Why do people still follow Mormonism?

[onefour1]

3. The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God’s curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1).

2 Nephi 5:21
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

The Book of Mormon teaches that a man named Lehi and his family came out of Jerusalem and were led by the Lord to the American continent. From Lehi's family rose two major divisions of people, the Nephites and the Lamanites. At first the Nephites chose to follow the Lord's commandments and were blessed for it. While the Lamanites followed after iniquity. The Lord caused a dark skin to come upon the Lamanites so that they would not be enticing unto the Lamanites. God wanted them to not mingle with the Lamanites so that they would not take upon their wicked traditions. It was not the color of their skin that made the Nephites superior in the eyes of God but their righteousness. Later in the Book of Mormon the Lamanites became more righteous than the Nephites and were considered more superior in the eyes of God than the Nephites. I have named my own son after a Lamanite who was filled with the spirit of the Lord as he stood upon a wall and declared repentance to the Nephites.

So you cannot paint God as being prejudice but only having a desire that his children (no matter what the color of their skin) be righteous and obey his commandments.

Helaman 13:1-3
1 And now it came to pass in the eighty and sixth year, the Nephites did still remain in wickedness, yea, in great wickedness, while the Lamanites did observe strictly to keep the commandments of God, according to the law of Moses.
2 And it came to pass that in this year there was one Samuel, a Lamanite, came into the land of Zarahemla, and began to preach unto the people. And it came to pass that he did preach, many days, repentance unto the people, and they did cast him out, and he was about to return to his own land.
3 But behold, the voice of the Lord came unto him, that he should return again, and prophesy unto the people whatsoever things should come into his heart.

 

[onefour1]

4. The Book of Mormon teaches that, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10).

The quote from the Book of Mormon is true but the interpretation of the bible is false. This philosophy says that we will all be saved into the kingdom of heaven due to the atoning sacrifice of our Lord and Savior regardless of whether we do any works or not. Under this reasoning works follow those who believe but the work of believing does not save us but only Christ. But they will profess that the one work of believing is necessary but not any others. This is absurd. For the apostle James has taught:

James 2:14-26
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

As you can see, good works are a part of faith.

Often to justify this type of belief, they will quote Ephesians 2:8-9:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

As this verse tells us, we are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. But we must exercise faith. Now as I have shown you above, the Apostle James clearly taught that faith without works is a dead faith. So what was Paul teaching us in the above verses? There were those in the days of the Apostles who thought that by being born into the house of Israel and by strict works of the law of Moses alone, they would be guaranteed salvation. In other words, by their works alone they could be saved. But real salvation does not come by works alone and no man can boast that he obtained the kingdom of heaven on his own merit. It is only by the grace of God that we are saved. But before God will grant to us his grace, he requires that we exercise faith in him. And as the Apostle James states, faith without works is dead. What the critics fail to do is quote the next verse in Ephesians.

Ephesians 2:10
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

The Bible declares that it is by our works that we will be judged.

Revelation 20:12-13
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Romans 2:2-6
2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Revelation 22:12
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Matthew 16:27
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

As you can see from the above verses, works are a part of faith and faith is necessary before God will grant his grace upon us to enter into his kingdom.

 

[onefour1]

I will respond to the other points in your list at a later date.

 

[Disir]

The whole history of Mormonism, including Joseph Smith's criminal record, is most often hidden from the followers. This is incredibly easy to do if you look at it as a cult. You have to be able to look quite carefully at the organizational structure and how privacy is dealt with.
This is the missionary manual. You should look at communication with family. You might want to have a good read through starting at about page 20. You want to have a good look at how you are never alone.
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/topics/missionary/MissionaryHandbook2006Navigate.pdf?lang=eng

one usually doesn't get a criminal record when the charges are dismissed. Considering that Jesus Christ has a criminal record and He had no sin, why would we expect a mere servant of Christ to be flawless?

Gandhi and mlk Jr also had criminal records. And they were actually guilty.

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should know better.

 

[TSJohnson]

You've yet to provide answers though. You just told me "have faith anyway" and refused to engage any of my points whatsoever.

 

[G.T.]

one usually doesn't get a criminal record when the charges are dismissed. Considering that Jesus Christ has a criminal record and He had no sin, why would we expect a mere servant of Christ to be flawless?

Gandhi and mlk Jr also had criminal records. And they were actually guilty.

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should no better.

Exactly. Mormonism is one of the clearest cut cases of brainwashing fraud of all modern day religions.

If it werent for scientology, theyd be the #1 ding bat sheep on the planet.

 

[High_Gravity]

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should no better.

Exactly. Mormonism is one of the clearest cut cases of brainwashing fraud of all modern day religions.

If it werent for scientology, theyd be the #1 ding bat sheep on the planet.

Why is it so hard for people to see that? My ex gf converted to Mormonism and is a die hard now.

 

[Meriweather]

Why is it so hard for people to see that? My ex gf converted to Mormonism and is a die hard now.

I am betting the love, care, and concern of a close knit community is a factor, and perhaps also a set of goals.

 

[Disir]

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should no better.

Exactly. Mormonism is one of the clearest cut cases of brainwashing fraud of all modern day religions.

If it werent for scientology, theyd be the #1 ding bat sheep on the planet.

Yep. It is brainwashing.

Any organization that seeks to control all contact and privacy is the number one sign.

 

[Ava]

I learned about it following Mitt Romney last election. The biggest thing I learned is that it's completely, transparently false.

There is no reason to believe that Joseph Smith was anything like a prophet. There is plenty of reason to believe he was a fraud. As a youth, he was locally known for his tall tales and con jobs. As a young man, he was well versed in the occult practices common in the region and was acquainted with Swedenborg's New Church ideas, such as multiple levels of Heaven and marriage in the afterlife. As an adult, he suddenly appeared with this alleged record of prehistoric upstate New York written in Hebrew using the Egyptian alphabet that he refused to let more than a few people see. He translated it with his "peep stones" by putting them in a hat, putting his face in the hat, and yelling words to his friend and "scribe" behind a curtain. The resulting book bore suspicious similarity to his favorite historical fiction.

There is no physical or cultural evidence that the civilizations in the Book of Mormon ever existed outside its pages. There are no records of them among any indigenous people. There are no artifacts or ruins where the cities supposedly were. There are no bodies or weapons where the battles were supposedly fought. This isn't for lack of trying to find them. Plenty of people have. All LDS-themed archaeology has ever turned up have been new hypotheses to explain away the stark lack of evidence about what should be the most concrete, irrefutable proof for their religion.

The other records, like the Book of Abraham, are known frauds. It's now proven that Joe Smith didn't know a word of Egyptian, or even its writing system. Several of his screw ups prove this. One is his lesser known works, Egyptian Alphabet & Grammar, has been thoroughly wrecked by actual Egyptologists. Another, and probably the most damning, is his mistake regarding the Kinderhook plates. Those are a set of six plates brass plates some farmers forged to trick him into trying to translate them. He took the bait.

There are other problems with his credibility as well, like his multiple versions of his "first vision" story and his criminal record. I just don't understand it. How can anyone look at this religion and see anything but a couple centuries old fraud ultimately made up by a shameless huckster looking to build a cult of personality around himself and score himself some married 14 year old poon?

Different strokes for different folks. I lived around true-to-faith Mormons and jack-Mormons for two years and liked everyone I met. They were all fun,and pleasant and Utah was beautiful. I never judged any of them regarding their religion whether they adhered to it or not. I'm for most anything that brings contentment to anther's life as long as they bring no harm to others. Pretty simple,really.

 

[MaxGrit]

You're pretty much admitting that the Book of Mormon is false and teaches false doctrines.
Reasons:

1) Have to study the Book of Mormon first to find truths

2) After studying the Book of Mormons, you has to take the challenge of testing its truths by asking a demon, pretending to be God, to let you know what is true. by asking a demon that pretends to be God

3) What you think is the Holy Spirit is actually a demon. This demon have power to influence man's will but no power to really convict the will. The demon's power of is mainly seduction. The demon is only able to seduce some people's will and they tend to believe in its lies. However, some people will not be seduced by the demon and refuses to believe its lies.

so God is a demon? Exactly how do you learn truth if it isn't through study and revelation from the Holy Spirit.

was it a demon that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God?

the bible says to test all things and you say testing the Book of Mormon is demonic? Paul said that you can only learn the things of the Spirit by the Spirit.

I guarantee you that it isn't God encouraging you not to pray about the Book of Mormon. Because the Holy spirit encourages a man to pray in all thing.

or are you really so disbelieving that you don't think God the Father can answer your prayer? You really think praying to Him is to a demon?

your reasoning makes no sense. How is the bible any different? How would you know it is true if you don't ask the Lord? How can you know that Jesus is the Christ without the Spirit of prophesy? And how can you obtain a witness of that Spirit unless exercise faith and ask?

I know by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ and that the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. Do demons now testify of Christ? Do they preach redemption through Jesus Christ? Can a house divides stand?

the Pharisees tried to convince the people that Christ cast out devils by the power of the devil. He didn't find that reasoning very convincing.

when we prophesy of Christ have we obtained they Spirit from a demon? When we heal the sick is that power a gift from the devil? Since when does the devil heal anyone? It's contrary to his nature.

read the Book of Mormon for yourself and you will learn more about Christ than anywhere else.

Yep. There are many anti-Christs and I believe the Book of Mormon teaches the worship of a false Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth is an anti Christ? That's a new one for me.

and you bases this off what? Not reading the Book of Mormon?

You believe in a false Jesus Christ, the primary meaning of anti-Christ.

The book of Mormon teaches the doctrines of demons.

so Jesus of Nazareth who the apostles testify to is a false Christ? And salvation through the blood of Christ is the doctrine of demons?

Same words and different meanings. You are talking about a different Jesus with different apostles. Ninja posted more information on why.

 

[TSJohnson]

This was an interesting thread. All it's proven to me so far is that most rank and file Mormons just don't give a shit about facts if they get in the way of the story, anyone presenting those facts is to be branded an "anti-Mormon troll" and completely ignored until they stop causing mental discomfort, former Mormons are considered even worse anti-Mormons not worth listening to until they apologize for trying to think for themselves and fall back in line, and Christians in general still love sectarian conflict and would be at each other like Muslims again if they were still allowed to be.

Thanks for clearing that up, everyone!

 

[longknife]

Let's get down to the nitty-gritty. If the LDS church is a sham as some of you claim, please explained the information in this article - Mormons Are Fastest Growing Religion

 

[TSJohnson]

Islam, Orthodox Judaism, and Wicca all make that claim as well. Regardless, here it's just a cheap appeal to popularity. It doesn't matter if it is or isn't the fastest growing religion. It wouldn't mean anything to the veracity of its claims. That is the real issue here. That's what I've repeatedly brought up throughout this thread. That's what the Mormon posters have almost completely ignored. I know if I post a thread like this about Catholicism or fundamentalist Baptist teachings I would get real engagement and in depth defenses of everything I critiqued. Only with Mormonism have all of my questions and criticisms fallen on deaf ears.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

Joseph Smith was a con artist. He operated as if he had a right to sleep with other men's wives and underage girls.

Interestingly enough you ignore your own alleged witnesses and their relationship with each other. In order for Cowdery to enter into a lengthy confession then he would have had to admit his own part in fraud and deception.

Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated after he calls out Joseph Smith for having an affair with Fanny Alger. Not a wife. Not a spiritual wife. She is an affair. In the same house as his wife Emma. Fanny Alger is then hit on by Brigham Young and she turns him down.
Frances Fanny Ward Alger Custer 1817 - 1889 - Find A Grave Memorial

But, there is a little more to the story: Kirtland Safety Society Anti-Banking Company . This is the backdrop of the dissenters. Isn't that right?

Martin Harris publicly states that nobody saw any plates in 1838.

Whitmore does what? Starts his own brand of BS church.

All con-men. The reality here is that YOU should no better.

Exactly. Mormonism is one of the clearest cut cases of brainwashing fraud of all modern day religions.

If it werent for scientology, theyd be the #1 ding bat sheep on the planet.

Yep. It is brainwashing.

Any organization that seeks to control all contact and privacy is the number one sign.

Except the church does no such thing. Been a member since 1979 and they have never tried to control me or who I saw nor invaded my privacy or any other of your outrageous lies.

 

[Grendelyn]

but you get your own planet when you die and get to wear magical underwear now

The underwear is more commonly known as a garment, worn to symbolize or remind one of the promises he or she has made to God.

As for the planets...it is my understanding that is more a caricature of LDS belief of the after life--kind of on the order of the dead sitting on clouds and playing harps.

I don't know much about the LDS faith, but I would recommend waiting for a member of that faith to stop by and teach us facts instead of paying much note to anything that seems a bit fantastical.

That's actually pretty funny - that one must wear underwear to be reminded of one's faith.

Avatar told me I didn't know anything about morms and their belief in a magic, invisible planet so I did some reading. From what I read, they do indeed believe its real. I posted the links in another thread but of course, Avatar never commented any further.

It may be one of those things that varies from sect to sect.

Catholics wear a crucifix, Jews wear a Star of David and atheists wear a sour expression.

Nonsense, Ernie . . . just like my Avatar, I wear the letter 'A' on a chain around my neck and smile all the time for I'm very happy to be alive. ~ Susan

 

[TSJohnson]

I assumed that the charge of invasion of privacy was a reference to the interview with the bishop.

 

[Judicial review]

Because it's a cult, and everybody in the USA is fucking retarded. FYI, I drank a little tonight. Horrible day. Just fucking horrible..

 

[guno]

no wonder why mitt didn't want to talk about his religion

 

[Ernie S.]

but you get your own planet when you die and get to wear magical underwear now

The underwear is more commonly known as a garment, worn to symbolize or remind one of the promises he or she has made to God.

As for the planets...it is my understanding that is more a caricature of LDS belief of the after life--kind of on the order of the dead sitting on clouds and playing harps.

I don't know much about the LDS faith, but I would recommend waiting for a member of that faith to stop by and teach us facts instead of paying much note to anything that seems a bit fantastical.

That's actually pretty funny - that one must wear underwear to be reminded of one's faith.

Avatar told me I didn't know anything about morms and their belief in a magic, invisible planet so I did some reading. From what I read, they do indeed believe its real. I posted the links in another thread but of course, Avatar never commented any further.

It may be one of those things that varies from sect to sect.

Catholics wear a crucifix, Jews wear a Star of David and atheists wear a sour expression.

Nonsense, Ernie . . . just like my Avatar, I wear the letter 'A' on a chain around my neck and smile all the time for I'm very happy to be alive. ~ Susan

I don't know you, but the run of the mill atheist here at USMB and any other forum I have been to is very unhappy and pissed at the world.