Why do people still follow Mormonism?

[Disir]

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

Joseph Smith aside. A member of the LDS faith has never tried to con me. They are fine models of the love of Christ and service to God and one another. Whoever Joseph Smith may or may not have been, those of the LDS faith whom I have met I have seen being exemplary disciples of Christ when it comes to, "See how they love one another..."

I will argue some LDS teachings with the best, but I haven't a doubt in the world they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

That's nice.

It says a lot. Even if Joseph Smith was a fraud (which I believe he was) what cannot be dismissed as anything other than amazing is that Jesus Christ himself reached out to help those who were seeking him. Everyone should be able to praise this.

It says something about your feelings. It says nothing about the facts. It says nothing about the history. It says nothing about how these people operate.

It says that you are a wonderful individual.

It says nothing about LDS.

 

[longknife]

Clearly another anti-Mormon troll.

Tidbit - Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints are far too busy providing for their families, having family get-togethers, and practicing their religion to bother being on a forum like this to even know of or bother to read this trash - let alone respond to it!

 

[G.T.]

Because joseph smith was a sociopath who believed in pedophilia and plural marriage.....and SO DO THEY.

 

[MaxGrit]

because they've actually studied the Book of Mormon and taken the challenge to ask the Lord whether it's true. When the Lord tells you it is by the Holy Spirit, you tend to believe it. Makes it much easier to see through the caricature presented by those who dont understand the doctrine of Christ

You're pretty much admitting that the Book of Mormon is false and teaches false doctrines.
Reasons:

1) Have to study the Book of Mormon first to find truths

2) After studying the Book of Mormons, you has to take the challenge of testing its truths by asking a demon, pretending to be God, to let you know what is true. by asking a demon that pretends to be God

3) What you think is the Holy Spirit is actually a demon. This demon have power to influence man's will but no power to really convict the will. The demon's power of is mainly seduction. The demon is only able to seduce some people's will and they tend to believe in its lies. However, some people will not be seduced by the demon and refuses to believe its lies.

so God is a demon? Exactly how do you learn truth if it isn't through study and revelation from the Holy Spirit.

was it a demon that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God?

the bible says to test all things and you say testing the Book of Mormon is demonic? Paul said that you can only learn the things of the Spirit by the Spirit.

I guarantee you that it isn't God encouraging you not to pray about the Book of Mormon. Because the Holy spirit encourages a man to pray in all thing.

or are you really so disbelieving that you don't think God the Father can answer your prayer? You really think praying to Him is to a demon?

your reasoning makes no sense. How is the bible any different? How would you know it is true if you don't ask the Lord? How can you know that Jesus is the Christ without the Spirit of prophesy? And how can you obtain a witness of that Spirit unless exercise faith and ask?

I know by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ and that the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. Do demons now testify of Christ? Do they preach redemption through Jesus Christ? Can a house divides stand?

the Pharisees tried to convince the people that Christ cast out devils by the power of the devil. He didn't find that reasoning very convincing.

when we prophesy of Christ have we obtained they Spirit from a demon? When we heal the sick is that power a gift from the devil? Since when does the devil heal anyone? It's contrary to his nature.

read the Book of Mormon for yourself and you will learn more about Christ than anywhere else.

Yep. There are many anti-Christs and I believe the Book of Mormon teaches the worship of a false Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth is an anti Christ? That's a new one for me.

and you bases this off what? Not reading the Book of Mormon?

You believe in a false Jesus Christ, the primary meaning of anti-Christ.

The book of Mormon teaches the doctrines of demons.

 

[Disir]

Clearly another anti-Mormon troll.

Tidbit - Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints are far too busy providing for their families, having family get-togethers, and practicing their religion to bother being on a forum like this to even know of or bother to read this trash - let alone respond to it!

You're very transparent. You say nothing to those that are actually playing the my god is better than your god drama. Since the guy has not slammed anyone and is actually discussing the historical facts, it's as if you pick and choose your trolling.

 

[Inevitable]

And yet the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. And He testifies that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ. Why should we ignore these great witnesses from God because you say so?

Other than your religion being slightly misogynistic and homophobic it doesn't really cause any problems. I don't value it, but clearly you do. If you believe it you shouldn't have to apologize for it.

 

[jwoodie]

Talking to a Mormon about religion is like talking to a Liberal about politics. You never get a straight answer.

 

[Avatar4321]

And yet the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. And He testifies that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ. Why should we ignore these great witnesses from God because you say so?

Can you briefly tell of how the Holy Spirit testified Joseph Smith was a prophet?

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

 

[ninja007]

And yet the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. And He testifies that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ. Why should we ignore these great witnesses from God because you say so?

Can you briefly tell of how the Holy Spirit testified Joseph Smith was a prophet?

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

His Word is the Bible, not the other books you guys have.

 

[ninja007]

Why the Mormon Church is not the TRUE church Jesus Christ started?

Robert Millet is part of the Church Public Affairs (Manager of Outreach and Interfaith Relations)

Millet is the Mormon churches spokesman to try and make peace with Christians, he currently does public tours called dialogues between an Evangelical and Mormon. Millet states, “much of the misunderstanding in modern Christendom stems from a “vocabulary issue” -- the need to educate ourselves as to what our friends mean.” I agree, the meaning of what is said can be different than the words. The meaning can also be more important then the words said. We will consider the LDS church own words and statements; the meaning becomes obvious.

In this article the main differences between true Christianity and what the religion of Mormonism proposes as the truth will be laid out for anyone to understand. The choice of which is true will be their own.

I want to make it clear for both Mormons and Christians how divided we are on the essentials of the Christian faith, that is based on the teachings of Jesus Christ and His Apostles. My intent is not to make Mormons angry (it may be unavoidable) but to have them understand the basic differences and why we do not accept their religion as authentic Christianity. I will only quote from their officials; their president’s, prophet's and apostles.

We will concentrate on only three things: 1) The nature of God. 2) Jesus Christ, and 3) the way of Salvation. With their own quotes next to the Bible and the explanations of the text it will be proven they have a very different message than the Christian church does from the Bible. A message that is not compatible at all with Jesus Christ, nor with the apostles.


1) The Nature of God

Mormons teach there are many Gods and that man himself can become a god. Mormon teaching- “Question- Are there more Gods than one? Answer- Yes, many. 1 Cor 8:5” (Catechism, by Elder John Jaques, chapter 4, page 13.)

The Bible teaches there is only ONE true God who eternally exists before anything was made and that all other gods are false.

MORMONISM -“You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you” (Founder and Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith, The Journal of Discourses, Vol. VI, page 4)

Their own prophet taught that men who are created by God can become God. Of course their concept of God is not the same as the bible because the Bible teaches God always existed as God, does not change, so no creature created by him can become Him.

“God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens ( Founder and Mormon Prophet Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844, The Journal of Discourses, Vol. VI, page 3

“...He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ Himself did...” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 305-306).

The Bible- “Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man (Romans 1:22-23)

They are teaching that God was a man “as we are now” and then achieved his exalted rank. So God the Father was not always the Father, but became the Father (see John 17)

“Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. (Second President and Prophet Brigham Young, April 9, 1852, recorded in The Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50).

“As man is, god once was; as God is, man may become.”(Lorenzo Snow the fifth President of the Church, LDS Church News, Jan. 16, 1983, p. 14)

“In the Heaven where our spirits were born, there are many Gods, each one of whom has his own wife or wives which were given to him previous to his redemption, while yet in his mortal state” (The Seer, by Apostle Orson Pratt, Vol. 1, March 1853, No. 3, page 37)

“The Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (“Book of Abraham,”4:1, in The Pearl of Great Price, by the Prophet Joseph Smith, page 38.

“The head God called together the Gods and sat in grand council to bring forth the world.”

“I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of deity, it has been on the plurality of Gods…the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine.” (founder J. Smith History of the church Vol.6 pp.308,474)

The founder Smith was so convinced of his Godhood that he declared “My Father worked out his kingdom with fear and trembling, and I must do the same; and when I get my kingdom, I shall present it to my Father, so that he may obtain kingdom upon kingdom, and it will exalt him in glory. He will then take a higher exaltation, and I will TAKE HIS PLACE, and thereby become EXALTED MYSELF.” (LDS “Founder” and “Prophet” Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 4, 1844, emphasis added)

“In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it” (sermon by Founder and Prophet Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844, recorded in The Journal of Discourses, Vol. VI, page 5)

Joseph Smith said “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man.” “…I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form- like yourselves, in all the person, image and very form as a man…” (founder Joseph Smith history of the Church vol.6 p.305 also teachings of the prophet J.Smith p.345)

“It [Mormonism] is the only system of religion known in heaven or on earth that can EXALT A MAN TO THE GODHEAD, and this it will do to all those who embrace its laws and faithfully observe its precepts.” (LDS “Prophet” and second president Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 10, p. 251, 1863)

Spencer W. Kimball, the twelfth president of the church stated: “Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. 1 suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. 1 think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000” (The Ensign, p. 80, Nov. 1975).

Brigham Young the second president of the church, “How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were no Gods and worlds…”(Brigham Young Journal of Discourses, vol. 7 p.333).

What Mormon can believe in only one God? If they did, they would go against their founder, the prophets, presidents, apostles and all the teachings in their church.They would not have the testimony of their founder Joseph Smith being a prophet.

The Bible- Isaiah 44:6 “Beside Me there is no God”

Psalm 90:2 “Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God”

Deuteronomy 33:27 “The eternal God”

Deuteronomy 6:4 “our God is one LORD”

Deuteronomy 4:35,39 “Unto thee it was shown, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him. v.39 Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.”

Isaiah 44:6, 8 “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Fear ye not, neither be afraid; have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Isaiah 45:5 “Iam the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside Me”

Isaiah 45:18 “For thus says the Lord, Who created the heavens, Who is God, Who formed the earth and made it, Who has established it, Who did not create it in vain, Who formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord, and there is no other.”

Isaiah 45:21 “and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Savior; there is none beside me.

God says that he alone is God, not just over this world but in all things He alone created. He is the Eternal One (“I AM”, Exodus 3:14). No one could or ever will be able to become deity or God.

Psalm 86:10 “For thou art great, and doest wondrous things: thou art God alone.

I Chronicles 17:26 “Thou alone art God”

2 Samuel 7:22 “O LORD God; for there is none like thee, neither is there any God beside thee”

1 Kings 8:60 “the LORD is God, and that there is none else.
ISAIAH 46:9 “For I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me.”


This means that none become God like the gods before them

John 17:3 “And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent”

1 Timothy 2:5 “ For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.


2) Jesus

This brings us to the next Mormon distinctive that differs from orthodox Christianity – the Jesus of Mormonism. Mormon theology widely differs from Christianity on this subject, they teach that a “Heavenly Father” and “Heavenly Mother” begat spirits, Jesus was born in heaven with many other spirit brothers-including Lucifer. The Bible does not teach of a mother (or Father and son as a family) but the Mormon church does.

“This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in plainness by the First Presidency of the Church (Mormon Doctrine, Apostle McConkie 1979, page 516)

Milton R. Hunter, who served in the First Council of the Seventy, confirms: “The stupendous truth of the existence of a Heavenly Mother, as well as a Heavenly Father, became established facts in Mormon theology” (The Gospel Through the Ages, 1958, p.98).

Their own president should settle the matter-Hinckley was asked on a prime-time Australian TV broadcast if his church taught that God the Father has a wife, he replied, “I don't know, but I suppose so. As we have a Father I assume we have a mother.” Pressed by interviewer David Ransom, Hinckley acknowledged: “Yes. Well we...Yes, we have a mother in heaven” (From a transcript of the 9 November 1997 Compass TV program, Australian Broadcast Company president Hinckley)

“In the pre-mortal spirit life Jesus, Lucifer, and all of us were the spirit children of God and His wives” (Gospel Through the Ages, pp. 15, 93-99; Journal of Discourses, Vol. XI, p. 122). Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote, “The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus, (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129.) This agrees with Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the LDS Church, “Among the spirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, to whom all others are juniors” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 70).

According to Joseph F. Smith, sixth president of the LDS Church, “Among the spirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, to whom all others are juniors,” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 70). Joseph F. Smith, Jr., made this plain in his book,: “The birth of the Savior was a natural occurrence unattended with any degree of mysticism, and the Father God was the literal parent of Jesus in the flesh as well as in the spirit”( Religious Truths Defined, page 44)

In the book of Mormon, Alma 7:10 Jesus was born at Jerusalem. In Micah 5:2; Luke 2:4 the Bible states it was Bethlehem. The Mormon’s argument is that “Jerusalem” refers to the general vicinity, but in I Nephi 1:3 it is called a “city.” Bethlehem and Jerusalem are two different cities according to the Bible. So they have a Jesus also born in a different city.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:21-23 teaches that, “Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father.” Joseph F. Smith the sixth prophet of the LDS Church said this of Jesus, “Among the spirit children of Elohim, the first-born was and is Jehovah, or Jesus Christ, to whom all others are juniors,” (Gospel Doctrine, p. 70).


The Mormons Jesus is created, the Bibles Jesus is the creator. Jesus cannot be both created and non- created, the brother of the devil and the creator of the Devil. He is either one or the other.

The Bible- Tells all those from the time of Jesus onward to our day who Jesus ACTUALLY is- 1 Timothy 3:16 tells us “God was manifested in the flesh.” This goes along with various other passages such as Romans 9:5 “According to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen

In Hebrews 1:10 The Father speaking of the Son, “And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning has laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands... and they shall be changed: but thou art the same” (quoting Psalm 102:25).

John 1:3 “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

Colossians 1:16-17 “For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,

Revelation 1:7-8 “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen. “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

In conclusion on this topic. What kind of God became flesh? For the Mormons- none. Jesus is an angel that became a man, and was exalted to become a God.

The Bible- “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines.” (Hebrews 13:8-9)

The Jesus of Mormonism is not the Jesus of the Bible. They cannot be both created and non- created.


3) The Gospel

Now we come the most important part of this article. I’m speaking the truth in love, there is nothing more that I would desire than to see Mormons understand the gospel that is the Bible.

Galatians 1:8-9: ”But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.”

Paul states in 2 Corinthians11:3-4 “But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus (that’s what Mormons have) whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit (that’s what Mormons have) which you have not received, or a different gospel (that’s what Mormons have) which you have not accepted-- you may well put up with it!”


Mormonism

“The Sectarian Dogma of justification by Faith alone has exercised an influence for evil since the early days of Christianity” (The Articles of Faith, by Apostle James E. Talmage, 1899 edition, page 120. In his 1925 edition of The Articles of Faith, on page 479, he calls “justification by faith alone” “this pernicious doctrine.”)

“As with the proposal of Lucifer in the preexistence to save all mankind, so with the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, without works, as it is taught in modern Christendom -- both concepts are false. There is no salvation in either of them. They both come from the same source; they are not of God” (What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace p. 49; Robert Millet, p. 73)

Joseph Fielding Smith, the tenth prophet, explained “Our Eternal Father would have every soul saved if that were feasible. Salvation, however, is based on merit and obedience to divine law and therefore is only obtained through compliance with divine commandments” (Nov. 1965, p. 962).

George Q. Cannonspeaking of Joseph Smith “If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him, if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him” (George Q. Cannon, 1988 Melchezedik guide, p.142)

2 Nephi 25:23 by grace we are saved, after all we can do.”

“Therefore, acting alone, the grace of Christ is not sufficient for salvation. The works of man -- the ordinances of salvation, the deeds of service and acts of charity and mercy -- are necessary for salvation...” (By Grace Are We Saved: The necessity of God's grace in addition to man's good works, 1989 ed., p. 70)

Robert. Millet is the one who is going around in discussion with Greg Johnson telling people that we can get along and that believe the same thing. Here he calls being saved by faith through grace a doctrine of the Devil. “As with the proposal of Lucifer in the preexistence to save all mankind, so with the doctrine of salvation by grace alone, without works, as it is taught in modern Christendom -- both concepts are false. There is no salvation in either of them. They both come from the same source; they are not of God’ (What Think Ye of Salvation by Grace p. 49; cf. Robert Millet, p. 73).

Marion Romney (LDS First Presidency) said, “This Church is the ensign on the mountain spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. It is the way, the truth, and the life” (Conference Report, April, 1961, pg. 119).

“So hear it all ye ends of the earth; if you ever enter into the kingdom of God, it is because Joseph Smith let you go there. This will apply to Jews and Gentiles, to the bond and free; to friends and foes; no man or woman in this generation will get a resurrection and be crowned without Joseph saying so. (Second president Brigham Young, Conference held on October 8, 1854)


The Bible -

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast” (Ephesians 2:4–9).

“being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” (Rom. 3:24). V.28 “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law”

“But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith” (Philippians 3:7–9).

“Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life” (Titus 3:5–7).

The Bible speaks of the grace of God through faith to be saved- there is no OTHER way.

As Robert Millet stated “...if everything we teach and believe is in the Bible, we wouldn't have needed a Joseph Smith, a Book of Mormon, a Doctrines and Covenants or a restoration!” (43 minute video, Source: http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/49068/6036%20)

Their spokesman for Church Public Affairs believes that the Bible is insufficient, and they defend this position today- nothing has changed.


The Bible-Jesus said in Jn.17:8 “I have given them your words you have given me.”

Jesus said “my sheep hear my voice, they will flee from the voice of stranger.”

John 8 “He who is of God hears God's words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

 

[TSJohnson]

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

I'm not interested in the book itself so much as the complete lack of physical evidence for the book's veracity and the repeated cover ups. This stuff has even been noticed by practicing Mormons, hence the current exodus from the religion. I'm not really sure why none of my points have been touched by either side here. All I've really gotten is this "ignore all that stuff and have faith anyway because it's true because it says so" thing. That doesn't work in politics. I don't see why it should work in religion.

 

[Avatar4321]

The whole side argument is kind of pointless since there isn't a god in the first place, IMHO. I was just pointing out that, out of all religions, this is one of the few we know to be false. Why is that? It makes, concrete, falsifiable claims. Either there were Jewish Indians fighting massive battles in prehistoric upstate New York or there weren't. Either the Book of Abraham is a record of Abraham's life in Egypt or it's a common pagan Egyptian funerary text. Either there are ruins and artifacts proving those ancient civilizations existed or there aren't any whatsoever because they didn't.

We know the true answers to these questions. It's not like normative Christianity, where every falsehood can be rephrased as a metaphor or not central to the core doctrine. It's not like Hinduism, where thousands of different sects have their own, equally valid interpretation of metaphysics and they all leave things like history and science alone. It makes very specific black and white claims about black and white subjects that we can go back and verify. These claims are simply false. It's not an attack or bashing or whatever. It's just the truth. You would have to utterly ignore what we know of the history of the pre-Columbian Americas and of Joseph Smith's life and character to believe otherwise.

The whole history of Mormonism, including Joseph Smith's criminal record, is most often hidden from the followers. This is incredibly easy to do if you look at it as a cult. You have to be able to look quite carefully at the organizational structure and how privacy is dealt with.
This is the missionary manual. You should look at communication with family. You might want to have a good read through starting at about page 20. You want to have a good look at how you are never alone.
https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/topics/missionary/MissionaryHandbook2006Navigate.pdf?lang=eng

one usually doesn't get a criminal record when the charges are dismissed. Considering that Jesus Christ has a criminal record and He had no sin, why would we expect a mere servant of Christ to be flawless?

Gandhi and mlk Jr also had criminal records. And they were actually guilty.

He was convicted. He's a fraud. I showed it to you. You fled the scene.

he was repeatedly exonerated. The doctrine is true. Which is why you have to attack the messenger

No, Avatar. He wasn't. It's a fraud. He was a con man. It's not an attack. It is simply the truth.

that's about as true as a superman comic.

a con man who sacrifices himself for his con? Who gets no benefit from it? Joseph was a poor man throughout his life and even received a revelation telling him he would never be wealthy. But not shocking, when he ran his shop he lost money giving products away to the poor.

then there are his teachings. They make no sense for someone insincere. Take the work for redemption of the dead. How does building temples to redeem our kindred dead pull a con on anyone when no mortal benefits from it?

yet it makes perfect sense for Joseph to inquire about the salvation of the dead when his brother Alivin died before the restoration.

when he was asked how he controlled so many people, he told them "i don't. I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves". That doesn't sound like someone trying to con people does it.

and then you have to completely ignore the the witnesses. Take the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. Many had arguments with Joseph smith. Yet even leaving the Church, they kept testifying that the Book of Mormon is true. David Whitmer heard a rumor that said he denied his witness. So he calls the press to reaffirm it. Oliver cowdery runs for political office and loses because he won't deny the Book of Mormon.

have you ever read the letters between these two men? They aren't letters of people in on a con. These are letters between people who had real experiences. Not someone involved in cons.

how about the 27 people who participated in the vision of the three degrees of glory? Or the people who were healed by Joseph and wilford woodruff in the swamp at commerce? Or the handful that saw the Father and the Son in the school of the prophets?

impressive con job. Especially when you don't get anything out of it

 

[Avatar4321]

because they've actually studied the Book of Mormon and taken the challenge to ask the Lord whether it's true. When the Lord tells you it is by the Holy Spirit, you tend to believe it. Makes it much easier to see through the caricature presented by those who dont understand the doctrine of Christ

You're pretty much admitting that the Book of Mormon is false and teaches false doctrines.
Reasons:

1) Have to study the Book of Mormon first to find truths

2) After studying the Book of Mormons, you has to take the challenge of testing its truths by asking a demon, pretending to be God, to let you know what is true. by asking a demon that pretends to be God

3) What you think is the Holy Spirit is actually a demon. This demon have power to influence man's will but no power to really convict the will. The demon's power of is mainly seduction. The demon is only able to seduce some people's will and they tend to believe in its lies. However, some people will not be seduced by the demon and refuses to believe its lies.

so God is a demon? Exactly how do you learn truth if it isn't through study and revelation from the Holy Spirit.

was it a demon that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Son of God?

the bible says to test all things and you say testing the Book of Mormon is demonic? Paul said that you can only learn the things of the Spirit by the Spirit.

I guarantee you that it isn't God encouraging you not to pray about the Book of Mormon. Because the Holy spirit encourages a man to pray in all thing.

or are you really so disbelieving that you don't think God the Father can answer your prayer? You really think praying to Him is to a demon?

your reasoning makes no sense. How is the bible any different? How would you know it is true if you don't ask the Lord? How can you know that Jesus is the Christ without the Spirit of prophesy? And how can you obtain a witness of that Spirit unless exercise faith and ask?

I know by the power of the Holy Spirit that Jesus is the Christ and that the Bible and Book of Mormon are true. Do demons now testify of Christ? Do they preach redemption through Jesus Christ? Can a house divides stand?

the Pharisees tried to convince the people that Christ cast out devils by the power of the devil. He didn't find that reasoning very convincing.

when we prophesy of Christ have we obtained they Spirit from a demon? When we heal the sick is that power a gift from the devil? Since when does the devil heal anyone? It's contrary to his nature.

read the Book of Mormon for yourself and you will learn more about Christ than anywhere else.

Yep. There are many anti-Christs and I believe the Book of Mormon teaches the worship of a false Christ.

Jesus of Nazareth is an anti Christ? That's a new one for me.

and you bases this off what? Not reading the Book of Mormon?

You believe in a false Jesus Christ, the primary meaning of anti-Christ.

The book of Mormon teaches the doctrines of demons.

so Jesus of Nazareth who the apostles testify to is a false Christ? And salvation through the blood of Christ is the doctrine of demons?

 

[Avatar4321]

Talking to a Mormon about religion is like talking to a Liberal about politics. You never get a straight answer.

and yet there are plenty of answers that are simply ignored while you rehash questions that were outdated decades ago

 

[Avatar4321]

And yet the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. And He testifies that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ. Why should we ignore these great witnesses from God because you say so?

Can you briefly tell of how the Holy Spirit testified Joseph Smith was a prophet?

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

His Word is the Bible, not the other books you guys have.

how would you know? You haven't read a word of it

 

[ninja007]

And yet the Holy Spirit testifies that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and Savior of the world. And He testifies that Joseph Smith was a prophet of Jesus Christ. Why should we ignore these great witnesses from God because you say so?

Can you briefly tell of how the Holy Spirit testified Joseph Smith was a prophet?

study His words, ask God, and the Spirit will testify to you as well

His Word is the Bible, not the other books you guys have.

how would you know? You haven't read a word of it

I do know- if you knew your Bible you would know that it is true and no other books supercede it or are equal to it.

 

[ninja007]

Contradictions Between the Book of Mormon and the Bible

By:



Luke P. Wilson

Copyright © 1999 Institute for Religious Research. All rights reserved.
There are many serious objections to the claim of Joseph Smith and the LDS church that the Book of Mormon is divinely inspired latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible. However, none are more significant than the numerous contradictions between Book of Mormon teaching and the Bible. This list is illustrative only, not exhaustive.


"The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture supplemental to the Bible."
1. The Book of Mormon teaches that little children are not capable of sin because they do not have a sinful nature (Moroni 8:8). In contrast, the Bible in Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). (This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost.*)

2. The Book of Mormon teaches that the disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind (2 Nephi 2:23-25). In contrast, the Bible specifically declares that Adam’s transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin and death in the human heart and throughout God’s perfect world (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 5:12; 8:20-21). There is no Biblical support for the view that Adam and Eve could only fulfill the command to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) by disobeying God’s command regarding the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). The Book of Mormon teaching that these divine commands are contradictory, and that God expected Adam and Eve to figure out that in reality He wanted them to break the latter command ("of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it") in order to keep the former ("be fruitful and multiply"), has no basis in logic or the Biblical text, and attributes equivocation to God.

3. The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God’s curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favoritism (James 2:1).

4. The Book of Mormon teaches that, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10).

5. According to the Book of Mormon, about 600 years before Christ, a Nephite prophet predicted that "many plain and precious parts" (1 Nephi 13:26-28) would be removed from the Bible. In contrast, from the Bible it is clear that during His earthly ministry, Jesus himself constantly quoted from the Old Testament Scriptures, and showed full confidence in their completeness and accurate transmission as they had survived down to His time. Jesus declared that "heaven and earth shall pass away, but my word shall not pass away" (Mark 13:31; see also Matthew 5:18), and promised His disciples who were to pen the New Testament that the Holy Ghost "shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26); Jesus further promised the apostles that they would "bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain" (John 15:16). These promises clearly imply that the fruit of the apostles — the New Testament Scriptures and the Christian church — would endure.

6. According to a Book of Mormon prophecy (Helaman 14:27), at the time of Christ’s crucifixion "darkness should cover the face of the whole earth for the space of three days." In contrast, the New Testament gospel accounts declare repeatedly that there was darkness for only three hours while Jesus was on the cross (Matthew 27:45; Mark 15:33; Luke 23:44).

An earlier prophecy in 1 Nephi 19:10 implies the three days of darkness will be more than regional in scope for it says this sign will be "unto those who inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the house of Israel." The darkness then would extend over the ocean to the islands and reach as far as Israel in the Middle East.

Book of Mormon references to the fulfillment of this prophecy, however, use wording that could be understood to mean the three days of darkness was only in the Americas, stating that the three days of darkness would be "over the face of the land." (3 Nephi 8:3ff; 10:9). This appears to be the position of the late Mormon General Authority B. H. Roberts in his book Studies of the Book of Mormon, p. 292). If this is the case, then this would resolve the apparent contradiction between the Bible and the Book of Mormon regarding what happened at the time of Christ's death, for we would have 3 hours of darkness in Israel and 3 days of darkness on the American continents. However, this would make the earlier prophecies of 1 Nephi and Helaman internally contradictory with later BOM references, since their phrasing of "the isles of the sea ... those who are of the house of Israel" and "the whole face of the whole earth" is difficult to understand as merely a localized time of darkness.

7. The Book of Mormon people are said to have observed "all things according to the law of Moses (2 Nephi 5:10; 25:24). However, although they are supposed to have been Hebrews, they were descendents of the tribe of Joseph (1 Nephi 5:17) or Manasseh (Alma 10:3), not the tribe of Levi and family line of Aaron, as the Law of Moses dictates (Numbers 3:10; Exodus 29:9; Numbers 18:1-7), so they would not have had a legitimate priesthood.

8. According to the Book of Mormon, there were many high priests serving at the same time (Mosiah 11:11; Alma 13:9-10; 46:6,38; Helaman 3:25) in the New World, among those it describes as Jewish immigrants from ancient Israel who "kept the law of Moses" (e.g., 2 Nephi 25:10; Jacob 4:5; Jarom 1:5). In contrast, it is clear from the Bible that only one individual at a time occupied the office of high priest under the Old Testament dispensation (see, for example Leviticus 21:10; Matthew 26:3; Hebrews 8:6-7). (The mention in Luke 3:2 of "Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests" is not a real exception -- in Christ’s time Israel was under the domination of the Romans, who intervened to change the high priest at will. That is, this office became a kind of "political football," rather than following the appointment process dictated in the Law of Moses. See John 18:13, which describes Annas as "father-in-law to Caiaphas, which was the high priest that same year.")

9. The people described in the Book of Mormon operated multiple temples (Alma 16:13; 23:2; 26:29). This violates the dictates of the Old Testament Scriptures on two counts: First, God commanded Israel to build only one temple to reflect that fact that there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5-6). Second, the one legitimate temple was to be built in Jerusalem (Zion), the location designated by God (The Old Testament is filled with explicit references to God choosing Jerusalem [Zion] as the place where "His name would dwell" in the temple: for example, 1 Kings 8:44,48; 11:13,32,36; 14:21; 2 Kings 21:7; 23:27; 1 Chronicles 28:4; 2 Chronicles 6:6; 7:12,16; Psalm 78:68-69; Isaiah 18:7.

10. The most common biblical terms used to describe the Old Testament priesthood, temple and appointed feasts, are entirely missing from the Book of Mormon. Here are 10 examples of such biblical terms with their frequencies, that never appear once in the Book of Mormon:

• "laver" (13 times in Bible)
• "incense" (121 times in Bible)
• "ark of the covenant" (48 times in Bible)
• "sons of Aaron" (97 times in Bible)
• "mercy seat" (23 in Bible)
• "day of atonement" (21 times in Bible)
• "feast of tabernacles" (17 times in Bible)
• "passover" (59 times in Bible)
• "house of the LORD" (627 in Bible)
• "Aaron" – this name appears 48 times in the Book of Mormon, but never in reference to the biblical Aaron or the Aaronic priesthood

Conclusion: The contradictions between the Book of Mormon and the Bible constitute a most serious obstacle to accepting the Book of Mormon as Latter-day scripture that is supplemental to the Bible. The Bible came first, not the Book of Mormon. And whereas the Bible is organically linked to the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ by extensive surviving manuscript evidence going back as far as A.D. 125-30, the Book of Mormon is wholly lacking in any such evidences of ancient origin. Is it not reasonable, therefore, to make the Bible the standard for judging the Book of Mormon, and not the other way around? If we accept the Bible as our "measuring stick" for spiritual truth, the Book of Mormon must be rejected.


Mormons In Transition - Contradictions Between the Book of Mormon and the Bible

the evidence is right in front of you avatar. This is but a small sample.

 

[ninja007]

for Mormons with doubts and questions, here are some former LDS members testimonies...


2012 UVU Mormon Studies Conference - John Dehlin on Why Mormons Question - YouTube

Long version.

Why People Leave the LDS Church ( Mormon ) - YouTube

Another short presentation below is from a former Mormon of 40 years.

A study is done on Mormons who leave their faith and why! - YouTube

More from Shawn McCraney can be found at his web site below.

Heart of the Matter Mormonism meets Biblical Christianity face to face

 

[onefour1]

1. The Book of Mormon teaches that little children are not capable of sin because they do not have a sinful nature (Moroni 8:8). In contrast, the Bible in Psalm 51:5 clearly teaches that we have sinful nature from birth: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (NIV). (This does not mean that those who die in infancy are lost.*)

It is one thing to be born with a sinful nature and another thing to be held accountable for it. Little children do not reach the age of accountability until the age of 8 years old.

The Lord through his infinite atonement has swallowed up all sin of children who have not yet reached the age of accountability.

Read what Moroni says and see if you do not agree:

Moroni 8:4-30
4 And now, my son, I speak unto you concerning that which grieveth me exceedingly; for it grieveth me that there should disputations rise among you.
5 For, if I have learned the truth, there have been disputations among you concerning the baptism of your little children.
6 And now, my son, I desire that ye should labor diligently, that this gross error should be removed from among you; for, for this intent I have written this epistle.
7 For immediately after I had learned these things of you I inquired of the Lord concerning the matter. And the word of the Lord came to me by the power of the Holy Ghost, saying:
8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.
9 And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.
10 Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.
11 And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.
12 But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!
13 Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.
14 Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.
15 For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.
16 Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.
17 And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.
18 For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.
19 Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.
20 And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.
21 Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.
22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.
25 And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;
26 And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God.
27 Behold, my son, I will write unto you again if I go not out soon against the Lamanites. Behold, the pride of this nation, or the people of the Nephites, hath proven their destruction except they should repent.
28 Pray for them, my son, that repentance may come unto them. But behold, I fear lest the Spirit hath ceased striving with them; and in this part of the land they are also seeking to put down all power and authority which cometh from God; and they are denying the Holy Ghost.
29 And after rejecting so great a knowledge, my son, they must perish soon, unto the fulfilling of the prophecies which were spoken by the prophets, as well as the words of our Savior himself.
30 Farewell, my son, until I shall write unto you, or shall meet you again. Amen.


Peter, the apostle of Jesus stated also:
1 Peter 3:
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

The like figure of 8 souls saved by water. This is likened to the salvation of children being baptized by water at the age of 8.

 

[onefour1]

2. The Book of Mormon teaches that the disobedience of Adam and Eve in eating the forbidden fruit was necessary so that they could have children and bring joy to mankind (2 Nephi 2:23-25). In contrast, the Bible specifically declares that Adam’s transgression was a sinful act of rebellion that unleashed the power of sin and death in the human heart and throughout God’s perfect world (Genesis 3:16-19; Romans 5:12; 8:20-21). There is no Biblical support for the view that Adam and Eve could only fulfill the command to "be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28) by disobeying God’s command regarding the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:17). The Book of Mormon teaching that these divine commands are contradictory, and that God expected Adam and Eve to figure out that in reality He wanted them to break the latter command ("of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it") in order to keep the former ("be fruitful and multiply"), has no basis in logic or the Biblical text, and attributes equivocation to God.

A few preliminary questions: 1. Does God not know all things past, present and future? 2. Did God place Adam and Eve, who were in a state of innocence not knowing good from evil, on the earth and allowed these two innocent beings, who knew nothing of good and evil, to be tempted of the devil? Did God not know the outcome of the situation before he put them there? I submit to you that he knew very well that they would partake of the forbidden fruit and fall victim to the temptations of the devil. So why did God allow the devil to be there to tempt them if he didn't want them to fall? The truth is that he placed them in that position knowing the future that they would both fall. He gave them their free will to choose but he also knew that they would succumb to the temptation and fall. Weak innocent beings fall when they come before a powerful temptation. God knew this before he even placed them is such a position. He knew they would fall and so he planned for this fall by foreordaining Jesus Christ to be a savior before the foundation of this earth.

1 Peter 1:18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Moses 5:57
57 For they would not hearken unto his voice, nor believe on his Only Begotten Son, even him whom he declared should come in the meridian of time, who was prepared from before the foundation of the world.

One might ask why God did not simply create us to be perfect? The reason for this is that man himself is coeternal with God. In other words, there is a part of man which we call intelligence that is as self existent as God himself. Because of this self existent nature of man, man could not be created out of nothing and could not be created perfect.

D&C 93:29
29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

This is the reason man needed to come to this earth and learn to become more like his Father in Heaven and progress. God knew before he ever placed Adam and Eve into the garden that they would fall. But God, being a person with total free will and wanting his children to be more like himself, knew that giving his children free will too was the only way for them to learn to choose in and of themselves to be good beings. God is a good being by choice. Nobody makes him do what he does. If we are to be like him, we need to learn to choose good over evil. Only those who do so will be saved into the kingdom of heaven.