Why Do Republicans Pretend the War On Poverty was supposed to END POVERTY?

[rightwinger]

Education is wasted money?

We do not need a dept of education. Let the state's manage education.

States are fucking up education, not the dept of education

Bullshit Shlomo.

Federal government only provides 10% of educational funding

The remainder comes from state and local funding depending on which state you live in. Now, guess which states have the most fucked up educational systems....those run by the party that despises education

See, here you liberals go claiming that simply throwing money at a problem will fix it.

First of all, a large portion of any new money given to a school goes straight towards salary increases and very little goes to actually you know educating children.

Second of all, other nations around the world spend FAR less per child with better results.

You REALLY want to fix the education system in this country? The solution is there.

1. Disband teacher's unions and allow teachers to be hired, paid, and fired based on the job they do.

2. Allow schools the authority to permanently remove disruptive children.

3. Don't force schools to accept children who are so handicapped that it is obvious that the school is nothing more than a baby sitter. One such child can absolutely bankrupt an entire school system, and the school has no choice but to "educate" that child regardless of cost. Yes, that sounds mean but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and one student should not be allowed to cost 1,000 or more students their education.

4. Dual track system from 7th grade up. College bound and trade bound, so that kids who excel aren't held back by kids who don't , and kids who struggle aren't left behind for the sake of everyone else.

5. Pay cash bonuses to high school graduates. Yep, that's right, if you graduate high school, on either track, you get CASH from Uncle Sam. If you graduate with a 2.0 GPA you get $50K, If you graduate with a 3.0 you get $100K, if you graduate with a 4.0 you get $250K. (by the way this is coupled with doing away with Pel grants and guaranteed student loans which mostly only serve to drive up the cost of a college education)

Schools in this country FIXED. Next problem?

Identify any state where educational performance has gone up after they slashed educational funding

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Whats the solution? And why doesnt anyone else know it?

Abolish the DOE, wittle the control down all the way to as local as possible. The more localized the school system, the more accountability. That's at least part of the solution.

Can I ask why abolish the DOE? I mean in real terms and not just feelings type of stuff. Is there anyway to fix it or no?

Ecause tgey do not do shit and the money spent on a useless bureaucracy can be funneled into buying books or something useful like that.

Books? What god damned century are you living in? Any school still buying text books should have their entire administration strung up.

Give every child a tablet in 7th grade that contains all their "text books" for the school year, when they enter 8th grade, those "books" are deleted and their new books are installed, etc etc. How many MILLIONS of dollars a year would that save country wide?

My tablet cost $600.00. How much would that cost. And remember we are educating half of Mexico. You really want to buy Mexico tablets?

That's odd, our school district DID in fact just buy a load of tablets. 500 of them in fact, at $60 each. Are they top of the line Galaxy Tabs? No. Do they do the job they were bought to do? Yes. We figure they will last 3 years. So that is $20 a year per student. Pretty cheap investment.

And the question of educating half of Mexico is an entirely different subject than textbooks versus tablets.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

We do not need a dept of education. Let the state's manage education.

States are fucking up education, not the dept of education

Bullshit Shlomo.

Federal government only provides 10% of educational funding

The remainder comes from state and local funding depending on which state you live in. Now, guess which states have the most fucked up educational systems....those run by the party that despises education

See, here you liberals go claiming that simply throwing money at a problem will fix it.

First of all, a large portion of any new money given to a school goes straight towards salary increases and very little goes to actually you know educating children.

Second of all, other nations around the world spend FAR less per child with better results.

You REALLY want to fix the education system in this country? The solution is there.

1. Disband teacher's unions and allow teachers to be hired, paid, and fired based on the job they do.

2. Allow schools the authority to permanently remove disruptive children.

3. Don't force schools to accept children who are so handicapped that it is obvious that the school is nothing more than a baby sitter. One such child can absolutely bankrupt an entire school system, and the school has no choice but to "educate" that child regardless of cost. Yes, that sounds mean but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and one student should not be allowed to cost 1,000 or more students their education.

4. Dual track system from 7th grade up. College bound and trade bound, so that kids who excel aren't held back by kids who don't , and kids who struggle aren't left behind for the sake of everyone else.

5. Pay cash bonuses to high school graduates. Yep, that's right, if you graduate high school, on either track, you get CASH from Uncle Sam. If you graduate with a 2.0 GPA you get $50K, If you graduate with a 3.0 you get $100K, if you graduate with a 4.0 you get $250K. (by the way this is coupled with doing away with Pel grants and guaranteed student loans which mostly only serve to drive up the cost of a college education)

Schools in this country FIXED. Next problem?

Identify any state where educational performance has gone up after they slashed educational funding

I don't have to , the onus is on you to prove that educational performance goes UP when spending increases, even in a majority of cases, let alone in every case.

In fact, here's a pretty interesting article, WITH research that seems to indicate exactly what I'm saying. Increased spending does NOT result in increased performance.

Study: No Link Between School Spending, Student Achievement

Once again, a study shows that the liberal plan of just spending more money does not solve shit.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

See, here you liberals go claiming that simply throwing money at a problem will fix it.

First of all, a large portion of any new money given to a school goes straight towards salary increases and very little goes to actually you know educating children.

Second of all, other nations around the world spend FAR less per child with better results.

You REALLY want to fix the education system in this country? The solution is there.

1. Disband teacher's unions and allow teachers to be hired, paid, and fired based on the job they do.

2. Allow schools the authority to permanently remove disruptive children.

3. Don't force schools to accept children who are so handicapped that it is obvious that the school is nothing more than a baby sitter. One such child can absolutely bankrupt an entire school system, and the school has no choice but to "educate" that child regardless of cost. Yes, that sounds mean but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and one student should not be allowed to cost 1,000 or more students their education.

4. Dual track system from 7th grade up. College bound and trade bound, so that kids who excel aren't held back by kids who don't , and kids who struggle aren't left behind for the sake of everyone else.

5. Pay cash bonuses to high school graduates. Yep, that's right, if you graduate high school, on either track, you get CASH from Uncle Sam. If you graduate with a 2.0 GPA you get $50K, If you graduate with a 3.0 you get $100K, if you graduate with a 4.0 you get $250K. (by the way this is coupled with doing away with Pel grants and guaranteed student loans which mostly only serve to drive up the cost of a college education)

Schools in this country FIXED. Next problem?

Horrible ideas. I'm sorry. We will have to just agree to disagree on this one.

I completely support your right to be wrong.

I'm not wrong. My ideas haven't been given a shot yet... The DOE and give away supporters are the ones that keep failing and yet try the same old stupid things with different spins and never get that they start off from a fundamentally stupid point in their thinking on this issue.

What's that saying? Crazy is doing the same thing over and over with the same result and continuing to do it?

The DoE as a a federal oversight is necessary. The fact is we have too many states who would do God knows what if the feds didn't tell them "no you can't do that"

That isn't to say that it shouldn't be paired down and have some of its authority taken away; but the blanket statement "disband the DoE" is silly.

No it isn't. You are just too busy trying to be 'fair and balanced' to recognize the damage the DOE has done, Bill O'Reilly.

Give me a break. Federal oversight is a necessity.

 

[OffensivelyOpenMinded]

Horrible ideas. I'm sorry. We will have to just agree to disagree on this one.

I completely support your right to be wrong.

I'm not wrong. My ideas haven't been given a shot yet... The DOE and give away supporters are the ones that keep failing and yet try the same old stupid things with different spins and never get that they start off from a fundamentally stupid point in their thinking on this issue.

What's that saying? Crazy is doing the same thing over and over with the same result and continuing to do it?

The DoE as a a federal oversight is necessary. The fact is we have too many states who would do God knows what if the feds didn't tell them "no you can't do that"

That isn't to say that it shouldn't be paired down and have some of its authority taken away; but the blanket statement "disband the DoE" is silly.

No it isn't. You are just too busy trying to be 'fair and balanced' to recognize the damage the DOE has done, Bill O'Reilly.

Give me a break. Federal oversight is a necessity.

No it is not. What makes you think that?

 

[Katzndogz]

Money does not improve educational performance. It's been proven.

Money and School Performance: Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment

 

[Arianrhod]

Where is California?

Unintentionally funniest post in a discussion of education.

 

[Arianrhod]

Money does not improve educational performance. It's been proven.

Money and School Performance: Lessons from the Kansas City Desegregation Experiment

Then what's your solution?

 

[Fair&Balanced]

I completely support your right to be wrong.

I'm not wrong. My ideas haven't been given a shot yet... The DOE and give away supporters are the ones that keep failing and yet try the same old stupid things with different spins and never get that they start off from a fundamentally stupid point in their thinking on this issue.

What's that saying? Crazy is doing the same thing over and over with the same result and continuing to do it?

The DoE as a a federal oversight is necessary. The fact is we have too many states who would do God knows what if the feds didn't tell them "no you can't do that"

That isn't to say that it shouldn't be paired down and have some of its authority taken away; but the blanket statement "disband the DoE" is silly.

No it isn't. You are just too busy trying to be 'fair and balanced' to recognize the damage the DOE has done, Bill O'Reilly.

Give me a break. Federal oversight is a necessity.

No it is not. What makes you think that?

A person in Mississippi should expect to receive the same level of education as a person in New York, for example.

That is ALL the DoE was originally meant to do, ensure that all states meant minimum standards. But of course as all government bureaucracies do, they grew out of hand.

I mean your argument COULD be stretched to include state DoEs. Why is a state telling local cities how to run their schools? Well the answer , of course , is because a student in Podunk , GA deserves the same level of education as a student in Athens, GA who deserves the same level of education as a student in Beverly Hills, CA.

I'm not arguing that the DoE shouldn't lose quite a bit of power over states, they should, but the oversight itself must remain.

 

[OffensivelyOpenMinded]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

 

[Fair&Balanced]

What the Government can do about poverty

- Provide assistance for housing, food, healthcare
- Provide educational and jobs training
- Offer business incentives to locate in impoverished regions
- increase minimum wage

What "Job creators" can do about poverty

- Pay salaries that workers can support themselves on
- Create new jobs
- Provide a pathway to better career opportunities


Guess which entity is failing our poor?

The answer of course is government, since they have created conditions that don't allow businesses to do anything of the three things you wish they would do.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

 

[OffensivelyOpenMinded]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems?

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

Where is it said in the constitution that it's the federal government's job to have anything to do with education PERIOD?

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems?

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

Where is it said in the constitution that it's the federal government's job to have anything to do with education PERIOD?

Read this article

The History Of Federal Government In Public Education: Where Have We Been And How Did We Get Here?

Pretty interesting and tells the history of the national government being involved in education LONG before the DoE became an entity.

 

[OffensivelyOpenMinded]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems?

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

Where is it said in the constitution that it's the federal government's job to have anything to do with education PERIOD?

Read this article

The History Of Federal Government In Public Education: Where Have We Been And How Did We Get Here?

Pretty interesting and tells the history of the national government being involved in education LONG before the DoE became an entity.

There is no constitutional right to education in this country. The Department Of Education is unconstitutional. It should be abolished for that reason alone. You want a constitutional right to education for all? Then try to ammend the constitution.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems?

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

Where is it said in the constitution that it's the federal government's job to have anything to do with education PERIOD?

Read this article

The History Of Federal Government In Public Education: Where Have We Been And How Did We Get Here?

Pretty interesting and tells the history of the national government being involved in education LONG before the DoE became an entity.

There is no constitutional right to education in this country. The Department Of Education is unconstitutional. It should be abolished for that reason alone. You want a constitutional right to education for all? Then try to ammend the constitution.

Well, you are right and you are wrong.


You are right in that the government isn't required to provide an education. You are wrong in that they are also not PROHIBITED from doing so. You see, the 10th Amendment cuts both ways.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

You see, the states have GIVEN the federal government the power to nationalize education. if you don't like that you are welcome to fight to change the over riding opinion of the 50 states.

Now since we've determine that the government DOES have the authority to regulate education, THAT then brings the 14th Amendment into play which means all states MUST provide an equal education to everyone.

By the way, I really appreciate you taking the time to read the link I provided, it really shows that you are interested in a conversation

/ sarcasm

 

[OffensivelyOpenMinded]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems?

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems? What right do the feds have to say what is and isn't education?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

Where is it said in the constitution that it's the federal government's job to have anything to do with education PERIOD?

Read this article

The History Of Federal Government In Public Education: Where Have We Been And How Did We Get Here?

Pretty interesting and tells the history of the national government being involved in education LONG before the DoE became an entity.

There is no constitutional right to education in this country. The Department Of Education is unconstitutional. It should be abolished for that reason alone. You want a constitutional right to education for all? Then try to ammend the constitution.

Well, you are right and you are wrong.


You are right in that the government isn't required to provide an education. You are wrong in that they are also not PROHIBITED from doing so. You see, the 10th Amendment cuts both ways.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

You see, the states have GIVEN the federal government the power to nationalize education. if you don't like that you are welcome to fight to change the over riding opinion of the 50 states.

Now since we've determine that the government DOES have the authority to regulate education, THAT then brings the 14th Amendment into play which means all states MUST provide an equal education to everyone.

By the way, I really appreciate you taking the time to read the link I provided, it really shows that you are interested in a conversation

/ sarcasm

The federal government has no authority, the states have the authority in all of this. The states MUST do nothing the feds say on education if they do not wish to. Go ahead and google it if you'd like.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Why do we need a bunch of bureaucrats from thousands of miles away to have 'oversight' over how the States and localities choose to set up and run their school systems?

What fucking part of " to ensure parity in education" do you not understand? This isn't a difficult concept.

Where is it said in the constitution that it's the federal government's job to have anything to do with education PERIOD?

Read this article

The History Of Federal Government In Public Education: Where Have We Been And How Did We Get Here?

Pretty interesting and tells the history of the national government being involved in education LONG before the DoE became an entity.

There is no constitutional right to education in this country. The Department Of Education is unconstitutional. It should be abolished for that reason alone. You want a constitutional right to education for all? Then try to ammend the constitution.

Well, you are right and you are wrong.


You are right in that the government isn't required to provide an education. You are wrong in that they are also not PROHIBITED from doing so. You see, the 10th Amendment cuts both ways.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people

You see, the states have GIVEN the federal government the power to nationalize education. if you don't like that you are welcome to fight to change the over riding opinion of the 50 states.

Now since we've determine that the government DOES have the authority to regulate education, THAT then brings the 14th Amendment into play which means all states MUST provide an equal education to everyone.

By the way, I really appreciate you taking the time to read the link I provided, it really shows that you are interested in a conversation

/ sarcasm

The federal government has no authority, the states have the authority in all of this. The states MUST do nothing the feds say on education if they do not wish to. Go ahead and google it if you'd like.

Correct, the states do not HAVE to do anything. They can choose to NOT follow federal guidelines and NOT receive federal funding. Who's argued different?

 

[Againsheila]

In another thread on poverty republicans or conservatives kept saying that the war on poverty "hasnt worked".

When asked what they thought the goal of the war on poverty was many stated the usual "Liberals said..." followed by impossible things never said by anyone.

Of course if you believe the war on poverty was supposed to make everyone rich, I have bad news for you.


If you believed the war on poverty was supposed to end poor people existing, no wonder you think it "failed"

If you thought that the war on poverty meant everyone would live like Mr Burns from the Simpsons, I understand your frustration.

Good grief, did you ever get it wrong. The war on poverty was suppose to end poverty, it didn't.

 

[rightwinger]

States are fucking up education, not the dept of education

Bullshit Shlomo.

Federal government only provides 10% of educational funding

The remainder comes from state and local funding depending on which state you live in. Now, guess which states have the most fucked up educational systems....those run by the party that despises education

See, here you liberals go claiming that simply throwing money at a problem will fix it.

First of all, a large portion of any new money given to a school goes straight towards salary increases and very little goes to actually you know educating children.

Second of all, other nations around the world spend FAR less per child with better results.

You REALLY want to fix the education system in this country? The solution is there.

1. Disband teacher's unions and allow teachers to be hired, paid, and fired based on the job they do.

2. Allow schools the authority to permanently remove disruptive children.

3. Don't force schools to accept children who are so handicapped that it is obvious that the school is nothing more than a baby sitter. One such child can absolutely bankrupt an entire school system, and the school has no choice but to "educate" that child regardless of cost. Yes, that sounds mean but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and one student should not be allowed to cost 1,000 or more students their education.

4. Dual track system from 7th grade up. College bound and trade bound, so that kids who excel aren't held back by kids who don't , and kids who struggle aren't left behind for the sake of everyone else.

5. Pay cash bonuses to high school graduates. Yep, that's right, if you graduate high school, on either track, you get CASH from Uncle Sam. If you graduate with a 2.0 GPA you get $50K, If you graduate with a 3.0 you get $100K, if you graduate with a 4.0 you get $250K. (by the way this is coupled with doing away with Pel grants and guaranteed student loans which mostly only serve to drive up the cost of a college education)

Schools in this country FIXED. Next problem?

Identify any state where educational performance has gone up after they slashed educational funding

I don't have to , the onus is on you to prove that educational performance goes UP when spending increases, even in a majority of cases, let alone in every case.

In fact, here's a pretty interesting article, WITH research that seems to indicate exactly what I'm saying. Increased spending does NOT result in increased performance.

Study: No Link Between School Spending, Student Achievement

Once again, a study shows that the liberal plan of just spending more money does not solve shit.

States that have higher expenditures on schools get better performance out of their students

Can't say the same for red states that skimp on spending