Why do the God-haters persist?

[sealybobo]

I'm not assuming your brother, or anyone else, can't be good without religion. What I'm saying is that there's no evidence he or most anyone else would be better without religion, which is a pretty good paraphrase of your argument.

SEEK TO KNOW GOD not religion,satan loves "false religions" there are thousdands worldwide but there is only ONE TRUE GOD and your purpose in life is to seek to know GOD!!!

Yea, and one day maybe you'll realize christianity is just another one of them. It isn't any more believable than the other made up religions. Don't you think if you were born in Saudi Arabia instead of being a stupid chrstian you'd just be a dumb muslim?

 

[sealybobo]

Ok, I too see my brother and how religion hasn't hurt him or his family in fact it has made him a better person, blabla. I get all that. But why assume he would not be a good person without religion? I have a feeling religion played a big part in him being a good person but maybe in the new world we'll have gatherings like churches only without the fairytales? I heard an atheist say the other day, "I find it insulting that you think us human's can't be civilized and good without a made up story". I'm paraphrasing. And just look at the history of man under jew, christian and muslim rule. Tell me they're doing a good job?

Then the atheist I was listening to said that all the smart scientists who are atheists and do such great things find it insulting and ironic that all those great people are doing such great things and they don't believe while religion peddles it's lies to the poor and dumb.

A lot of great scientific theories are not conclusive, yet. But we can measure this. We see people are moving away from god. But unfortunately as the survey I posted earlier shows you can't be president unless you believe in a fairytale. That alone is all the proof I need religion is holding us back. Can you believe it??? You MUST believe in a fairytale or you can't lead any nation on earth. Fucked up.

I'm not assuming your brother, or anyone else, can't be good without religion. What I'm saying is that there's no evidence he or most anyone else would be better without religion, which is a pretty good paraphrase of your argument.

There is proof everywhere you look. Just like religious people say, "if ye look ye shall find".

 

[sealybobo]

Has embryonic stem cell research been government funded since Bush left office, and if so, what breakthroughs has it attained? Is the US the only country capable of doing stem cell research? The last I remember reading anything about it, the research was actually moving away from embryonic stem cells somewhat because of new possibilities with adult stem cells. And to be clear, I am all for using the embryonic cells that are available rather than simply destroying them.

Define 'severely limited' abortion rights. More, explain how the GOP doing something equates to religion; since the vast majority of people identify with some sort of religious belief, most Dems as well as Repubs are going to be religious. So party affiliation is not an indicator of religious belief, at best it may be an indicator of the type of religious belief.

I didn't 'forget' that Catholic run insurance companies don't want to cover birth control. I don't really care. There's no reason I have to use a Catholic insurance company, or even use insurance to get birth control.

None of these are bans on either abortion, stem cell research (and you must mean embryonic stem cell research), or birth control.

You are trying to make your dislike of religion, something we share, into more than it actually is. Religion has done bad and good in the world. Many, perhaps most, of the greatest inventions and scientific breakthroughs in human history have been made by people with religious belief. While it's possible that those things would have happened faster, that mankind would have progressed further, without religion, there is no evidence of it.

As I said before, you can easily argue that certain types or iterations of religious belief have been detrimental and held society back, but to try and say that all religious belief does so is backed by nothing.

I had a day off and saw two stories that made me think of you. One was on how stem cell is going to help spinal cord injuries. On behalf of all spinal cord patients, you and your god can go fuck yourselves.

And I thought this might interest you: Americans Would Rather Vote For A Philandering, Pot-Smoking President Than An Atheist One

I've long thought it unfortunate that religious belief seems to be a requirement for the presidency. However, considering my cynicism when it comes to politicians, I don't actually think it's holding us back in any way.

What do you mean? I think our corrupt and religious politicians is a great example of how maybe we'd be better off if we weren't run by a bunch of greedy ignorant stupid fools. Look at every greedy ignorant politician and what do they all have in common? Democrat or Republican. What is the ONE thing they all have in common. They all believe in Jesus and 99% of them are christians. Do you think they are good people who should be leading our nation? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

 

[sealybobo]

Has embryonic stem cell research been government funded since Bush left office, and if so, what breakthroughs has it attained? Is the US the only country capable of doing stem cell research? The last I remember reading anything about it, the research was actually moving away from embryonic stem cells somewhat because of new possibilities with adult stem cells. And to be clear, I am all for using the embryonic cells that are available rather than simply destroying them.

Define 'severely limited' abortion rights. More, explain how the GOP doing something equates to religion; since the vast majority of people identify with some sort of religious belief, most Dems as well as Repubs are going to be religious. So party affiliation is not an indicator of religious belief, at best it may be an indicator of the type of religious belief.

I didn't 'forget' that Catholic run insurance companies don't want to cover birth control. I don't really care. There's no reason I have to use a Catholic insurance company, or even use insurance to get birth control.

None of these are bans on either abortion, stem cell research (and you must mean embryonic stem cell research), or birth control.

You are trying to make your dislike of religion, something we share, into more than it actually is. Religion has done bad and good in the world. Many, perhaps most, of the greatest inventions and scientific breakthroughs in human history have been made by people with religious belief. While it's possible that those things would have happened faster, that mankind would have progressed further, without religion, there is no evidence of it.

As I said before, you can easily argue that certain types or iterations of religious belief have been detrimental and held society back, but to try and say that all religious belief does so is backed by nothing.

I had a day off and saw two stories that made me think of you. One was on how stem cell is going to help spinal cord injuries. On behalf of all spinal cord patients, you and your god can go fuck yourselves.

And I thought this might interest you: Americans Would Rather Vote For A Philandering, Pot-Smoking President Than An Atheist One

Clearly you are going to argue based on whatever strawman or prejudice you want, rather than argue with what I say.

I don't have a god. I've told you multiple times I am not a believer. You seem to find it impossible to accept that a person could not believe yet also not blame religion for all of man's ills.

Here, as I said earlier, this is a video of me having a trifixion carved into my back :
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYdGYEdjViQ"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYdGYEdjViQ[/ame]

But you'll probably continue to assume I'm a Christian, or at least a believer in one of the Abrahamic religions, right?

Oh, and I also said that I'm all for using the embryonic stem cells from discarded embryos rather than simply destroying them.

Care to rethink your attempted insult?

The argument goes something like, “of course atheism is bad for the world, just look at what Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot did in the name of atheism.”

The conclusion does not follow from the premises, and this is why:
It assumes factually that these three personalities were indeed atheists, that they were indeed evil, and that their evil was informed by their atheism. Even if the first two of these sub premises were agreed upon, and it seems reasonable to do so, there is no reason to believe that their atheism informed their evil actions. In fact, there is ample evidence to suggest that at least two of the three personalities were significantly influenced by religion, specifically Christianity, early in their lives.

As an ad hominem argument, the Hitler/Stalin/Pot argument is typically a “you too,” made in response to the claim that religion is responsible for the deaths of millions through the inquisition, Crusades, genocides, New World invasion, etc.
Never has a causal effect been demonstrated by any historian (much less a theist in a debate) between atheism and the actions of, say, Stalin. Stalin ordered the deaths of thousands because he deemed them a threat to his government. Indeed, on could easily argue that Stalin’s position was that he “replaced” God and inserted himself as the national deity with statues and portraits in all public (and many private) lands and buildings. Those that carried out his death warrants did so because they believed in Stalin –because they “worshiped” him.

There are no gulags or concentration camps in recorded history that were designed to fulfill a “lack of belief” in something, which is what atheism is. None were constructed to destroy lives out of reason or rational thought, which is what informs the atheistic conclusion.

Myths of Atheism: Hitler/Stalin/Pot Were Evil Because of Atheism | Breaking Spells

I'll give you this though. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of the politicians were really not christians and just say they are because you have to in order to get elected. I think a lot of illuminati don't believe in god. Ayn Rand is a god to republicans. She didn't believe in god. This is why I think it's odd that the right's economics don't mesh with their religion at all. Feed the poor? Fuck no. Heal the sick? Only if they have insurance.

 

[sealybobo]

SATAN IS A LIAR and the father of liars!!! and you?? Best you count the cost of being a puppet,tool fool of satan!!

Satan is a myth, and you need to be on meds.

Sadly, the Atheists are even worse than people like you are.

Why are we worse?

 

[emilynghiem]

Hi sealybobo:
1. RE:

I'm not assuming your brother, or anyone else, can't be good without religion. What I'm saying is that there's no evidence he or most anyone else would be better without religion, which is a pretty good paraphrase of your argument.

There is proof everywhere you look. Just like religious people say, "if ye look ye shall find".

1. For those who think "religions" do more harm than good,
I think this might change if people understood the process of "spiritual healing" which is natural and can be studied scientifically.

For one, the Christian prayers for deliverance from "demonic" voices and severely damaging and dangerous criminal addiction and mental and physical sickness
have saved lives that could not be helped with "just medicine alone" but required
a change in the person's ability to heal and to receive or comply with treatment.

If you count the people whose lives are saved, whose relationships and the good they can do for the world when they not only regain function but prosper in serving others,
I believe that would exceed the damages injustice and abuses caused by LACK of conscience.

For the negative consequences of abuse, these have an end because people cannot tolerate suffering and injustice, and will work and fight for change to correct the problems.

For the positive repercussions, these continue to multiply; whatever good is derived is then invested in the next person, relationship, generation or stage of growth, so that humanity improves and advances.

So I have more faith in the good that comes from things, while the bad is finite and has an end.

I had a day off and saw two stories that made me think of you. One was on how stem cell is going to help spinal cord injuries. On behalf of all spinal cord patients, you and your god can go fuck yourselves.

And I thought this might interest you: Americans Would Rather Vote For A Philandering, Pot-Smoking President Than An Atheist One

I've long thought it unfortunate that religious belief seems to be a requirement for the presidency. However, considering my cynicism when it comes to politicians, I don't actually think it's holding us back in any way.

What do you mean? I think our corrupt and religious politicians is a great example of how maybe we'd be better off if we weren't run by a bunch of greedy ignorant stupid fools. Look at every greedy ignorant politician and what do they all have in common? Democrat or Republican. What is the ONE thing they all have in common. They all believe in Jesus and 99% of them are christians. Do you think they are good people who should be leading our nation? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

2. Hey don't forget me. I am Christian by faith, and I work with a lot of good people who are trying to combine efforts to overcome the problems of abuses and waste going on now. Many of my Christian friends are the ones with faith to forgive and keep working on corrections. I know a LOT of people who would make great public officials and leaders, but first we have to organize the teamwork and groundwork, so by the time they serve on higher levels of govt, they don't fall into cracks or traps over divisive issues that should be resolved first before building public policy, reforms and programs.

As for the Christians who may be bad examples of corrupt politicians,
as long as they commit to follow the laws, then when it comes time for rebuke and correction IN PERSON, these followers will respond and there can be justice.

I have no problem working things out with people who commit with faith to the laws.
But most of the successful work to correct problems is done in person, not in public in front of others. (for example, when Herman Cain was addressed IN PERSON about statements he made about Muslims that were unfair, he accepted the correction and apologized; so did Ted Nugent when his peers sought to correct him, he accepted their advice and apologized in public, explaining how these were better people helping him. But when these same people are 'attacked by opponents in the public media' then they don't respond. So of course they look like hypocrites.)

Most of the problems come from bullying over conflicts "in public" to make a show.

So if you remove all that pecking order "alpha male/head of the pack" mentality,
and start treating people as equal peers with equal responsibility to fix problems
together, as partners or in teams, then you get different response and output.

if we rewarded, hired, and elected people to mediate, coordinate, and SOLVE problems then maybe
the Christian leaders with faith that issues and relations can be reconciled would get to demonstrate those skills.
People without unifying faith would not even believe in the process or positive outcome, much less leading it.

 

[emilynghiem]

SATAN IS A LIAR and the father of liars!!! and you?? Best you count the cost of being a puppet,tool fool of satan!!

Satan is a myth, and you need to be on meds.

Sadly, the Atheists are even worse than people like you are.

Why are we worse?

I think it depends on the person, not the label.

I know Atheists who are very forgiving and committed to understanding and fairness,
so they are easy to work with to resolve things truthfully and justly
compared with religious people who are NOT forgiving and run into conflicts they aren't willing to work to resolve.

If you look at the forgiveness factor, that is what determines if people can deal
with biases and differences, or if certain issues get projected and blamed externally.

For those who "have to explain things in terms of Jesus Christ as the only way to God"
then FORGIVENESS is that factor that is the determining key in saving people/relations.

 

[sealybobo]

Hi sealybobo:
1. RE:

I'm not assuming your brother, or anyone else, can't be good without religion. What I'm saying is that there's no evidence he or most anyone else would be better without religion, which is a pretty good paraphrase of your argument.

There is proof everywhere you look. Just like religious people say, "if ye look ye shall find".

1. For those who think "religions" do more harm than good,
I think this might change if people understood the process of "spiritual healing" which is natural and can be studied scientifically.

For one, the Christian prayers for deliverance from "demonic" voices and severely damaging and dangerous criminal addiction and mental and physical sickness
have saved lives that could not be helped with "just medicine alone" but required
a change in the person's ability to heal and to receive or comply with treatment.

If you count the people whose lives are saved, whose relationships and the good they can do for the world when they not only regain function but prosper in serving others,
I believe that would exceed the damages injustice and abuses caused by LACK of conscience.

For the negative consequences of abuse, these have an end because people cannot tolerate suffering and injustice, and will work and fight for change to correct the problems.

For the positive repercussions, these continue to multiply; whatever good is derived is then invested in the next person, relationship, generation or stage of growth, so that humanity improves and advances.

So I have more faith in the good that comes from things, while the bad is finite and has an end.

I've long thought it unfortunate that religious belief seems to be a requirement for the presidency. However, considering my cynicism when it comes to politicians, I don't actually think it's holding us back in any way.

What do you mean? I think our corrupt and religious politicians is a great example of how maybe we'd be better off if we weren't run by a bunch of greedy ignorant stupid fools. Look at every greedy ignorant politician and what do they all have in common? Democrat or Republican. What is the ONE thing they all have in common. They all believe in Jesus and 99% of them are christians. Do you think they are good people who should be leading our nation? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

2. Hey don't forget me. I am Christian by faith, and I work with a lot of good people who are trying to combine efforts to overcome the problems of abuses and waste going on now. Many of my Christian friends are the ones with faith to forgive and keep working on corrections. I know a LOT of people who would make great public officials and leaders, but first we have to organize the teamwork and groundwork, so by the time they serve on higher levels of govt, they don't fall into cracks or traps over divisive issues that should be resolved first before building public policy, reforms and programs.

As for the Christians who may be bad examples of corrupt politicians,
as long as they commit to follow the laws, then when it comes time for rebuke and correction IN PERSON, these followers will respond and there can be justice.

I have no problem working things out with people who commit with faith to the laws.
But most of the successful work to correct problems is done in person, not in public in front of others. (for example, when Herman Cain was addressed IN PERSON about statements he made about Muslims that were unfair, he accepted the correction and apologized; so did Ted Nugent when his peers sought to correct him, he accepted their advice and apologized in public, explaining how these were better people helping him. But when these same people are 'attacked by opponents in the public media' then they don't respond. So of course they look like hypocrites.)

Most of the problems come from bullying over conflicts "in public" to make a show.

So if you remove all that pecking order "alpha male/head of the pack" mentality,
and start treating people as equal peers with equal responsibility to fix problems
together, as partners or in teams, then you get different response and output.

if we rewarded, hired, and elected people to mediate, coordinate, and SOLVE problems then maybe
the Christian leaders with faith that issues and relations can be reconciled would get to demonstrate those skills.
People without unifying faith would not even believe in the process or positive outcome, much less leading it.

Placebo's work too. Just because some good has come from a lie doesn't mean we should continue telling the lie. And did you know that when you stub your toe yelling FUCK GOD DAMN will actually make you feel better? Cursing can actually override pain.

 

[GISMYS]

Hi sealybobo:
1. RE:

I'm not assuming your brother, or anyone else, can't be good without religion. What I'm saying is that there's no evidence he or most anyone else would be better without religion, which is a pretty good paraphrase of your argument.

1. For those who think "religions" do more harm than good,
I think this might change if people understood the process of "spiritual healing" which is natural and can be studied scientifically.

For one, the Christian prayers for deliverance from "demonic" voices and severely damaging and dangerous criminal addiction and mental and physical sickness
have saved lives that could not be helped with "just medicine alone" but required
a change in the person's ability to heal and to receive or comply with treatment.

If you count the people whose lives are saved, whose relationships and the good they can do for the world when they not only regain function but prosper in serving others,
I believe that would exceed the damages injustice and abuses caused by LACK of conscience.

For the negative consequences of abuse, these have an end because people cannot tolerate suffering and injustice, and will work and fight for change to correct the problems.

For the positive repercussions, these continue to multiply; whatever good is derived is then invested in the next person, relationship, generation or stage of growth, so that humanity improves and advances.

So I have more faith in the good that comes from things, while the bad is finite and has an end.

What do you mean? I think our corrupt and religious politicians is a great example of how maybe we'd be better off if we weren't run by a bunch of greedy ignorant stupid fools. Look at every greedy ignorant politician and what do they all have in common? Democrat or Republican. What is the ONE thing they all have in common. They all believe in Jesus and 99% of them are christians. Do you think they are good people who should be leading our nation? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

2. Hey don't forget me. I am Christian by faith, and I work with a lot of good people who are trying to combine efforts to overcome the problems of abuses and waste going on now. Many of my Christian friends are the ones with faith to forgive and keep working on corrections. I know a LOT of people who would make great public officials and leaders, but first we have to organize the teamwork and groundwork, so by the time they serve on higher levels of govt, they don't fall into cracks or traps over divisive issues that should be resolved first before building public policy, reforms and programs.

As for the Christians who may be bad examples of corrupt politicians,
as long as they commit to follow the laws, then when it comes time for rebuke and correction IN PERSON, these followers will respond and there can be justice.

I have no problem working things out with people who commit with faith to the laws.
But most of the successful work to correct problems is done in person, not in public in front of others. (for example, when Herman Cain was addressed IN PERSON about statements he made about Muslims that were unfair, he accepted the correction and apologized; so did Ted Nugent when his peers sought to correct him, he accepted their advice and apologized in public, explaining how these were better people helping him. But when these same people are 'attacked by opponents in the public media' then they don't respond. So of course they look like hypocrites.)

Most of the problems come from bullying over conflicts "in public" to make a show.

So if you remove all that pecking order "alpha male/head of the pack" mentality,
and start treating people as equal peers with equal responsibility to fix problems
together, as partners or in teams, then you get different response and output.

if we rewarded, hired, and elected people to mediate, coordinate, and SOLVE problems then maybe
the Christian leaders with faith that issues and relations can be reconciled would get to demonstrate those skills.
People without unifying faith would not even believe in the process or positive outcome, much less leading it.

Placebo's work too. Just because some good has come from a lie doesn't mean we should continue telling the lie. And did you know that when you stub your toe yelling FUCK GOD DAMN will actually make you feel better? Cursing can actually override pain.

A little pain now OR ETERNAL HELL!!!

 

[Montrovant]

I had a day off and saw two stories that made me think of you. One was on how stem cell is going to help spinal cord injuries. On behalf of all spinal cord patients, you and your god can go fuck yourselves.

And I thought this might interest you: Americans Would Rather Vote For A Philandering, Pot-Smoking President Than An Atheist One

I've long thought it unfortunate that religious belief seems to be a requirement for the presidency. However, considering my cynicism when it comes to politicians, I don't actually think it's holding us back in any way.

What do you mean? I think our corrupt and religious politicians is a great example of how maybe we'd be better off if we weren't run by a bunch of greedy ignorant stupid fools. Look at every greedy ignorant politician and what do they all have in common? Democrat or Republican. What is the ONE thing they all have in common. They all believe in Jesus and 99% of them are christians. Do you think they are good people who should be leading our nation? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

*sigh*

What I am saying, what seems so obvious to me, is that corruption is not exclusive to any religion, or to the religious. What I am saying is that I question the professed faith of many politicians; because it is important to voters to show faith, the politicians do, but I would guess quite a few of them simply mouth the words without meaning it. What I am saying is that greed, ignorance and stupidity have nothing to do with religious belief.

I would also say that Christians have not run the world for the last 2000 years. That you think they have shows your own ignorance as well as your bias and provincial thought process. I would also say that we have plenty of examples of purportedly atheist leaders committing terrible atrocities in recent history, so how has lack of religion prevented human greed, corruption or stupidity exactly?

I would say that even if believing in religion is an ignorant or stupid thing to do, that a person being ignorant or even stupid in regards to one thing does not necessarily speak to the entirety of that person. I'm confident that there are plenty of people who are, overall, very intelligent that you might find some particular views of theirs to be ignorant or stupid.

Finally, I would say that the more you post on this topic, the more you give the impression that you simply think anyone who doesn't agree with you about a subject with no definite answers must be an idiot.

 

[sealybobo]

lol!!! Satan sur got you on the cheap!!! He is playing you for a fool and using you as his puppet and tool!!!

Kewl;

What does he get out of the deal?

Satan WANTED TO BE GOD and he was cast out of heaven and now awaits final judgment,satan hates GOD and is here to kill and destroy GOD'S CREATION =MANKIND!!! Why help him??

There is no evidence to support any of the claims made in the Bible concerning the existence of a god. Any ‘evidence’ proposed by theists to support the Bible’s various historical and supernatural claims is non-existent at best, manufactured at worst.

The Bible is not self-authenticating; it is simply one of many religious texts. Like those others, it itself constitutes no evidence for the existence of a god. Its florid prose and fanciful content do not legitimise it nor distinguish it from other ancient works of literature.

The Bible is historically inaccurate, factually incorrect, inconsistent and contradictory. It was artificially constructed by a group of men in antiquity and is poorly translated, heavily altered and selectively interpreted. Entire sections of the text have been redacted over time.

I prayed for answers and this is what god told me. Don't get mad. This is exactly what god told Joseph Smith when he prayed in 1800 asking god what church he should join. God told him not to join any of them. "They are all shit" he said. He told him to start his own church. Do you believe that? You better or you'll go to hell.

 

[sealybobo]

I've long thought it unfortunate that religious belief seems to be a requirement for the presidency. However, considering my cynicism when it comes to politicians, I don't actually think it's holding us back in any way.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

*sigh*

What I am saying, what seems so obvious to me, is that corruption is not exclusive to any religion, or to the religious. What I am saying is that I question the professed faith of many politicians; because it is important to voters to show faith, the politicians do, but I would guess quite a few of them simply mouth the words without meaning it. What I am saying is that greed, ignorance and stupidity have nothing to do with religious belief.

I would also say that Christians have not run the world for the last 2000 years. That you think they have shows your own ignorance as well as your bias and provincial thought process. I would also say that we have plenty of examples of purportedly atheist leaders committing terrible atrocities in recent history, so how has lack of religion prevented human greed, corruption or stupidity exactly?

I would say that even if believing in religion is an ignorant or stupid thing to do, that a person being ignorant or even stupid in regards to one thing does not necessarily speak to the entirety of that person. I'm confident that there are plenty of people who are, overall, very intelligent that you might find some particular views of theirs to be ignorant or stupid.

Finally, I would say that the more you post on this topic, the more you give the impression that you simply think anyone who doesn't agree with you about a subject with no definite answers must be an idiot.

1. No I guess jews, muslims and atheists can all be evil, stupid and corrupt. True.
2. Christianity became common to all of Europe starting in the 5th century. Excuse the fuck out of me. 1600 fucking years not 2000. To be petty about points like this make me not want to reply to you anymore. Pathetic.
3. What nation is still being run by atheists? None. Looks like religion won. So how are those nations doing today? Fact is, and you don't seem to want to admit it, religion has been used in a lot of bad ways. Want some examples? Read my past posts.
4. I know a lot of smart people believe in God. The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

 

[emilynghiem]

YES!! AS MORE AND MORE AMERICANS CHOSE TO reject GOD and GOD'S love and forgivness and chose to live in open sin,America gets weaker and weaker.

Christians all possess anywhere from 1-7 of the 7 deadly sins. What sin do you guys not have that the rest of us have? Abortion and gays? You need to worry about your own sins my friend. Wake up and realize gays and abortion are just issues drummed up to get stupid middle class and poor voters like you to vote against their own financial interests.

Again SB it's NOT about external labels. it's about our internal ability to forgive and correct ourselves, and NOT project our issues outward as "ill will" to harm ourselves, our relations, others and society.

There are as many Christians who forgive as Atheists who forgive, and that's what saves us.

There are as many Christians who DON'T forgive and fall off the right path, as Atheists or Muslim or Buddhists. All people can get divided from each other and lose our common way.

What makes Jesus the center of faith is representing the collective and central process of forgiveness and correcting, to reach agreement on truth, for ALL PEOPLE universally.

So yes, that role is unique.

But at the same time, because this connection includes ALL humanity in all our diversity,
then all tribes, all people of all views and ways of perception and perspective in life,
may ALL express this SAME UNIVERSAL connection we have to one another
"in different ways." The truth that guides all humanity is both absolute, while it is expressed relatively and differently for each person.

So that is why we CANNOT judge by external labels or "association/affiliation" --
what we are on the outside, what we "call ourselves by group" is NOT what saves us.
What matters is the spirit in how we live and do things, which determines if we are acting as "neighbors in Christ" or not.
So atheists can have this, and be acting as the Good Samaritan in the right spirit, while some Christians may be missing it.

What we forgive and correct on the inside is what determines how we stand with
the laws of truth and justice that govern all humanity. our language for these
laws may vary with our culture and tradition.

What matters is how we stand and work WITH the spirit of the laws and the process
that governs all humanity, as human nature is universal.

If we are working WITH the direction of conscience toward truth and justice
that is WITH CHRIST as neighbors in the spirit of restorative justice with mercy for all.

if we work AGAINST the direction of truth and justice by conscience,
that is where we fall out in division, corruption and abuses
and need to correct these in order to restore agreement and relations
in good faith and good will.

If your intent and purpose is for good will, good faith relations, charity and compassion for all, that is universal and one with humanity joined in Christ or by conscience.

If you have ill will or any unforgiveness or negativity, that part is not of God and will be removed or corrected in the process of seeking peace by perfect truth love and justice.

 

[sealybobo]

I'm thinking about my friend who was bashing radical islam here in America. He was mistaking muslims and radical islam. Why? Because Bush, the Christian coalition and his foul ass church planted that in his head.

Today thank gosh we can doubt the existence of god without being murdered and we aren't so stupid that we allow our corrupt leaders to persecute muslim americans after 9-11 the same way we did japanese american's during ww2 after pearl harbor.

 

[emilynghiem]

Placebo's work too. Just because some good has come from a lie doesn't mean we should continue telling the lie. And did you know that when you stub your toe yelling FUCK GOD DAMN will actually make you feel better? Cursing can actually override pain.

No, placebos do not work in place of true forgiveness and the power and transformation that it brings in life. those changes are so deep, they cannot be faked.

NOBODY I know can fake or force "forgiveness" which is the key to the process working.
Forgiveness is only real and only works when it is "freely chosen."
The healing it brings is on a spiritual level that we do not control, we can only receive it as a natural process.

If you look up and compare studies on healing prayer,
there was a study done at Harvard that did NOT find any positive results; in fact, some of the people who participated in "intercessory prayer" ended up with worse results than none at all.
They were only studying the process on the outside, so this is like a placebo, where the internal work and process was not factored in.

Then look up the teachings about the healing process written, published and taught by successful practictioners like Dr. Francis MacNutt and Dr. Phillip Goldfedder who work on very deep levels.

The key factor is FORGIVENESS and letting go of all negativity attached to UNFORGIVEN conflicts or even past generations.

If you SKIP that step, the prayer and healing can easily fail!

So placebo praying in "words or actions only" DOES NOT WORK.
Dr. MacNutt explains this clearly in his book on HEALING why the process fails if
steps are skipped, such as by not identifying the root cause and making sure that is forgiven and resolved.

You have to do the deep spiritual work to receive forgiveness, on all levels,
to unblock the obstructions in order for mind body and spirit to heal naturally in full.

Nobody I know could ever fake curing people of demonic voices, but that is one application of spiritual healing that has succeeded where other methods fail.

So if you really want to study the most profound application of
Christian spiritual healing and why it has authority that other prayers don't have,
look at the books published and the studies or research on deliverance, exorcism, healing generational curses or strongholds.
You won't find people substituting other things as "placebos" where only concentrated prayers in the authority of Christ can overcome these ills.

I believe this field is where science can prove the process going on,
and show that it "correlates" unforgiveness with sickness
and forgiveness with healing (even if we cannot prove where this process is coming from)

For the truly seriously sick people that medicine cannot cure,
no amount of faking it is going to work. The healing has to be real
to handle the serious cases where people's spiritual blockages
are preventing the other levels of treatment from being applied or working.

This cannot be faked, because it will not bring healing but leave the person stuck
if they do not truly let go and receive full healing and forgiveness.

You can just look at the difference with people not truly over their addictions,
for example, and see where "faking it" leads to relapses. Only the people who
truly forgive and heal on all levels causing or contributing to their addiction can beat it.

Anything less and the problem comes back!
I've never known anyone who could fake that with a "placebo."

 

[sealybobo]

I've long thought it unfortunate that religious belief seems to be a requirement for the presidency. However, considering my cynicism when it comes to politicians, I don't actually think it's holding us back in any way.

What do you mean? I think our corrupt and religious politicians is a great example of how maybe we'd be better off if we weren't run by a bunch of greedy ignorant stupid fools. Look at every greedy ignorant politician and what do they all have in common? Democrat or Republican. What is the ONE thing they all have in common. They all believe in Jesus and 99% of them are christians. Do you think they are good people who should be leading our nation? I didn't think so.

I'm not going to argue it anymore with you. You're an atheist who defends how christians have run the world the last 2000 years?

*sigh*

What I am saying, what seems so obvious to me, is that corruption is not exclusive to any religion, or to the religious. What I am saying is that I question the professed faith of many politicians; because it is important to voters to show faith, the politicians do, but I would guess quite a few of them simply mouth the words without meaning it. What I am saying is that greed, ignorance and stupidity have nothing to do with religious belief.

I would also say that Christians have not run the world for the last 2000 years. That you think they have shows your own ignorance as well as your bias and provincial thought process. I would also say that we have plenty of examples of purportedly atheist leaders committing terrible atrocities in recent history, so how has lack of religion prevented human greed, corruption or stupidity exactly?

I would say that even if believing in religion is an ignorant or stupid thing to do, that a person being ignorant or even stupid in regards to one thing does not necessarily speak to the entirety of that person. I'm confident that there are plenty of people who are, overall, very intelligent that you might find some particular views of theirs to be ignorant or stupid.

Finally, I would say that the more you post on this topic, the more you give the impression that you simply think anyone who doesn't agree with you about a subject with no definite answers must be an idiot.

I guess I shouldn't generalize if I don't want it happening to me. But in general:


Atheists are not a homogeneous group. There is no formal moral code resulting from a lack of belief. Atheists generally derive their sense of right and wrong from an innate and reasoned understanding of which actions contribute towards a society most hospitable to continual well-being and personal fulfillment. They are accountable to their own conscience and to society at large.
Atheists ethics are not derived from some reward or punishment after death, but from a rational consideration of the consequences in this life. Impulsive desires are compassionately, empathetically and intelligently weighed against long term personal and social goals.

As social animals that have evolved to want and give love, to have freedom and security, we have learned that we are safer, stronger and more prosperous in a successful group. Crimes are inherently anti-social behaviors that introduce needless risk and are antithetical to the long-term needs and goals of a happy, stable society.

 

[sealybobo]

“I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world.” – Richard Dawkins

 

[sealybobo]

Hi sealybobo:
1. RE:


1. For those who think "religions" do more harm than good,
I think this might change if people understood the process of "spiritual healing" which is natural and can be studied scientifically.

For one, the Christian prayers for deliverance from "demonic" voices and severely damaging and dangerous criminal addiction and mental and physical sickness
have saved lives that could not be helped with "just medicine alone" but required
a change in the person's ability to heal and to receive or comply with treatment.

If you count the people whose lives are saved, whose relationships and the good they can do for the world when they not only regain function but prosper in serving others,
I believe that would exceed the damages injustice and abuses caused by LACK of conscience.

For the negative consequences of abuse, these have an end because people cannot tolerate suffering and injustice, and will work and fight for change to correct the problems.

For the positive repercussions, these continue to multiply; whatever good is derived is then invested in the next person, relationship, generation or stage of growth, so that humanity improves and advances.

So I have more faith in the good that comes from things, while the bad is finite and has an end.



2. Hey don't forget me. I am Christian by faith, and I work with a lot of good people who are trying to combine efforts to overcome the problems of abuses and waste going on now. Many of my Christian friends are the ones with faith to forgive and keep working on corrections. I know a LOT of people who would make great public officials and leaders, but first we have to organize the teamwork and groundwork, so by the time they serve on higher levels of govt, they don't fall into cracks or traps over divisive issues that should be resolved first before building public policy, reforms and programs.

As for the Christians who may be bad examples of corrupt politicians,
as long as they commit to follow the laws, then when it comes time for rebuke and correction IN PERSON, these followers will respond and there can be justice.

I have no problem working things out with people who commit with faith to the laws.
But most of the successful work to correct problems is done in person, not in public in front of others. (for example, when Herman Cain was addressed IN PERSON about statements he made about Muslims that were unfair, he accepted the correction and apologized; so did Ted Nugent when his peers sought to correct him, he accepted their advice and apologized in public, explaining how these were better people helping him. But when these same people are 'attacked by opponents in the public media' then they don't respond. So of course they look like hypocrites.)

Most of the problems come from bullying over conflicts "in public" to make a show.

So if you remove all that pecking order "alpha male/head of the pack" mentality,
and start treating people as equal peers with equal responsibility to fix problems
together, as partners or in teams, then you get different response and output.

if we rewarded, hired, and elected people to mediate, coordinate, and SOLVE problems then maybe
the Christian leaders with faith that issues and relations can be reconciled would get to demonstrate those skills.
People without unifying faith would not even believe in the process or positive outcome, much less leading it.

Placebo's work too. Just because some good has come from a lie doesn't mean we should continue telling the lie. And did you know that when you stub your toe yelling FUCK GOD DAMN will actually make you feel better? Cursing can actually override pain.

A little pain now OR ETERNAL HELL!!!

I've already told you that you can not scare me into believing your fairytale

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” – Charles Darwin

Or your confidence that jesus is real is laughable. You have added zero to this conversation other than proving people who believe in god are really stupid for doing so. Don't you need real hard evidence or proof or you will you just continue to believe a 2000 year fucking superstition/story. Your priest is dumb at best a liar at worse.

 

[GISMYS]

GOD'S WORD teaches you how you can have eternal life.

 

[sealybobo]

Hi sealybobo:
1. RE:


1. For those who think "religions" do more harm than good,
I think this might change if people understood the process of "spiritual healing" which is natural and can be studied scientifically.

For one, the Christian prayers for deliverance from "demonic" voices and severely damaging and dangerous criminal addiction and mental and physical sickness
have saved lives that could not be helped with "just medicine alone" but required
a change in the person's ability to heal and to receive or comply with treatment.

If you count the people whose lives are saved, whose relationships and the good they can do for the world when they not only regain function but prosper in serving others,
I believe that would exceed the damages injustice and abuses caused by LACK of conscience.

For the negative consequences of abuse, these have an end because people cannot tolerate suffering and injustice, and will work and fight for change to correct the problems.

For the positive repercussions, these continue to multiply; whatever good is derived is then invested in the next person, relationship, generation or stage of growth, so that humanity improves and advances.

So I have more faith in the good that comes from things, while the bad is finite and has an end.



2. Hey don't forget me. I am Christian by faith, and I work with a lot of good people who are trying to combine efforts to overcome the problems of abuses and waste going on now. Many of my Christian friends are the ones with faith to forgive and keep working on corrections. I know a LOT of people who would make great public officials and leaders, but first we have to organize the teamwork and groundwork, so by the time they serve on higher levels of govt, they don't fall into cracks or traps over divisive issues that should be resolved first before building public policy, reforms and programs.

As for the Christians who may be bad examples of corrupt politicians,
as long as they commit to follow the laws, then when it comes time for rebuke and correction IN PERSON, these followers will respond and there can be justice.

I have no problem working things out with people who commit with faith to the laws.
But most of the successful work to correct problems is done in person, not in public in front of others. (for example, when Herman Cain was addressed IN PERSON about statements he made about Muslims that were unfair, he accepted the correction and apologized; so did Ted Nugent when his peers sought to correct him, he accepted their advice and apologized in public, explaining how these were better people helping him. But when these same people are 'attacked by opponents in the public media' then they don't respond. So of course they look like hypocrites.)

Most of the problems come from bullying over conflicts "in public" to make a show.

So if you remove all that pecking order "alpha male/head of the pack" mentality,
and start treating people as equal peers with equal responsibility to fix problems
together, as partners or in teams, then you get different response and output.

if we rewarded, hired, and elected people to mediate, coordinate, and SOLVE problems then maybe
the Christian leaders with faith that issues and relations can be reconciled would get to demonstrate those skills.
People without unifying faith would not even believe in the process or positive outcome, much less leading it.

Placebo's work too. Just because some good has come from a lie doesn't mean we should continue telling the lie. And did you know that when you stub your toe yelling FUCK GOD DAMN will actually make you feel better? Cursing can actually override pain.

A little pain now OR ETERNAL HELL!!!

“What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.” – Christopher Hitchens

Hey, god told me you are the devil, wrong and to not listen to you.