Why aren't more people Libertarian?

[emilynghiem]

You are not a libertarian, for who would agree on the penalties of violators? A democratic meeting of the whole population? You are sillier than democrats gone wild.

None of you guys offer a consistent philosophy that is different than what we have. You just say it is different.

Dear Jake: The more we localize government where there is closer to direct accountability, and train people to manage their own representation and conflict resolution on a scale that CAN be handled more effectively,
I believe we CAN start addressing abuses and violations on this locally democratized level.

In fact, we would be able to "intervene early" to address issues and resolve conflicts on a personal/civil level BEFORE they escalate into the types of violence and wars that ARE harder if not impossible to police once they go too far.

Given that each person and party has such different focus issues and priorities, I believe ALL people would be better off having local accountability and representation. The more work we can get done on that level, without imposing on other groups or parties, we can remove more burdens off federal govt, and delegate local issues to diverse communities to resolve themselves, and REWARD them for this by retaining control of authority and resources.
Where if you don't resolve your own conflicts, then outside authority of govt steps in instead.

By pushing for more local and individual accountability, responsibility and restitution for problems caused on that level, this would eliminate a lot of the conflicts that otherwise escalate out of control beyond what can be addressed "democratically."

I agree that all groups have a different way of pushing for their own autonomy; it is human nature to want our free will and consent to be respected as the basis of govt and law.

 

[bripat9643]

It is ALREADY legal for people to print their own currency

Wrong. It's not legal to print your own currency. A man was recently sent to prison for a long term because he created an internet currency backed by gold.

The government brooks no interference with its monopoly on printing money.

 

[emilynghiem]

It's typical squirming, I have written a small book's worth of libertarian criticism the last couple of days and you and others still squirm out from under any attempt to nail you down on any but the most general policy statements and have a ready escape hatch for everything that might reflect negatively on your ideals. You have the most obtuse kind of politics I have ever encountered. I've talked to every kind from self described communists to white nationalists to people so apolitical they might as well live in a cave but they will at least make a policy stand on something and accept it's possible failure.

I think the moral of the story is really that I'm not giving you the answers you want. You asked me how I'm not a friedmanite and I told you. I'm sorry that's not good enough.

Answer me this though. How can there be a true free market when there's a central bank that dictates the very supply and demand of money itself?

In a true free market, interest rates would be determined by market forces, not a central bank setting a target and creating or extinguishing bank reserves to move those rates where they want them.

I am just frustrated, by and large the Friedman philosophy is what you believe and we have the example of his policies being implemented and usually sucking for everyone but the very rich but you find a difference and you get to disown the whole thing, presto, your ideology is once again spotless and pure.

Dear Occupied: The good news in all this frustration, which at this point is shared by Conservatives Libertarians Greens and many others who see what is wrong with the direction the country is going, is that it is forcing people to overcome divisions and to team up across cultural and political lines if we are going to put together viable solutions.

We AGREE there is a problem with abuse of power and policy to benefit private interests
of one group over another. We disagree which group is the most to blame, and we don't agree on solutions yet.

Can we set up a system where we can solve these problems REGARDLESS which angle or problem we are attacking, where we don't have to agree necessarily to get the work done?

I was sharing the idea with a friend of mine, about all people parties and states signing a petition agreeing to pay 10% max to federal govt, and anything above that is a LOAN where the LENDERS set the terms of paying back or receiving the LOAN. So turning the tables on govt, where we set the standards of what we want our money to go toward beyond the 10%

So that way, people can direct their money toward the PARTY of their choice, and work on business plans and corrections for the issues that WE want to be involved in solving.

People have talked about taxpayers' choice for a long time, but there was no way to do that llogisticallly. What if this was divided proportionally by party, and then just like religious choice of which church to put your money into to fund and run programs, you can choose which party and take responsibility through that party how to represent and push solutions?

Please know your frustration is shared across the board.

How can we turn a negative situation into a solution that all parties will embrace?

 

[Paulie]

Answer me this though. How can there be a true free market when there's a central bank that dictates the very supply and demand of money itself?

In a true free market, interest rates would be determined by market forces, not a central bank setting a target and creating or extinguishing bank reserves to move those rates where they want them.

Dear Paulie: What is stopping OTHER PEOPLE from setting up coops and barter groups so all groups can do the same thing, and control their local economies and business flow?

It is ALREADY legal for people to print their own currency, and many communities have set up either barter banks or other means of trading credits based on labor instead of waiting on federal reserve money to track these exchanges.

Ithaca Hours - Local Currency - Ithaca, New York
Home

This is a free market solution.

So is microlending where people are ALREADY FREE to
choose where to invest or lend their money, set up business plans and training,
where the loans paid back can be re-invested in growing more local businesses.

Grameen Foundation | Empowering people. Changing lives. Innovating for the world
http://www.modestneeds.org

It's legal to print your own money?

Ok

 

[Paulie]

Have at it.

In fact, tie it to silver and call it "Liberty Dollar".

Let me know how you make out

 

[occupied]

I think the moral of the story is really that I'm not giving you the answers you want. You asked me how I'm not a friedmanite and I told you. I'm sorry that's not good enough.

Answer me this though. How can there be a true free market when there's a central bank that dictates the very supply and demand of money itself?

In a true free market, interest rates would be determined by market forces, not a central bank setting a target and creating or extinguishing bank reserves to move those rates where they want them.

I am just frustrated, by and large the Friedman philosophy is what you believe and we have the example of his policies being implemented and usually sucking for everyone but the very rich but you find a difference and you get to disown the whole thing, presto, your ideology is once again spotless and pure.

Dear Occupied: The good news in all this frustration, which at this point is shared by Conservatives Libertarians Greens and many others who see what is wrong with the direction the country is going, is that it is forcing people to overcome divisions and to team up across cultural and political lines if we are going to put together viable solutions.

We AGREE there is a problem with abuse of power and policy to benefit private interests
of one group over another. We disagree which group is the most to blame, and we don't agree on solutions yet.

Can we set up a system where we can solve these problems REGARDLESS which angle or problem we are attacking, where we don't have to agree necessarily to get the work done?

I was sharing the idea with a friend of mine, about all people parties and states signing a petition agreeing to pay 10% max to federal govt, and anything above that is a LOAN where the LENDERS set the terms of paying back or receiving the LOAN. So turning the tables on govt, where we set the standards of what we want our money to go toward beyond the 10%

So that way, people can direct their money toward the PARTY of their choice, and work on business plans and corrections for the issues that WE want to be involved in solving.

People have talked about taxpayers' choice for a long time, but there was no way to do that llogisticallly. What if this was divided proportionally by party, and then just like religious choice of which church to put your money into to fund and run programs, you can choose which party and take responsibility through that party how to represent and push solutions?

Please know your frustration is shared across the board.

How can we turn a negative situation into a solution that all parties will embrace?

That's an easy answer, at least, abandon this near religious devotion to treasured ideology that forces most to reject things out of hand. If some part of liberal socialism works, do it, if some part of conservatism works, do it, and leave off the knee-jerk labels because anyone who thinks their rigid ideology is a golden road to prosperity is a blind fool.

 

[emilynghiem]

It is ALREADY legal for people to print their own currency

Wrong. It's not legal to print your own currency. A man was recently sent to prison for a long term because he created an internet currency backed by gold.

The government brooks no interference with its monopoly on printing money.

It is legal.
You have to follow certain rules:
(1) the notes have to stay within geographical bounds
Maybe he broke this rule by going over the internet. The systems I know that work are
based on labor-exchanges so that is not the same as claiming to back currency with gold?
That sounds fraudulent. There is another group trying to push silver backed currency,
which again is not locally controlled in a democratic cooperative as with labor exchanges.
(2) people must pay the same amount of taxes on any sale or income that you normally would using federal reserve notes (noting that the federal govt only takes its own currency, and all people or businesses are free to AGREE to take the local currency on a voluntary basis if they choose to participate
(3) the physical bills must be larger in denomination than a $1 bill, and smaller in size than federal reserve notes

The Ithaca HOURS system in New York has accumulated enough of its own capital over the years to build an entire center using labor paid for with their own currency.

The TIME BANK system in DC runs on credits in a database, and I'm not sure if they exchange actual bills.

If you have questions, talk with PAUL GLOVER who consults on the laws and system of local currency. His number and email are posted on the websites:

Home
Ithaca Hours - Local Currency - Ithaca, New York

 

[bripat9643]

I am just frustrated, by and large the Friedman philosophy is what you believe and we have the example of his policies being implemented and usually sucking for everyone but the very rich but you find a difference and you get to disown the whole thing, presto, your ideology is once again spotless and pure.

What you mean by "sucks for everyone else" is that it would suck for the tics on the ass of society who would have to work for a living instead of looting the wealth of the productive members of society.

Yeah, you'll never find a libertarian agreeing with that proposition because putting a stop to it is what libertarianism is all about. Your claim that libertarians "disown" it, however, is obvious horseshit. I haven't notice a one denying that they want your hand out of their pockets.

 

[bripat9643]

That's an easy answer, at least, abandon this near religious devotion to treasured ideology that forces most to reject things out of hand. If some part of liberal socialism works, do it, if some part of conservatism works, do it, and leave off the knee-jerk labels because anyone who thinks their rigid ideology is a golden road to prosperity is a blind fool.

Socialism doesn't work, period.

 

[Paulie]

It is ALREADY legal for people to print their own currency

Wrong. It's not legal to print your own currency. A man was recently sent to prison for a long term because he created an internet currency backed by gold.

The government brooks no interference with its monopoly on printing money.

It is legal.
You have to follow certain rules:
(1) the notes have to stay within geographical bounds
Maybe he broke this rule by going over the internet. The systems I know that work are
based on labor-exchanges so that is not the same as claiming to back currency with gold?
That sounds fraudulent. There is another group trying to push silver backed currency,
which again is not locally controlled in a democratic cooperative as with labor exchanges.
(2) people must pay the same amount of taxes on any sale or income that you normally would using federal reserve notes (noting that the federal govt only takes its own currency, and all people or businesses are free to AGREE to take the local currency on a voluntary basis if they choose to participate
(3) the physical bills must be larger in denomination than a $1 bill, and smaller in size than federal reserve notes

The Ithaca HOURS system in New York has accumulated enough of its own capital over the years to build an entire center using labor paid for with their own currency.

The TIME BANK system in DC runs on credits in a database, and I'm not sure if they exchange actual bills.

If you have questions, talk with PAUL GLOVER who consults on the laws and system of local currency. His number and email are posted on the websites:

Home
Ithaca Hours - Local Currency - Ithaca, New York

The ithaca currency is probably allowed to survive because it's staying local and not threatening the USD.

Liberty Dollar was initially allowed by the Treasury and the SS. Until it started catching on and spreading. Then the Feds came and raided it and jailed the creator.

Sure, you can do whatever you want locally. But if it becomes a potential threat to the USD's hegemony, you're toast.

 

[emilynghiem]

That's an easy answer, at least, abandon this near religious devotion to treasured ideology that forces most to reject things out of hand. If some part of liberal socialism works, do it, if some part of conservatism works, do it, and leave off the knee-jerk labels because anyone who thinks their rigid ideology is a golden road to prosperity is a blind fool.

Dear Occupied: Unfortunately, in order to be realistic in dealing with human beings, there is a learning curve of going through stages of religious/political development; and the stage of denial and projection is just one phase that people go through.

Why not set up a system that ACCOUNTS for people's different stages in the learning curve?

We have a school system that separates elementary level from high school, college and graduate levels.

Why not ALLOW people or parties to go through their steps and stages of progression toward independence WITHOUT imposing burdens on others? That is the real problem, the imposition on people who don't agree to pay for the learning curve of some person or party they don't agree to pay for. Why not pay for their OWN?

 

[bripat9643]

It is ALREADY legal for people to print their own currency

Wrong. It's not legal to print your own currency. A man was recently sent to prison for a long term because he created an internet currency backed by gold.

The government brooks no interference with its monopoly on printing money.

It is legal.
You have to follow certain rules:
(1) the notes have to stay within geographical bounds
Maybe he broke this rule by going over the internet. The systems I know that work are
based on labor-exchanges so that is not the same as claiming to back currency with gold?
That sounds fraudulent. There is another group trying to push silver backed currency,
which again is not locally controlled in a democratic cooperative as with labor exchanges.
(2) people must pay the same amount of taxes on any sale or income that you normally would using federal reserve notes (noting that the federal govt only takes its own currency, and all people or businesses are free to AGREE to take the local currency on a voluntary basis if they choose to participate
(3) the physical bills must be larger in denomination than a $1 bill, and smaller in size than federal reserve notes

The Ithaca HOURS system in New York has accumulated enough of its own capital over the years to build an entire center using labor paid for with their own currency.

The TIME BANK system in DC runs on credits in a database, and I'm not sure if they exchange actual bills.

If you have questions, talk with PAUL GLOVER who consults on the laws and system of local currency. His number and email are posted on the websites:

Home
Ithaca Hours - Local Currency - Ithaca, New York

I don't know how you create a currency based on labor. Furthermore, there are legal tender laws that require payment to be made in federal reserve notes. There are so many laws that would be violated I don't see how it's feasible.

 

[Paulie]

Wrong. It's not legal to print your own currency. A man was recently sent to prison for a long term because he created an internet currency backed by gold.

The government brooks no interference with its monopoly on printing money.

It is legal.
You have to follow certain rules:
(1) the notes have to stay within geographical bounds
Maybe he broke this rule by going over the internet. The systems I know that work are
based on labor-exchanges so that is not the same as claiming to back currency with gold?
That sounds fraudulent. There is another group trying to push silver backed currency,
which again is not locally controlled in a democratic cooperative as with labor exchanges.
(2) people must pay the same amount of taxes on any sale or income that you normally would using federal reserve notes (noting that the federal govt only takes its own currency, and all people or businesses are free to AGREE to take the local currency on a voluntary basis if they choose to participate
(3) the physical bills must be larger in denomination than a $1 bill, and smaller in size than federal reserve notes

The Ithaca HOURS system in New York has accumulated enough of its own capital over the years to build an entire center using labor paid for with their own currency.

The TIME BANK system in DC runs on credits in a database, and I'm not sure if they exchange actual bills.

If you have questions, talk with PAUL GLOVER who consults on the laws and system of local currency. His number and email are posted on the websites:

Home
Ithaca Hours - Local Currency - Ithaca, New York

I don't know how you create a currency based on labor. Furthermore, there are legal tender laws that require payment to be made in federal reserve notes. There are so many laws that would be violated I don't see how it's feasible.

It's feasible initially. Obviously tax debts can't be paid with alternate currencies, but a market transaction would be a market transaction. You can accept an alternate currency for a private transaction just like you can accept baked goods if you preferred.

Where it becomes and issue is when the alternate currency gets to the point of USD competition. That's when the Feds step in.

 

[occupied]

That's an easy answer, at least, abandon this near religious devotion to treasured ideology that forces most to reject things out of hand. If some part of liberal socialism works, do it, if some part of conservatism works, do it, and leave off the knee-jerk labels because anyone who thinks their rigid ideology is a golden road to prosperity is a blind fool.

Dear Occupied: Unfortunately, in order to be realistic in dealing with human beings, there is a learning curve of going through stages of religious/political development; and the stage of denial and projection is just one phase that people go through.

Why not set up a system that ACCOUNTS for people's different stages in the learning curve?

We have a school system that separates elementary level from high school, college and graduate levels.

Why not ALLOW people or parties to go through their steps and stages of progression toward independence WITHOUT imposing burdens on others? That is the real problem, the imposition on people who don't agree to pay for the learning curve of some person or party they don't agree to pay for. Why not pay for their OWN?

I guess you are talking about your idea from an earlier post, not sure I understand exactly what you are suggesting so I really can't comment other than it sounds to me as if you want to make the national budget into some kind of ongoing referendum, really not sure you can achieve that kind of public engagement to make it still not a giant special interest feeding frenzy as it is now. Got a link to some further info?

 

[emilynghiem]

I don't know how you create a currency based on labor. Furthermore, there are legal tender laws that require payment to be made in federal reserve notes. There are so many laws that would be violated I don't see how it's feasible.

Yes, if institutions require payment in FR notes, of course, you pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's, as you would pay English people in pounds etc.

Only people who agree to accept the local currency can do so and exchange it likewise with other people or businesses who agree to accept it.

The group in Ithaca distributes video and literature to teach activists and communities how to set up their own system. The dollars are divided in parts of an HOUR, where 1 hour = $10, so 1/2 HOUR = $5 and 1/8 = $1.25

The business side of the distribution involves printing a newspaper where the businesses using the system advertise, so the point is to promote local businesses that recognize local currency, circulate that and keep the money flowing locally. It also reinforces the concept that people's time is worth 10/hour (with some exceptions made for professionally licensed doctors and lawyers etc.)

What the founder told me is that the key to sustaining it is paying full time staff to handle the core business, because it does take work to do this and can't just be all volunteer run.
That is where most groups have difficulty starting or keeping it going.

However, if the economy and govt keeps going downhill as it is now, we may not have a choice but to start managing our own local democracies, jobs and businesses and quit waiting on the federal govt to pump money into the economy for us. We would have to start valuing our own labor and paying and hiring each other, either by credits or loans or notes.

 

[Paulie]

I don't know how you create a currency based on labor. Furthermore, there are legal tender laws that require payment to be made in federal reserve notes. There are so many laws that would be violated I don't see how it's feasible.

Yes, if institutions require payment in FR notes, of course, you pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's, as you would pay English people in pounds etc.

Only people who agree to accept the local currency can do so and exchange it likewise with other people or businesses who agree to accept it.

The group in Ithaca distributes video and literature to teach activists and communities how to set up their own system. The dollars are divided in parts of an HOUR, where 1 hour = $10, so 1/2 HOUR = $5 and 1/8 = $1.25

The business side of the distribution involves printing a newspaper where the businesses using the system advertise, so the point is to promote local businesses that recognize local currency, circulate that and keep the money flowing locally. It also reinforces the concept that people's time is worth 10/hour (with some exceptions made for professionally licensed doctors and lawyers etc.)

What the founder told me is that the key to sustaining it is paying full time staff to handle the core business, because it does take work to do this and can't just be all volunteer run.
That is where most groups have difficulty starting or keeping it going.

However, if the economy and govt keeps going downhill as it is now, we may not have a choice but to start managing our own local democracies, jobs and businesses and quit waiting on the federal govt to pump money into the economy for us. We would have to start valuing our own labor and paying and hiring each other, either by credits or loans or notes.

I'm telling you though...the moment the Feds feel this is a threat to the USD, it's over.

And don't think they don't know about it and don't monitor it intently.

 

[emilynghiem]

I guess you are talking about your idea from an earlier post, not sure I understand exactly what you are suggesting so I really can't comment other than it sounds to me as if you want to make the national budget into some kind of ongoing referendum, really not sure you can achieve that kind of public engagement to make it still not a giant special interest feeding frenzy as it is now. Got a link to some further info?

The major parties already have their structures and chains of command, and already have their connections with their own leaders and "private interests" in the frenzy.

The Greens have been pushing for concepts such as
* proportional representation by Party
* Green Deal for sustainable jobs and economic reform
* checks on corporate personhood

So I recommend working with that Party as well as the other Third Parties, the Libertarian, Justice and Constitution Parties. The solutions will come from the independent type members and leaders of the various parties putting their BEST ideas together.

The idea I have for converting to this 10% max idea, and considering anything above that a loan, will probably incorporate the independent currency idea, also from the Green Party.

Basically I would assign certain cases of debts or damages by govt to each of the Parties to research and assess the amount owed to taxpayers, issue "notes" against the debts to be collected, and then assign or hire legal groups to formulate a plan for the WRONGDOERS to pay back the debts to taxpayers; while the notes allow the money to circulate to the areas affected by the taxmoney lost wasted misdirected or otherwise abused, to create jobs in CORRECTING whatever problems are associated with that wrongdoing, abuse or corruption.

So if the Dems want to take on health care and funding that by going after insurance and govt fraud; and if the Greens take on environmental or financial restitution owed by corporations to certain states or regions affected by abuses; then each Party can create a budget and a business plan for collecting on behalf of taxpayer and funding the solutions they promote. As they prove what corrections work, more people can CHOOSE to fund it, or can invest or lend money to cover the debts until these are paid back by the WRONGDOERS.

 

[emilynghiem]

I'm telling you though...the moment the Feds feel this is a threat to the USD, it's over.

And don't think they don't know about it and don't monitor it intently.

There is PLENTY of work to do locally without threatening anyone on a federal level.
Most people I talk to about this idea DON'T WANT the responsibility. They will GLADLY pass the buck to anyone willing to do the work. The field is wide open, no one is fighting it.

What people are fighting is each other over fear.
If you remove that, there is nothing to stop people from organizing and taking back responsibility.
It is like being the elephant used to the ankle chain connected to the post.
We are so used to being enslaved and limited, we don't know what to do when we realize we have freedom.

 

[Paulie]

I'm telling you though...the moment the Feds feel this is a threat to the USD, it's over.

And don't think they don't know about it and don't monitor it intently.

There is PLENTY of work to do locally without threatening anyone on a federal level.
Most people I talk to about this idea DON'T WANT the responsibility. They will GLADLY pass the buck to anyone willing to do the work. The field is wide open, no one is fighting it.

One locality isn't a threat.

If the idea catches on and MANY localities start doing it, it's going to get shut down. That's not even open for debate. It's FACT.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Then you embrace localized republicanism not libertarianism. The issue remains of course how does a federal or national government work in relation to decentralized communities in the states.

What role will the states fulfill in your plan?

You are not a libertarian, for who would agree on the penalties of violators? A democratic meeting of the whole population? You are sillier than democrats gone wild.

None of you guys offer a consistent philosophy that is different than what we have. You just say it is different.

Dear Jake: The more we localize government where there is closer to direct accountability, and train people to manage their own representation and conflict resolution on a scale that CAN be handled more effectively,
I believe we CAN start addressing abuses and violations on this locally democratized level.

In fact, we would be able to "intervene early" to address issues and resolve conflicts on a personal/civil level BEFORE they escalate into the types of violence and wars that ARE harder if not impossible to police once they go too far.

Given that each person and party has such different focus issues and priorities, I believe ALL people would be better off having local accountability and representation. The more work we can get done on that level, without imposing on other groups or parties, we can remove more burdens off federal govt, and delegate local issues to diverse communities to resolve themselves, and REWARD them for this by retaining control of authority and resources.
Where if you don't resolve your own conflicts, then outside authority of govt steps in instead.

By pushing for more local and individual accountability, responsibility and restitution for problems caused on that level, this would eliminate a lot of the conflicts that otherwise escalate out of control beyond what can be addressed "democratically."

I agree that all groups have a different way of pushing for their own autonomy; it is human nature to want our free will and consent to be respected as the basis of govt and law.