Why should a hamburger flipper make the same as a highly skilled worker???

[Dragonlady]

Chile was a socialist country, not communist. But the U.S. feared another repeat of what happened in Cuba and backed the overthrow of the democratically elected government by Pinochet, who turned Chile into a free market capitalist utopia. But in order to do so, Pinochet killed anyone opposed to his reforms.

Close to 200,00 were killed or imprisoned and tortured.

Extreme Right wing dictatorships are every bit as brutal and repressive as extreme leftist governments. The only way extreme governments can survive is by killing those who oppose them.

 

[Ame®icano]

Chile was a socialist country, not communist. But the U.S. feared another repeat of what happened in Cuba and backed the overthrow of the democratically elected government by Pinochet, who turned Chile into a free market capitalist utopia. But in order to do so, Pinochet killed anyone opposed to his reforms.

Close to 200,00 were killed or imprisoned and tortured.

Extreme Right wing dictatorships are every bit as brutal and repressive as extreme leftist governments. The only way extreme governments can survive is by killing those who oppose them.

Communism never came peacefully, it was always forced on people. In 1964 Chile had communist revolution, right? You can call them socialists, and thats fine... remember, USSR was socialist too.

 

[ShaklesOfBigGov]

Just how easy is it for someone to simply "walk off the street" and fill your position? How vulnerable and replaceable are you? How much skills and knowledge have you obtained to be able to effectively perform at your job? Are you willing to work late, way past your convenient 8 hour shift, if deadlines and necessity of your job requires it?

These are the questions that need to dictate the potential of how much you earn. Simply demanding a greater salary or paycheck out of "jealousy" over what someone else earns, just shows how much effort and education some people are willing to invest to advance themselves towards a better way of life.

Your pay scale should be relative to the value of the work you do. How much can your employer sell your work for versus the total cost of production, including your labor? If you make hamburgers which sell for an average of $3.00 each, and you can make 100 burgers in an hour, the value of your work is $300.00 per hour. There are other costs associated with the production of the burgers, such as the cost of the ingredients and packaging, lease payments for the buildings, equipment costs, advertising and promotion, etc. If you are paid minimum wage, you are paid 7 cents for each burger you make. If your wages were to increase to $10.00 per hour, you would be receiving 10 cents for each burger you make.

It shouldn't matter how many others people would be willing to do your job for less, or the skill level required to do the work, what should matter is the value of your work. When you produce a product for sale, such as making burgers, it's relatively easy to calculate the value of your work. What we have seen is that while the retail price of the burgers has risen, as have all of the other costs associated with their production and sale have risen, the wages of the people making the burgers has not. Management pay has risen, and executive pay has skyrocketed, although management and executives aren't being more massively more productive than in the past, but the frontline workers who make the products sold, have not. It's not jealousy or envy for workers to ask that their wages go up as well.

Thats not a valid argument. I understand what things should be like but thats not how it works. Some people simply are more valuable than others when it comes to producing income and value for their employers. Basically what you are saying is that it should always be perfect weather but thats not how it works out in reality.

You mean lawyers, doctors, robotics technicians don't earn more than someone working as a cashier in 7-11? I think that point alone makes my argument valid.

 

[Dragonlady]

Your worth or value is based on how replaceable you are, which is why people "invest" in a college education or an additional trade skill for themselves. This is the standard by which pay scale should be derived. If everyone thought they simply should be paid by what they "feel" they are worth, everyone can have their own perception of worry without any standard to go by. How much is a college degree worth to you? How much value is in a specified skill or management training? By your definition these hold not additional value or incentive but it's based upon production alone ... completely ludicrous. If you want to earn more, learn a skill, INVEST in yourself instead of complaining because it's far earlier not to take that time to do so. You earn based on your knowledge, education, and specialty ... as it should be. Doctors receive an extensive long tiring education, work long hours, in highly stressful environment ... THEY are the workers that deserve a higher pay far above a burger flipper. What stress is involved in putting a burger between two buns? I mean, let's be realistic here and do the comparison.

I'm well aware that the massive availability of people willing to work for any amount of money they can makes it easy to replace those who want a fair wage. That's the "free market" that conservatives tout as ideal. But if workers require massive amounts of social assistance to work for these wages, that's hardly fair to the taxpayers.

I don't want to subsidize Walmart or MacDonalds. Both corporations are massively profitable and their workers should be paid well enough that they don't qualify for assistance. If these were marginal corporations barely hanging on, I would consider assisting them for a time, but if they couldn't pay a living wage, they should be allowed to fail.

The massive off-shore movement has left a lot of people without jobs. Not everyone is in a position to go back to school and upgrade their skills. If you have a family, a mortgage, and financial responsibilities, where are you going to get the money to sustain your family while you upgrade?

There should be jobs available across the pay spectrum, not just for college grads and minimum wage.

 

[bripat9643]

Yeah, we know, every attempt to implement communism is flawed in some way. Of course, every attempt to draw a triangle with four sides is also "flawed." Has anyone ever draw one?

I rest my case.

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

Yet, flawed capitalism is the dominant socioeconomic model the world has chosen rather than failed flawed communism.

Social democracy is the dominant socioeconomic model. Pure capitalism results in great poverty and great wealth and nothing in between. And it relies on brutality stifling the leftists in pretty much the same way as Stalin ended right wing opposition in Russia.

The poorest people under capitalism are better off than the bulk of the population under socialism. What "brutality" has capitalism inflicted on any leftist, arresting them for trespassing on private property?

The closest thing we've seen to pure capitalism is Chile in the 1970's. One of the most repressive dictatorships of the last century.

Chile is the most prosperous country in Latin America with the highest standard of living. Oh those poor poor Chileans! They have suffered so much under capitalism! I'm sure they would much rather live in a country like Venezuela or Cuba. Yeah, Pinochet was far worse than Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao. Are you serious?

You're a comedy act.

 

[Dragonlady]

Chile was a socialist country, not communist. But the U.S. feared another repeat of what happened in Cuba and backed the overthrow of the democratically elected government by Pinochet, who turned Chile into a free market capitalist utopia. But in order to do so, Pinochet killed anyone opposed to his reforms.

Close to 200,00 were killed or imprisoned and tortured.

Extreme Right wing dictatorships are every bit as brutal and repressive as extreme leftist governments. The only way extreme governments can survive is by killing those who oppose them.

Communism never came peacefully, it was always forced on people. In 1964 Chile had communist revolution, right? You can call them socialists, and thats fine... remember, USSR was socialist too.

Allende was the democratically elected President of Chile. There was no revolution. Pinochet overthrew the elected government with the backing of the CIA. Milton Friedman himself provided the Pinochet government with the economic framework for the new Chile.

 

[bripat9643]

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

The enslavement of Africans was not a "flaw"?

No, of course not, it was just a "good" business decision.

Slavery isn't a feature of capitalism. Slavery is as old as humanity. Blaming slavery on capitalism is like blaming small pox on capitalism. Capitalism ended slavery. It didn't create it.

 

[bripat9643]

Chile was a socialist country, not communist. But the U.S. feared another repeat of what happened in Cuba and backed the overthrow of the democratically elected government by Pinochet, who turned Chile into a free market capitalist utopia. But in order to do so, Pinochet killed anyone opposed to his reforms.

Close to 200,00 were killed or imprisoned and tortured.

Extreme Right wing dictatorships are every bit as brutal and repressive as extreme leftist governments. The only way extreme governments can survive is by killing those who oppose them.

Communism never came peacefully, it was always forced on people. In 1964 Chile had communist revolution, right? You can call them socialists, and thats fine... remember, USSR was socialist too.

Allende was the democratically elected President of Chile. There was no revolution. Pinochet overthrew the elected government with the backing of the CIA. Milton Friedman himself provided the Pinochet government with the economic framework for the new Chile.

That's a pile of leftist propaganda.

Pinochet was about to convert Chile into a Soviet client state. The Pinochet coup was a defensive action and a direct response to formal requests by the Judiciary, the Legislature, and prominent citizens for military intervention as the situation under Salvador Allende were rapidly deteriorating. By 1980, the Chilean people voted 68 per cent to approve a new constitution presented by the Pinochet government.

Documents and arms captured after Allende was overthrown, Sept. 11, 1973 proved that he was planning a coup of his own scheduled for Sept. 19, and to liquidate his opposition Castro style. Pinochet, who had served Allende as Army Chief of Staff during his three years in power, acted strictly out of a sense of duty and honor, and at great personal risk given Allende’s extensive Gestapo, to save his nation from catastrophe. Pinochet was the quintessential career military man and had no ambition to involve himself in civilian affairs. Due to a traditional Latin American code of honor, he felt he had no choice.

On Sept 8, days after the coup, at a ceremony at the Church of National Gratitude, three former Chilean presidents endorsed the Pinochet government. Socialist Gabriel Gonzalez Videla stated "I have no words to thank the armed forces for having freed us from the clutches of Marxism. They have saved us…because the totalitarian apparatus that was prepared to destroy us has been itself destroyed" Eduardo Frei, himself a Marxist, stated "The military has saved Chile and all of us…a civil war was being well prepared by the Marxists. And that is what the world does not know, refuses to know".

Pinochet, once in power, acted with amazing restraint toward those who were plotting a Communist takeover. Allende declined his offer of safe passage and instead chose suicide. He deported thousands of Communist foreigners who were planning firing squads if they achieved power, and released Chilean citizens involved in treasonous activities including the dangerous KGB and Cuban agent, as well as darling of the American left establishment, Orlando Letelier.

 

[Dragonlady]

Yeah, we know, every attempt to implement communism is flawed in some way. Of course, every attempt to draw a triangle with four sides is also "flawed." Has anyone ever draw one?

I rest my case.

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

Yet, flawed capitalism is the dominant socioeconomic model the world has chosen rather than failed flawed communism.

Social democracy is the dominant socioeconomic model. Pure capitalism results in great poverty and great wealth and nothing in between. And it relies on brutality stifling the leftists in pretty much the same way as Stalin ended right wing opposition in Russia.

The poorest people under capitalism are better off than the bulk of the population under socialism. What "brutality" has capitalism inflicted on any leftist, arresting them for trespassing on private property?

The closest thing we've seen to pure capitalism is Chile in the 1970's. One of the most repressive dictatorships of the last century.

Chile is the most prosperous country in Latin America with the highest standard of living. Oh those poor poor Chileans! They have suffered so much under capitalism! I'm sure they would much rather live in a country like Venezuela or Cuba. Yeah, Pinochet was far worse than Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao. Are you serious?

You're a comedy act.

Chileans didn't prosper under Pinochet. Quite the opposite. Wages dropped, prices rose. The rich got fabulously wealthy and the poor died miserably. Capitalism has boom and bust cycles, under which the poor survive during boom times, and suffer when the bubbles burst.

Under capitalism, poor people get poorer. In a social democracy, the boom and bust cycles are blunted by the social safety net. It is the social safety net that keeps the poor from suffering.

You need to study history and economics.

 

[bripat9643]

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Yeah they have. Chile in the 1970's: they rounded up all of the lawyers, university professors and other leftists, took them to a soccer stadium and shot them. Thousands of people were killed in the centre of the capital.

That's a communist myth. You're propagating communist propaganda. That's not surprising since you're obviously a communist.

In Argentina people were "disappeared". They would be picked up off the streets in unmarked cars and never seen again. Argentines still hate Ford, who supplied the cars to the regime. It's estimated that 30,000 people were murdered.

Chile was fighting a civil war against foreign communists infiltrators and their supporters. These communists were trying to convert Chile into a Soviet client state. During a civil war, people get killed, you know, as in the American Civil war where Lincoln killed 850,000 Americans. Pinochet's methods were positively benign compared to Abraham Lincoln's.

 

[bripat9643]

Yeah, we know, every attempt to implement communism is flawed in some way. Of course, every attempt to draw a triangle with four sides is also "flawed." Has anyone ever draw one?

I rest my case.

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

Yet, flawed capitalism is the dominant socioeconomic model the world has chosen rather than failed flawed communism.

Social democracy is the dominant socioeconomic model. Pure capitalism results in great poverty and great wealth and nothing in between. And it relies on brutality stifling the leftists in pretty much the same way as Stalin ended right wing opposition in Russia.

The poorest people under capitalism are better off than the bulk of the population under socialism. What "brutality" has capitalism inflicted on any leftist, arresting them for trespassing on private property?

The closest thing we've seen to pure capitalism is Chile in the 1970's. One of the most repressive dictatorships of the last century.

Chile is the most prosperous country in Latin America with the highest standard of living. Oh those poor poor Chileans! They have suffered so much under capitalism! I'm sure they would much rather live in a country like Venezuela or Cuba. Yeah, Pinochet was far worse than Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao. Are you serious?

You're a comedy act.

Chileans didn't prosper under Pinochet. Quite the opposite. Wages dropped, prices rose. The rich got fabulously wealthy and the poor died miserably. Capitalism has boom and bust cycles, under which the poor survive during boom times, and suffer when the bubbles burst.

That's just a flat out lie. How did Chile become the wealthiest country in Latin America if it didn't prosper? That's pretty much the definition of "prosper," isn't it?

Under capitalism, poor people get poorer. In a social democracy, the boom and bust cycles are blunted by the social safety net. It is the social safety net that keeps the poor from suffering.

You need to study history and economics.

Under capitalism everyone gets richer. Under the welfare state, the economy stagnates and a permanent underclass dependent on government handout develops. Then morons like you blame it on capitalism.

I read history, not propaganda.

 

[Marxist]

Yeah, we know, every attempt to implement communism is flawed in some way. Of course, every attempt to draw a triangle with four sides is also "flawed." Has anyone ever draw one?

I rest my case.

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Utter bullshit. Are you ignoring slavery? Child labor? Shifting to third world countries to avoid regulations and exploit workers? The dictators put in place by capitalist nations? The pointless wars?

 

[Marxist]

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Yeah they have. Chile in the 1970's: they rounded up all of the lawyers, university professors and other leftists, took them to a soccer stadium and shot them. Thousands of people were killed in the centre of the capital.

That's a communist myth. You're propagating communist propaganda. That's not surprising since you're obviously a communist.

In Argentina people were "disappeared". They would be picked up off the streets in unmarked cars and never seen again. Argentines still hate Ford, who supplied the cars to the regime. It's estimated that 30,000 people were murdered.

Chile was fighting a civil war against foreign communists infiltrators and their supporters. These communists were trying to convert Chile into a Soviet client state. During a civil war, people get killed, you know, as in the American Civil war where Lincoln killed 850,000 Americans. Pinochet's methods were positively benign compared to Abraham Lincoln's.

It's a communist myth??? Are you fucking kidding me! Oh, so it's ok if capitalists kill people in a war, but let's start calling lenin a genocidal maniac when he killed people during a war. Communist propaganda.. I'm not one to deny history, unlike this nut tard. 1973 Chilean coup d tat - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

 

[bripat9643]

Yeah, we know, every attempt to implement communism is flawed in some way. Of course, every attempt to draw a triangle with four sides is also "flawed." Has anyone ever draw one?

I rest my case.

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Utter bullshit. Are you ignoring slavery? Child labor? Shifting to third world countries to avoid regulations and exploit workers? The dictators put in place by capitalist nations? The pointless wars?

Slavery and child labor existed for thousands of years before capitalism. What capitalism "shifts" to third world countries is good paying jobs where the locals can make far more than they could working for any domestic employer. Dictators have also been around since time immemorial, but a capitalist dictator is 1000 times better than a communist dictator. The people of Cuba were far better off under Batiste than they have been under Castro.

 

[Marxist]

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

Yet, flawed capitalism is the dominant socioeconomic model the world has chosen rather than failed flawed communism.

Social democracy is the dominant socioeconomic model. Pure capitalism results in great poverty and great wealth and nothing in between. And it relies on brutality stifling the leftists in pretty much the same way as Stalin ended right wing opposition in Russia.

The poorest people under capitalism are better off than the bulk of the population under socialism. What "brutality" has capitalism inflicted on any leftist, arresting them for trespassing on private property?

The closest thing we've seen to pure capitalism is Chile in the 1970's. One of the most repressive dictatorships of the last century.

Chile is the most prosperous country in Latin America with the highest standard of living. Oh those poor poor Chileans! They have suffered so much under capitalism! I'm sure they would much rather live in a country like Venezuela or Cuba. Yeah, Pinochet was far worse than Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao. Are you serious?

You're a comedy act.

Chileans didn't prosper under Pinochet. Quite the opposite. Wages dropped, prices rose. The rich got fabulously wealthy and the poor died miserably. Capitalism has boom and bust cycles, under which the poor survive during boom times, and suffer when the bubbles burst.

That's just a flat out lie. How did Chile become the wealthiest country in Latin America if it didn't prosper? That's pretty much the definition of "prosper," isn't it?

Under capitalism, poor people get poorer. In a social democracy, the boom and bust cycles are blunted by the social safety net. It is the social safety net that keeps the poor from suffering.

You need to study history and economics.

Under capitalism everyone gets richer. Under the welfare state, the economy stagnates and a permanent underclass dependent on government handout develops. Then morons like you blame it on capitalism.

I read history, not propaganda.

You completely ignoring the part when the poor suffer when the bubble bursts, as shown throughout history.
1973 Chilean coup d tat - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - History, you little idiot.
http://chilepd7.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/8/6/18866608/3547659_orig.jpg - Doesn't look "wealthy" to your capitalist standard you moan all day about.
The welfare state? Tell me all about nordic countries.

 

[Marxist]

Yeah, we know, every attempt to implement communism is flawed in some way. Of course, every attempt to draw a triangle with four sides is also "flawed." Has anyone ever draw one?

I rest my case.

every attempt to implement capitalism has been flawed in some way.

You seem to want to forget America was built on a foundation of slavery and genocide of the Native Americans, but man, you can't stop talking about those Stalin Purges.

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Utter bullshit. Are you ignoring slavery? Child labor? Shifting to third world countries to avoid regulations and exploit workers? The dictators put in place by capitalist nations? The pointless wars?

Slavery and child labor existed for thousands of years before capitalism. What capitalism "shifts" to third world countries is good paying jobs where the locals can make far more than they could working for any domestic employer. Dictators have also been around since time immemorial, but a capitalist dictator is 1000 times better than a communist dictator. The people of Cuba were far better off under Batiste than they have been under Castro.

Slavery was directly supported by capitalists to gain a profit, as was child labor. Capitalism doesn't shift good paying jobs.. you have to be blind to think this is true. Let's not forget that capitalists literally cannot afford to let third world countries begin to develop labor groups to demand wage increases, etc... A capitalist dictator is 1000 times better? BETTER UNDER BATISTE??????? WHAT THE FUCK. LOL.

Back in power, Batista suspended the 1940 Constitution and revoked most political liberties, including the right to strike. He then aligned with the wealthiest landowners who owned the largest sugar plantations, and presided over a stagnating economy that widened the gap between rich and poor Cubans.[5] Batista's increasingly corrupt and repressive government then began to systematically profit from the exploitation of Cuba's commercial interests, by negotiating lucrative relationships with the American mafia, who controlled the drug, gambling, and prostitution businesses in Havana, and with large multinational American corporations that had invested considerable amounts of money in Cuba.[5][6] To quell the growing discontent amongst the populace—which was subsequently displayed through frequent student riots and demonstrations—Batista established tighter censorship of the media, while also utilizing his anti-Communist secret policeto carry out wide-scale violence, torture and public executions; ultimately killing anywhere from 1,000 to 20,000 people.[7][8] For several years until 1959, the Batista government received financial, military, and logistical support from the United States.[9]

 

[bripat9643]

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Yeah they have. Chile in the 1970's: they rounded up all of the lawyers, university professors and other leftists, took them to a soccer stadium and shot them. Thousands of people were killed in the centre of the capital.

That's a communist myth. You're propagating communist propaganda. That's not surprising since you're obviously a communist.

In Argentina people were "disappeared". They would be picked up off the streets in unmarked cars and never seen again. Argentines still hate Ford, who supplied the cars to the regime. It's estimated that 30,000 people were murdered.

Chile was fighting a civil war against foreign communists infiltrators and their supporters. These communists were trying to convert Chile into a Soviet client state. During a civil war, people get killed, you know, as in the American Civil war where Lincoln killed 850,000 Americans. Pinochet's methods were positively benign compared to Abraham Lincoln's.

It's a communist myth??? Are you fucking kidding me! Oh, so it's ok if capitalists kill people in a war, but let's start calling lenin a genocidal maniac when he killed people during a war. Communist propaganda.. I'm not one to deny history, unlike this nut tard. 1973 Chilean coup d tat - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Your cite mentions nothing about any soccer stadium where traitors were executed. It also says the number of traitors killed during the civil war was only 3,000. That's a small fraction of Lincoln's 850,000, wouldn't you agree?

Almost everything you believe is a communist myth. It's propaganda.

 

[Marxist]

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Yeah they have. Chile in the 1970's: they rounded up all of the lawyers, university professors and other leftists, took them to a soccer stadium and shot them. Thousands of people were killed in the centre of the capital.

That's a communist myth. You're propagating communist propaganda. That's not surprising since you're obviously a communist.

In Argentina people were "disappeared". They would be picked up off the streets in unmarked cars and never seen again. Argentines still hate Ford, who supplied the cars to the regime. It's estimated that 30,000 people were murdered.

Chile was fighting a civil war against foreign communists infiltrators and their supporters. These communists were trying to convert Chile into a Soviet client state. During a civil war, people get killed, you know, as in the American Civil war where Lincoln killed 850,000 Americans. Pinochet's methods were positively benign compared to Abraham Lincoln's.

It's a communist myth??? Are you fucking kidding me! Oh, so it's ok if capitalists kill people in a war, but let's start calling lenin a genocidal maniac when he killed people during a war. Communist propaganda.. I'm not one to deny history, unlike this nut tard. 1973 Chilean coup d tat - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Your cite mentions nothing about any soccer stadium where traitors were executed. It also says the number of traitors killed during the civil war was only 3,000. That's a small fraction of Lincoln's 850,000, wouldn't you agree?

Almost everything you believe is a communist myth. It's propaganda.

The worst violence occurred within the first three months of the coup, with the number of suspected leftists killed or "disappeared" (desaparecidos) reaching several thousand.[18] In the days immediately following the coup, the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs informed Henry Kissinger that the National Stadium was being used to hold 5,000 prisoners, and as late as 1975, the CIA was still reporting that up to 3,811 were still imprisoned there.[19] Between the day of the coup and November 1973, as many as 40,000 political prisoners were held there.[20][21] 1,850 of them were killed, another 1,300 are missing since then.[21]Some of the most famous cases of desaparecidos are Charles Horman, a U.S. citizen who was killed during the coup itself,[22] Chilean songwriter Víctor Jara, and the October 1973 Caravan of Death (Caravana de la Muerte) where at least 70 persons were killed. Among the most infamous methods of murder involved Pinochet's henchmen dropping pregnant women out of aeroplanes. He believed this was a way of avenging soldiers killed by Allende's supporters. He was quoted to have said "If you kill the bitch, you kill off the offspring."[23] Other instances of systematic murder include Operation Colombo and Operation Condor.

That's just the accepted numbers, we'll never know the actual numbers. Why do you keep bringing up lincoln?

 

[bripat9643]

Yet, flawed capitalism is the dominant socioeconomic model the world has chosen rather than failed flawed communism.

Social democracy is the dominant socioeconomic model. Pure capitalism results in great poverty and great wealth and nothing in between. And it relies on brutality stifling the leftists in pretty much the same way as Stalin ended right wing opposition in Russia.

The poorest people under capitalism are better off than the bulk of the population under socialism. What "brutality" has capitalism inflicted on any leftist, arresting them for trespassing on private property?

The closest thing we've seen to pure capitalism is Chile in the 1970's. One of the most repressive dictatorships of the last century.

Chile is the most prosperous country in Latin America with the highest standard of living. Oh those poor poor Chileans! They have suffered so much under capitalism! I'm sure they would much rather live in a country like Venezuela or Cuba. Yeah, Pinochet was far worse than Stalin, Pol Pot or Mao. Are you serious?

You're a comedy act.

Chileans didn't prosper under Pinochet. Quite the opposite. Wages dropped, prices rose. The rich got fabulously wealthy and the poor died miserably. Capitalism has boom and bust cycles, under which the poor survive during boom times, and suffer when the bubbles burst.

That's just a flat out lie. How did Chile become the wealthiest country in Latin America if it didn't prosper? That's pretty much the definition of "prosper," isn't it?

Under capitalism, poor people get poorer. In a social democracy, the boom and bust cycles are blunted by the social safety net. It is the social safety net that keeps the poor from suffering.

You need to study history and economics.

Under capitalism everyone gets richer. Under the welfare state, the economy stagnates and a permanent underclass dependent on government handout develops. Then morons like you blame it on capitalism.

I read history, not propaganda.

You completely ignoring the part when the poor suffer when the bubble bursts, as shown throughout history.
1973 Chilean coup d tat - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia - History, you little idiot.
http://chilepd7.weebly.com/uploads/1/8/8/6/18866608/3547659_orig.jpg - Doesn't look "wealthy" to your capitalist standard you moan all day about.
The welfare state? Tell me all about nordic countries.

Those "bubbles" are the result of government following policies endorsed by morons like you. Even taking the bubbles into consideration, the vast majority of people are far better off under capitalism than under socialism.

Virtually all the wealth we enjoy today is the product of capitalism. Computers, flat screen televisions, cell phones, automobiles, electric lighting, anaesthesia, yada, yada, yada. All these advances occurred in capitalist countries, not in some people's republic like Venezuela.

 

[Marxist]

The "flaws" of capitalism haven't included gulags, mass murder or starvation. In fact, all the flaws are the result of creeps like you trying to push it towards socialism.

Yeah they have. Chile in the 1970's: they rounded up all of the lawyers, university professors and other leftists, took them to a soccer stadium and shot them. Thousands of people were killed in the centre of the capital.

That's a communist myth. You're propagating communist propaganda. That's not surprising since you're obviously a communist.

In Argentina people were "disappeared". They would be picked up off the streets in unmarked cars and never seen again. Argentines still hate Ford, who supplied the cars to the regime. It's estimated that 30,000 people were murdered.

Chile was fighting a civil war against foreign communists infiltrators and their supporters. These communists were trying to convert Chile into a Soviet client state. During a civil war, people get killed, you know, as in the American Civil war where Lincoln killed 850,000 Americans. Pinochet's methods were positively benign compared to Abraham Lincoln's.

It's a communist myth??? Are you fucking kidding me! Oh, so it's ok if capitalists kill people in a war, but let's start calling lenin a genocidal maniac when he killed people during a war. Communist propaganda.. I'm not one to deny history, unlike this nut tard. 1973 Chilean coup d tat - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Your cite mentions nothing about any soccer stadium where traitors were executed. It also says the number of traitors killed during the civil war was only 3,000. That's a small fraction of Lincoln's 850,000, wouldn't you agree?

Almost everything you believe is a communist myth. It's propaganda.

History isn't propaganda.