11-31

New International Version
​

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife​

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

 

[playtime]

& the so called 'religious right' wasn't all that uppity about abortion not too long ago.

HISTORY DEPT.

The Religious Right and the Abortion Myth​

White evangelicals in the 1970s didn’t initially care about abortion. They organized to defend racial segregation in evangelical institutions — and only seized on banning abortion because it was more palatable than their real goal.

The history of that movement, however, is more complicated. White evangelicals in the 1970s did not mobilize against Roe v. Wade, which they considered a Catholic issue. They organized instead to defend racial segregation in evangelical institutions, including Bob Jones University.
To suggest otherwise is to perpetrate what I call the abortion myth, the fiction that the genesis of the Religious Right — the powerful evangelical political movement that has reshaped American politics over the past four decades — lay in opposition to abortion.

The historical record is clear. In 1968, Christianity Today, the flagship magazine of evangelicalism, organized a conference with the Christian Medical Society to discuss the morality of abortion. The gathering attracted 26 heavyweight theologians from throughout the evangelical world, who debated the matter over several days and then issued a statement acknowledging the ambiguities surrounding the issue, which, they said, allowed for many different approaches.

Whether the performance of an induced abortion is sinful we are not agreed,” the statement read, “but about the necessity of it and permissibility for it under certain circumstances we are in accord.”

Two successive editors of Christianity Today took equivocal stands on abortion. Carl F. H. Henry, the magazine’s founder, affirmed that “a woman’s body is not the domain and property of others,” and his successor, Harold Lindsell, allowed that, “if there are compelling psychiatric reasons from a Christian point of view, mercy and prudence may favor a therapeutic abortion.”
The Religious Right and the Abortion Myth

hmmmm ... imagine that.

 

[BULLDOG]

What colors are rainbows? Christian belief, depending on age and education, has even more range on the spectrum than a rainbow. Two people in a discussion are talking about their beliefs and how they see God and the story of Noah. No one can say "Christians believe" or "Jews believe" or "Muslims believe" because we are all unique humans beings with unique perspectives.

However, I will venture to say that one Christian belief is that God is all good, loving, and just. You cherry pick a verse in Genesis and argue Christians must believe in a God who is a cruel villain.

No one can say what Christians believe? Tell that to all the so called christians demanding that the entire country adhere to their particular religious beliefs. Not sure if you are just trying to cloud the discussion with goofy remarks, or if you truly think what you just said was rational.

 

[hadit]

No one can say what Christians believe? Tell that to all the so called christians demanding that the entire country adhere to their particular religious beliefs. Not sure if you are just trying to cloud the discussion with goofy remarks, or if you truly think what you just said was rational.

How dare they insist we keep murder illegal!

Of course, I know exactly what you are referring to, because there's really only one issue that most liberals complain about that many Christians want.

 

[Meriweather]

No one can say what Christians believe?

Not what I said, is it? I said Christian beliefs cover a wide spectrum....

 

[BULLDOG]

Not what I said, is it? I said Christian beliefs cover a wide spectrum....

It's exactly what you said.
No one can say "Christians believe" or "Jews believe" or "Muslims believe" -- #341

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Do you have faith that God wants us to know truth? There are many other sources of truth. We can find quite a bit of truth in nature.

You won't "find truth" when you deny clear scriptures. Do you believe the Holy Bible is THE Word of God?

 

[Carl in Michigan]

abortion is sanctioned in the bible & was performed by priests .​

​

Numbers 5:11-31​

​

New International Version​

​

The Test for an Unfaithful Wife​

11 Then the Lord said to Moses, 12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him 13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), 14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure— 15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.
16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord. 17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. 18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. 20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”— 21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell. 22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”
“‘Then the woman is to say, “Amen. So be it.”
23 “‘The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. 24 He shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering will enter her. 25 The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the Lord and bring it to the altar. 26 The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial[c] offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. 27 If she has made herself impure and been unfaithful to her husband, this will be the result: When she is made to drink the water that brings a curse and causes bitter suffering, it will enter her, her abdomen will swell and her womb will miscarry, and she will become a curse. 28 If, however, the woman has not made herself impure, but is clean, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
29 “‘This, then, is the law of jealousy when a woman goes astray and makes herself impure while married to her husband, 30 or when feelings of jealousy come over a man because he suspects his wife. The priest is to have her stand before the Lord and is to apply this entire law to her. 31 The husband will be innocent of any wrongdoing, but the woman will bear the consequences of her sin.’”

I know you hav no interest in THE TRUTH, but for thos who do, here's the explanation of Numbers 11

Is Numbers 5:11-31 referring to God causing an abortion? What was the jealousy offering? | GotQuestions.org

Is Numbers 5:11-31 referring to God causing an abortion? What was the jealousy offering? Why did a wife suspected of adultery have to drink the nasty water?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[Bob Blaylock]

abortion is sanctioned in the bible & was performed by priests .
Numbers 5:11-31

I know you hav [sic] no interest in THE TRUTH, but for thos [sic] who do, here's the explanation of Numbers 11

Is Numbers 5:11-31 referring to God causing an abortion? What was the jealousy offering? | GotQuestions.org

Is Numbers 5:11-31 referring to God causing an abortion? What was the jealousy offering? Why did a wife suspected of adultery have to drink the nasty water?

www.gotquestions.org

I'd heard this claim before, and never gave it much thought. The Mosaic law was much harsher and less civilized than what Jesus gave in his time, and what most civilizations have adopted. The Mosaic law called for harsh punishments, even death, for offenses that are no longer regarded as nearly so severe, such as working on the Sabbath, or rebelling against one's parents. It's entirely believable that under the sort of dealings that God saw fit to have with the Israelites in that time, that a child might die because of his mother's sin. It makes me think of how David's first child by Bathsheba was condemned, because he was a product of adultery and murder. It's difficult for us mortals to really understand, but in that case, it wasn't the innocent child that was punished, but the child's parents, for the grave sins that surrounded that child's conception. The child is in Heaven, with God, having died sinless.

But you're right, and the article that you cited is right. A reading of the relevant passage in the KJV gives no hint at abortion or miscarriage; that is very clearly an erroneous interpolation made later, that has somehow come to be spread and believed by many who haven't bothered to look it up for themselves.

 

[Meriweather]

No one can say "Christians believe" or "Jews believe" or "Muslims believe"

What did I use as an example? Your referencing God as cruel. No one can say, "Christians believe God is cruel. Get it? Perhaps you are a Christian who says, "I am a Christian who believes God is cruel." I am certain you understand the distinction.

 

[Meriweather]

You won't "find truth" when you deny clear scriptures. Do you believe the Holy Bible is THE Word of God?

I believe scripture is inspired by God, written by humans. I once wrote something inspired by God, but the account written was pure human.

 

[BULLDOG]

I believe scripture is inspired by God, written by humans. I once wrote something inspired by God, but the account written was pure human.

As I said before, if your religion gives you comfort, then I encourage you to hold tight to that. Just don't demand that others adhere to your beliefs. Your feeble attempts to make your beliefs sound reasonable or logical started out as childish and shallow, and have degenerated to the same trite remarks that have been used to sooth questioning christians who wanted reassurance of their beliefs more than answers to their questions.

 

[luiza]

How did that God feller have a son? He certainly has a lot of porkies told on his behalf .But he actually is the only one that you cannot sensibly call a Mother Fucker .Unless one of you has some great breaking news .

 

[Meriweather]

As I said before, if your religion gives you comfort, then I encourage you to hold tight to that. Just don't demand that others adhere to your beliefs.

You are imagining religion gives me comfort! How are you imagining that religion "comforts" me? Does it give one comfort that the sun always rises in the East, and therefore I should adhere to that belief?

As I have discussed many times before I grew up and live in an extended family of atheists, Catholics, Protestants, and Buddhism. The last thing any of ever did would imagine--let alone demand--that others adhere to our beliefs! How silly! Even those who were of the same faith/denomination noted how our beliefs took different avenues to different places.

You claim you were once close to a religion, but I am not seeing it. Are you sure you weren't just pretending all along? Were you looking for religion to comfort you and never found comfort? If you never did find comfort, you just might have been on the right track.

Please don't tell me you are one of those non-religious people who believes people are afraid of death and turn to religion for comfort! If so,, that would confirm you never knew a thing about faith/religion.

 

[Meriweather]

Your feeble attempts to make your beliefs sound reasonable or logical started out as childish and shallow, and have degenerated to the same trite remarks that have been used to sooth questioning christians who wanted reassurance of their beliefs more than answers to their questions.

All throughout this discussion, you never once tried to delve into the depths of Noah's story. I am betting you are dead certain the only thing that needs to be taken from Noah's story is that God is a cruel villain. The reason you may see a "feeble" attempt on my part is that I never once spoke of what is available to learn from Noah's story. I invited you to explore it more deeply. You showed no interest in doing that.

About all you can claim is, "That feeble Meriweather tried to entice me to study Noah's story from the author's point of view, but I made it clear I wasn't going to see a single thing more that that story confirms to me that God is a cruel villain. Now that is strength on my part!"

By the way, never in my life have I found any need to reassure anyone of his/her beliefs or non-belief. So...if you are looking for me to reassure you of your non-belief or whatever beliefs you do hold, you are speaking to the wrong person. All a discussion is (or should be) is an opportunity to share different perspectives. So you see God as a cruel villain. Shrug. That perspective misses a lot, but as it has proven deeply satisfying to you, you must have additional reasons for staying with it. I am open to discussing those additional reasons if ever you feel like chatting about that.

I kind of doubt that will happen as you seem to be extremely disappointed in simply finding, in your eyes and head, a feeble person who needs the comfort of religion. And, as I am not that person, probably pointless to continue. I prefer people who discuss things with me--not with someone else they created who lives only in their own head.

 

[BULLDOG]

All throughout this discussion, you never once tried to delve into the depths of Noah's story. I am betting you are dead certain the only thing that needs to be taken from Noah's story is that God is a cruel villain. The reason you may see a "feeble" attempt on my part is that I never once spoke of what is available to learn from Noah's story. I invited you to explore it more deeply. You showed no interest in doing that.

About all you can claim is, "That feeble Meriweather tried to entice me to study Noah's story from the author's point of view, but I made it clear I wasn't going to see a single thing more that that story confirms to me that God is a cruel villain. Now that is strength on my part!"

By the way, never in my life have I found any need to reassure anyone of his/her beliefs or non-belief. So...if you are looking for me to reassure you of your non-belief or whatever beliefs you do hold, you are speaking to the wrong person. All a discussion is (or should be) is an opportunity to share different perspectives. So you see God as a cruel villain. Shrug. That perspective misses a lot, but as it has proven deeply satisfying to you, you must have additional reasons for staying with it. I am open to discussing those additional reasons if ever you feel like chatting about that.

I kind of doubt that will happen as you seem to be extremely disappointed in simply finding, in your eyes and head, a feeble person who needs the comfort of religion. And, as I am not that person, probably pointless to continue. I prefer people who discuss things with me--not with someone else they created who lives only in their own head.

What can be learned from any story is not directly related to whether the story is an accurate depiction of actual events. There are comforting themes in Harry Potter, but few believe it really happened. That wasn't my point anyway. The bible is the only complete depiction of what christianity porports to be, and no discussion of a Christian god is possible without it being the final arbetor of what Christianity is. To know, or even discuss what your particular flavor of Christianity is, we first must define which parts of the bible you choose to believe are real .We discussed the flood story untill you made it abundently clear that you don't think it is based in a real event, but was more of a parable At that point, I suggested a few more stories, and asked if you believe any of them to be true. Evidently, you weren't interested in changing the focus of our discussion to any of them. I'm unable to discuss the bible with you if I don't know which parts you choose to believe, and why.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

As I said before, if your religion gives you comfort, then I encourage you to hold tight to that. Just don't demand that others adhere to your beliefs.

You're willing to “demand that others adhere to your beliefs” to the point of murdering innocent human beings in cold blood in accordance with your belief that these victims are something less than human.